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ComfortMyPeople

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  1. Upvote
    ComfortMyPeople reacted to Pudgy in Are JWs in America back on the 'door to door' work now ?   
    When I posted this article, it was not directed at anyone. I posted it because it was JW news that was not available on the JW.org website, no more.
    Topic was not considered, by me.
    If Elon Musk was a “closet” JW, that too, would have been news, probably not on the JW. org website.
     
  2. Upvote
    ComfortMyPeople got a reaction from Thinking in Biblical King-of-the-North (KON) and King-of-the-South (KOS), and GOG and MAGOG, too!   
    Several problems arise when we approach Da 11 from a preterist or historicist perspective.
    First of all, I believe that the first mistake in approaching this prophecy (along with those of Revelation) is to try to apply them to events "of the present moment" as soon as we think we determine that some piece fits in the puzzle, only to discover some time later that we have to readjust (Zenobia, for example).
    A problem that we JW's have is that since everything pivots around 1914 we try to make the key turn in that lock, closing our eyes to any other possibility. Actually, it must be admitted that there are two possibilities.
    1. Everything was fulfilled at the time of the Hellenic kings who influenced Israel, mainly Antiochus IV Epiphanes 2. Much of what we believe has already been accomplished is still in the future and must be fulfilled. I am only going to get involved at this point with point 1.
    DANIEL 11:25-27
    Scholars mention that these passages have to do with some Syrian wars (KoN) against the Ptolemies (KoS) but they are not sure what specific events.
    Until recently we talked about Queen Zenobia and her generals as antagonists of Rome and KoS. Now, we see in these verses the German Empire and its defeat in the IWW
    ...And so on. Scholars focusing on Syria-Egypt, JW's on 20th and 21st century events.
    WHY ANTIOCUS IV IS NOT THE GREAT PROTAGONIST OF DANIEL 11
    Daniel 11:40-45
    This is in no way related to the acts of Antiochus or any other Hellenic KoN. Numerous commentators apply these words to a character related to the Antichrist.
    Daniel 11:45
    When biblical scholars try to apply this passage to the death of the Syrian king they have to admit that Daniel (or a pseudo-Daniel) was wrong, since the king is known not to die in the Promised Land ("of Decoration")
    Daniel 11:31b
    Although many think that this refers to the desecration of the temple by this impious king, as collected in the Maccabean books, Jesus Christ himself (Mat 24:15 and Mr 13:14) applies it to the future, not to events of the 2nd century BC .

     
  3. Upvote
    ComfortMyPeople reacted to JW Insider in Are JWs in America back on the 'door to door' work now ?   
    This is exactly the point. Thanks. The Watchtower has ALWAYS turned the generation into a zone of dates. When the Watchtower's previous zone of dates was no longer tenable, there was an excellent opportunity to understand it in the way that Robert Wohl would have described it. But instead, it became a zone of dates again when it was "determined" that the great tribulation must occur within the zone of dates before a younger generation of anointed (whose lives overlapped with the earlier generation of anointed) would themselves die out:
    *** w10 6/15 p. 5 United in Love—Annual Meeting Report ***
    Brother Barr made clear that the gathering would not continue indefinitely. He referred to Matthew 24:34, which says: “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” He twice read the comment: “Jesus evidently meant that the lives of the anointed ones who were on hand when the sign began to be evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation.” We do not know the exact length of “this generation,” but it includes these two groups whose lives overlap. Even though the anointed vary in age, those in the two groups constituting the generation are contemporaries during part of the last days. How comforting it is to know that the younger anointed contemporaries of those older anointed ones who discerned the sign when it became evident beginning in 1914 will not die off before the great tribulation starts!
    As Brother Splane has explained, by using a chart, that generation has now become a zone of dates from 1914 (through at least 1992 when Fred Franz died) and then extending only so far out as to when the last of the once-contemporary, younger "generation" of anointed have not completely died out.
    That definition, although very specific, has become rather sloppy in the retelling. Just note the following two points that are now part of the explanation. I'll mark in red, the points that are problematic:
    *** ws14 1/15 pp. 30-31 pars. 14-16 “Let Your Kingdom Come”—But When? ***
    When prophecy was not fulfilled in the way that they expected in 1914, what did they do? Most of them continued serving Jehovah faithfully and endured trials and persecution. Over the years, most, if not all, of those anointed ones have remained faithful until death.
    15 In his prophecy about the last days of Satan’s world, Jesus said: “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen.” (Read Matthew 24:33-35.) When Jesus mentioned “this generation,” we understand that he was speaking about two groups of anointed Christians. The first group was present in 1914 and understood that Christ began ruling as King in that year. Those who made up this group were not only alive in 1914, but they had also been anointed by holy spirit in or before that year.—Romans 8:14-17.
    16 All those in the second group included in “this generation” were not simply alive but were anointed with holy spirit during the time that some members of the first group were still alive on earth. So not every anointed person today is included in “this generation” whom Jesus spoke about. Today, those in the second group are getting older. Yet, Jesus’ words at Matthew 24:34 make us confident that at least some of “this generation will by no means pass away” before seeing the start of the great tribulation.
    '...most, if not all..."
    I'm not sure about the purpose of the claim made here, but the early Watchtowers indicated that "most" of the anointed during the period leading up to 1914 actually left the Watchtower Society. Many left immediately after 1914 failed to include the predictions for that year. (The Watchtower later pointed to 1915 as the actual date for the end of the Gentile Times.)  A much larger portion left during the 1917-1918 period based on the actions taken by Rutherford. By 1927-1928 when so many of Russell's teachings had been abandoned, it was apparently "MOST" of those who had been considered anointed in 1914 who had left the Watchtower Society by then. A few exceptions actually came back to the Watchtower. Long-time Governing Body member, Brother Karl Klein, left the Watchtower to join the Standfasters (Part of the "evil slave," per Rutherford), but Brother Klein came back. Listening to the stories and experiences from Karl Klein and Fred Franz and my great-grandfather, and one-time colporteur Percy Harding, they all claimed that it was MOST of the anointed who had been unfaithful, at least to the Watchtower. If the Watchtower's statement above is correct, it must be based on the idea that they were still faithful to Jehovah even after leaving the Watchtower Society, or that those who left were never anointed in the first place.
    This is reminiscent of the claim made in 1982 about the earlier Liberian persecution:
    *** w82 4/15 p. 26 par. 19 Enduring Joyfully Despite Persecution ***
    While a few did give way and compromise because of fear, the great majority maintained integrity.
    After that claim was made, someone pointed out the error and a correction was printed:
    *** w82 7/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
    . . . However, the Yearbook for 1977 states that the majority compromised their faith. Why this discrepancy?
    The statement in The Watchtower for April 15, 1982, is in error. Actually, according to the Yearbook of 1977, pages 176 and 178, there were about 100 Liberian Witnesses who went through the Gbarnga persecution maintaining integrity, while approximately 200 compromised their faith.
    "The first group was present in 1914 and understood that Christ began ruling as King in that year."
    I think that all of us know the problem with this claim. The first group that was present in 1914 did NOT understand that Christ began ruling as King in that year. For several more years, they all continued to claim that Jesus did NOT begin ruling as King in that year. Instead, the Watchtower continued to teach them that Jesus had begun ruling as King in 1878. Hints came about half-a-decade later that this date might change, or even get pushed back from 1878 to 1874 (See Rutherford's famous Cedar Point talk in 1922). But it wasn't until more than a decade later, in the late 1920's and early 1930's that 1914 became the new date for Jesus to have begun ruling as King.
    In fact, the idea that Jesus had been invisibly present since 1874 did not become officially and fully revised until 1943:
    *** ka chap. 11 pp. 209-210 par. 55 “Here Is the Bridegroom!” ***
    In the year 1943 the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society published the book “The Truth Shall Make You Free.” . . .  Naturally this did away with the year 1874 C.E. as the date of return of the Lord Jesus Christ and the beginning of his invisible presence or parousia. . . .  Page 324 of the above book positively says: “The King’s presence or parousia began in 1914.”
    So, if none of the anointed ever really discerned the sign of Jesus Kingship and presence in 1914, and didn't discern it until 1943, then perhaps there wasn't even a real need to come up with the overlapping generations theory. I personally know someone who was anointed before 1943 who is still alive and faithful.
  4. Upvote
    ComfortMyPeople reacted to JW Insider in Are JWs in America back on the 'door to door' work now ?   
    There is no doubt that 1914 marked a very important point of change in history. I have seen ex-JWs and non-JWs try to deny this, just because it probably embarrasses them that the Watchtower Society has been able to hold onto the significance of the 1914 date for so long.
    However, the book that Dmitar mentioned is actually an excellent book that uses the expression "generation of 1914" in the same manner that Jesus appears to have used the expression "this generation" (that is, the generation of 33 CE). Technically, Jesus could have meant all the people who were contemporaries meaning all the very old people, middle-aged people, young men, and small children who were alive when Jesus called them "this generation." But obviously the very old did NOT live to see the great tribulation of those days when Jerusalem was surrounded by encamped armies. 70 was a long and fortunate lifespan, and the average in those days (not including childbirth deaths) was likely only to about age 40. That generation that saw all those things occur by Rome in 66-70, had to live at least another 33 to 37 years.
    But Robert Wohl in the book focuses on the age of 5 young middle-class elites  in 5 Western countries of Europe, and he follows the ideas and experiences that these 5 men (born in 1880's and 1890's) would have witnessed especially from about 1914 up until the post-war years of the 1940's. In the book he reminds us that people had spoken of the "sacrificed generation" of the men of 1885. And that various schools had spoken of the "social generation," and the "scientific generation" at various points in the late 1800's.
    That is the common use of the expressions like "generation of Jesus' day" "generation of the apostles" "generation of Joseph and his brothers" "generation of 1914" "generation of my grandfather" "generation of my great-grandfather" "generation of my children".
    Of course there are other technical definitions of generation but the default, we would expect, is always the common meaning unless otherwise specified. Robert Wohl gives us the common meaning, the default meaning. If we think we should apply Robert Wohl's understanding and use of the term "generation of 1914" it's the same as saying that the Watchtower got it wrong.
    To be fair, I wanted to add that Wohl holds that the common meaning of generation, of which there may be about "three in a century," is not binding on the extended significance and impact of that generation on following generations. That's no doubt why he chose the title because that generation of 1914 still has relevant meaning even for today. But that type of impact can go on forever and is clearly a completely different use than the one that the Watchtower uses. The Watchtower has specifically stated that it is about a limited and specific demarcation of time, quite different from when Jesus used expressions like "who will save you from this wicked generation."


  5. Upvote
    ComfortMyPeople reacted to Arauna in VISITING OLD OR SICK ONES THAT YOU KNOW, IN THE CONGREGATION OR NOT.   
    I am fragile but not so old.   I will only need attention when I am unable to walk.  Many elderly people go through the same with their children popping in every other day or so.  My children are in other countries due to circumstances - me being a refugee from my own country. 
    MY mum's best friend died after she was lying on the floor a whole day with a stroke injury.  This pandemic has made matters worse as people who are not family are supposed to distance themselves.  I would feel mad if it was my friend.... but I would calm down afterward and realize that the person is no longer suffering and is in the long arms of Jehovah. Jehovah's hand will not be short during the resurrection.
  6. Upvote
    ComfortMyPeople reacted to Equivocation in VISITING OLD OR SICK ONES THAT YOU KNOW, IN THE CONGREGATION OR NOT.   
    I do this all the time. It is a Famila thing, well a Latino thing. But visiting tends to be more than just checking up on someone's health but to keep them company, even reaching out if need be. Since I am among the youngest of my family, we've been taught that we jot only respect and honor our elders but to visit and talk with them. My father has taught us this and encourage myself and my relatives to do the same because he wants the family and their inner circle to be well connected. He isn't a fan of how some Families in America operate. So regardless if someone is a brother or not, we make the effort to visit physically or over the phone even run errands if anything. In my case family and friends live in the same area very close.
    Also not sure if anyone mentioned this, it is also good to visit even younger ones too because mentally they're fragile.
     
    The only person tough to visit is my other uncle who lives in the middle of nowhere, like Log Cabin life. You can only reach him by phone. This guy jokes that he fights bears lol 😆 
  7. Upvote
    ComfortMyPeople reacted to Pudgy in Are JWs in America back on the 'door to door' work now ?   
    I disagree. 
    I have never claimed to be a “good” Christian, and if it were not for the training and education I received from OTHER highly flawed Jehovah’s Witnesses, I would have had a very short life, dying on a battlefield somewhere, or worse.
    A lot worse.
    We should NEVER stop trying to be a Christian.
    As the famous cartoon character Pogo once said “We have met the enemy, and he is us.”

  8. Upvote
    ComfortMyPeople reacted to JW Insider in Are JWs in America back on the 'door to door' work now ?   
    I understand what you are saying, and for a while, I would have agreed that he was not a real Witness, and that he was only a counterfeit to make Witnesses look bad. I know that other Witnesses here also "disown" him from the ranks of baptized Witnesses. I suspect that his personality has already made trouble for himself with the elders, and that this is one of the reasons he reaches out here. Like the guy who gets yelled at when he's at work, and must find a dog to kick when he gets home.
    But I think the matter is more complex with him. On the most visible level it appears that he is a living embodiment of the works of the flesh, and the opposite of every fruit of the spirit.
    (Galatians 5:19-26) . . .Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, 20 idolatry, spiritism, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, 21envy, ... 22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. ...26 Let us not become egotistical, stirring up competition with one another, envying one another.
    But I think there are other "layers" when you peel back the onion, so to speak. I see difficult issues of a struggling Witness, and I think he is constantly, if inadvertently, giving us hints about these struggles. We might think that we'd never witness such levels of wrath and reviling and name-calling within a congregation, but I've seen such things manifest in otherwise well-meaning brothers within the Writing Department at Bethel. I won't name names here, but sometimes brothers in the most responsible positions --persons I normally thought of as loving-- could actually turn "vicious" against even the most mild-mannered and peace-loving brothers. But, right or wrong, it was usually because they were seeing something they felt was a spiritual danger to the brotherhood. Unfortunately, this could be taken so far that brothers in responsible positions even felt that admitting a mistake could constitute a spiritual danger to the organizational arrangement.
    This is the level where I find some of Dmitar's wrath understandable. He has seen some of the things that I have said, you have said, Arauna, Tom, Anna, etc., that are very disturbing to him. It's because he feels the need to be a kind of "hero" that fights when there is any perceived "attack" against the organization. He is the "Billy-the-Kid, Wyatt-Earp-styled gunslinger of the old American West" hunting out all possible forms of dangerous thinking.
    I've seen this hero complex before, and I agree that it tends to offer no more than haughty, puffed-up knowledge (but often just pretentious bluster) instead of love. If you have ever followed the early on-line history of one calling himself scholar_jw here or even Rolf Furuli, you'll see the same thing. They are hoping to be "heroes" to defend the less defensible traditions. Even some of the "fringe" Witnesses who have been here, and who offer their unique interpretations of prophecies --and who evidently think they are defending WTS doctrines-- will often show a real "mean streak" when their date predictions are questioned.
    But I also see that kind of ego revealed in the sound of my own words, and sometimes in anyone else who questions a current teaching or practice. So, in spite of what I don't appreciate about him and others like him, I thought it was only fair to also offer anything positive about him. It was intended as a kind of one-sided "eulogy" if he is really leaving the forum.
  9. Upvote
    ComfortMyPeople reacted to Arauna in ​​​​​​​“ …. Eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, what God has in store for those that love him …. “   
    A few years back there were 22 multiverses. before Hawkins died he actually reduced the number.
    The reason they have all these multiverses is that it allows for "chance" to create something.  We know this is absurd but this is how they make the jackpot of gambling on "chance" bigger. 
    These theories are calculations done by math.... but remember this: math is a language to express something.  It does not mean it is reality or truth.  It is just a tool.  Too many people forget this.
  10. Upvote
    ComfortMyPeople reacted to Thinking in ​​​​​​​“ …. Eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, what God has in store for those that love him …. “   
    Take heart pudgy that our precious ones are not dead to Jehovah or Jesus….but alive….and I hope you meet yours under a rainbow 🌈 and that rainbows may still be In Existence In Jehovah’s judgement day….( I think ) 
  11. Upvote
    ComfortMyPeople reacted to Arauna in ​​​​​​​“ …. Eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, what God has in store for those that love him …. “   
    How would you describe a "dimension"  if the word does not yet exist?  We all know that even on earth the angels move in a dimension we cannot physically detect.  Beyond the physical universe there are more dimensions. In our physical universe we are bound by dimensions of  time and space.  Beyond this.... there is no time and space.... 
  12. Upvote
    ComfortMyPeople reacted to Pudgy in Are JWs in America back on the 'door to door' work now ?   
    Fatter heads are not necessarily smarter.
  13. Upvote
    ComfortMyPeople reacted to Pudgy in Are JWs in America back on the 'door to door' work now ?   
    I wish I could triple upvote Arauna’s last comment!
  14. Upvote
    ComfortMyPeople reacted to Arauna in Are JWs in America back on the 'door to door' work now ?   
    Very true, unfortunately child services have also become predatory.... because the privatized institutions get funded by the government and are profit driven. (This is another very dark scenario). Calling Police (to the average person) is a frightning prospect because a bad policeman can be the beginning of a frightening nightmare. The FBI is tenfold worse.  Citizens do not know how to hold them legally to order if they break the law themselves. Race may also be an issue. A lot of what goes on is just raw display and use if power. 
    We have human laws but they are not enforced in a loving way..... and are not fair to all.  Most JWs also do not know how to act when an elder has overstepped the mark. Bottom line: injustice can happen anywhere and all humans are vulnerable to mild or hardened predators and all degrees of injustice.  One is just fortunate if something really bad has not happened to you. 
  15. Upvote
    ComfortMyPeople reacted to JW Insider in Are JWs in America back on the 'door to door' work now ?   
    Perhaps I mentioned it somewhere already, but Reslite did get back to me with a response. And he also responded to a question I asked him on his blog. He is both careful and accurate, and therefore an excellent resource on Russell. He did not have the particular information I questioned him about, however, and he recommended another resource.
    For most concerns about Russell, Reslite's default position is to defend him fully, and this is almost always the right direction to go. Most JW opposers (and Bible Student opposers) go for the more ludicrous attacks on Russell anyway, and therefore it's a safe bet on most issues to follow the information in the Proclaimers book and Reslite's information, too, where he can offer additional material.
    But there are a couple of concerns about Russell that rarely get brought up, and one of these is the fact that Brother Rutherford claimed that Russell alone (individually - in his person) had been the "faithful and discreet slave" and Rutherford gave a funeral speech for Russell repeating this belief. This was in accord with Russell's own Watch Tower teaching about the "faithful and wise servant" for nearly the previous two decades. Rutherford also  published material about him clarifying that Russell himself accepted the title and would have claimed it publicly but that Russell's humility only allowed him to claim it privately.
    This is not a big deal to me, but it is a minor concern, because the most current claim in our publications about this is that Russell "never claimed to be such" and therefore the idea is effectively blamed on others, with the idea that Russell only accepted this teaching about himself because of the undue influence of others around him. (See, Proclaimers.)
    The actual history of the idea creates another minor concern about the current teaching: If Rutherford was one of those appointed by Jesus Christ in 1919  to be one of the select few members of the "faithful and discreet slave," then why was it that since December 1919 and all through at least 1927, Rutherford didn't accept this appointment from Jesus, but still insisted that ONLY Russell himself had been that faithful and discreet slave?
    I have a feeling that the reason Dmitar referenced me with respect to this particular topic is because he recognizes the problems of these minor issues but he believes they are major, and therefore must somehow try to defend against them by making it appear they are just hearsay, not claims found in the WT publications themselves.  
  16. Upvote
    ComfortMyPeople reacted to Equivocation in What's going on in Ukraine 🇺🇦???   
    Well I mean you can't blame them tho lol, our generation is often times strange. But yeah Tiktok has a lot of propaganda going on too. I usually just watch it for friends, sports, and memes, check up on how others are doing, etc. but just to get around that other stuff is annoying. Speaking about memes, this is an example

    I heard about the bribes. I also heard about crazy stuff about people being trapped in Ukraine, what both you and @JW Insider mention in the other thread, elsewhere I heard important Russian figures gone missing, a crazy time we are in, but what to expect from the current system of things.
    My cousin's girlfriend's father almost went to his country to fight for it, almost. He does not believe the trapping thing is true but since the media and news is getting to his emotions, even if it is propaganda, I guarantee he is believing it as something true.
  17. Upvote
    ComfortMyPeople reacted to Thinking in What's going on in Ukraine 🇺🇦???   
    He should delve into Ukraines President..and his past..it might give him second thoughts…
  18. Upvote
    ComfortMyPeople reacted to Thinking in Are JWs in America back on the 'door to door' work now ?   
    May I ask how so…??…I would have thought the opposite was happening
    Example: a few of us older sister were discussing the old bible story book..you would know them…the scary pictures of a mother holding her Baby appearing to scream for help as the water rises…..
    I didnt know a number of those fearful pictures have been removed tho actually depicting truth were really instilling to much fear…and children needed to be taught to love Jehovah and Jesus not from fear .
    I think it was a hangover from Christendom  teaching…but we have seen that and as a people corrected it..
    I have not needed to use the Bible book of stories for sometime so I didn’t know that…even a firm brother in the truth did not read certain stories to his children because he deemed them not appropriate for them,
    The society have seen and understood this and changed their way of teaching ..is this not a good thing?…
    I genuinely  would like to know what you mean please .
  19. Upvote
    ComfortMyPeople reacted to JW Insider in Are JWs in America back on the 'door to door' work now ?   
    Sending them in to a frontline with little or no ammo for their weapons made no sense to me when I heard about that. Except that one idea might have been to make sure Americans die so that the US will step in and step up to fight Russia. This was Ukraine's goal all along, but it's becoming painfully obvious to Zalensky now that it was never the US goal. The US only needed to tease them into a war that would continue to weaken the country, and hopefully still keep them dependent on the purchase of more military weapons from the US. Previously, the US sold them billions in weapons so that they would keep killing fellow Ukrainians in Donbas, to the tune of about 14,000 dead. Whether they are bombing their own people, as they have been for more than 8 years, or bombing Russians, should make no difference to the US, as long as they still need US weapons to do it.
    It is usually the goal of stupid people in the media and in the population who think that the US is all-powerful and can step into a war with Russia (or anyone else) to prove American dominance over everyone and everything. Biden, and at least half of Congress, might be dumb enough to be goaded into it, but the entire goal of US wars and invasions and occupations since 9/11 has never been to "win" anything, but mostly to create enough chaos to make American weapon-making oligarchs richer, while weakening the economies of countries the US chooses to interfere with.
    The US occupation of Syria, of course, is to continue illegally occupying about a third of Syria to weaken the country with civil war, and mostly to control its oil which the US has been stealing now since their civil war began there. (And, of course, to bully and lie about Assad enough so that he knows he can't fight back.) The US support of the genocide in Yemen is, of course, only to please Saudi Arabia since the US has no conscience about where they purchase oil from (while making sure that Germany and other Europeans will not purchase gas from Russia).
    Oh wait! Was this about Ukraine or door-to-door ministry?
  20. Upvote
    ComfortMyPeople got a reaction from Thinking in Biblical King-of-the-North (KON) and King-of-the-South (KOS), and GOG and MAGOG, too!   
    You're right. Nothing in our Christian life should change if the prophecies (such as those of the KoN) were fulfilled, are being fulfilled or will be fulfilled. If we serve Jehovah out of devotion we will continue to worship him no matter what the end comes tomorrow or in a million years.
    In fact, not giving prophecies too much emphasis protects us from disappointment. But what happens to me is that since a good part of the Bible consists of prophecies, I can't help but "take a look".
    (2 Peter 1:19). . .So we have the prophetic word made more sure, and you are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place (until day dawns and a daystar rises) in your hearts. .
     
    By the way, I love your cartoons
  21. Downvote
    ComfortMyPeople got a reaction from Dmitar in Biblical King-of-the-North (KON) and King-of-the-South (KOS), and GOG and MAGOG, too!   
    Several problems arise when we approach Da 11 from a preterist or historicist perspective.
    First of all, I believe that the first mistake in approaching this prophecy (along with those of Revelation) is to try to apply them to events "of the present moment" as soon as we think we determine that some piece fits in the puzzle, only to discover some time later that we have to readjust (Zenobia, for example).
    A problem that we JW's have is that since everything pivots around 1914 we try to make the key turn in that lock, closing our eyes to any other possibility. Actually, it must be admitted that there are two possibilities.
    1. Everything was fulfilled at the time of the Hellenic kings who influenced Israel, mainly Antiochus IV Epiphanes 2. Much of what we believe has already been accomplished is still in the future and must be fulfilled. I am only going to get involved at this point with point 1.
    DANIEL 11:25-27
    Scholars mention that these passages have to do with some Syrian wars (KoN) against the Ptolemies (KoS) but they are not sure what specific events.
    Until recently we talked about Queen Zenobia and her generals as antagonists of Rome and KoS. Now, we see in these verses the German Empire and its defeat in the IWW
    ...And so on. Scholars focusing on Syria-Egypt, JW's on 20th and 21st century events.
    WHY ANTIOCUS IV IS NOT THE GREAT PROTAGONIST OF DANIEL 11
    Daniel 11:40-45
    This is in no way related to the acts of Antiochus or any other Hellenic KoN. Numerous commentators apply these words to a character related to the Antichrist.
    Daniel 11:45
    When biblical scholars try to apply this passage to the death of the Syrian king they have to admit that Daniel (or a pseudo-Daniel) was wrong, since the king is known not to die in the Promised Land ("of Decoration")
    Daniel 11:31b
    Although many think that this refers to the desecration of the temple by this impious king, as collected in the Maccabean books, Jesus Christ himself (Mat 24:15 and Mr 13:14) applies it to the future, not to events of the 2nd century BC .

     
  22. Downvote
    ComfortMyPeople got a reaction from Dmitar in Biblical King-of-the-North (KON) and King-of-the-South (KOS), and GOG and MAGOG, too!   
    Yes, I see your point. And I also think that Jews and Christians thought they were seeing the fulfillment of the prophecies (and also many of us).
    Considering that Jesus refers to Daniel as a "prophet", and that many of his prophecies culminate in the "time of the end" (for example Daniel 2:44) it is still very interesting to investigate where, in Daniel 10 to 12, we could discover specific events of our era.
     
     
  23. Downvote
    ComfortMyPeople got a reaction from Dmitar in Biblical King-of-the-North (KON) and King-of-the-South (KOS), and GOG and MAGOG, too!   
    Yes, at some point the character is no longer a Seleucid king, not even a Roman, because nothing of the next verses happened in past times:
    (Daniel 11:45-12:2) . . .And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him. 12 “During that time Mi'cha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book. 2 And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life and others to reproach and to everlasting contempt.
    Evidently, at some point the prophecy abandons the past and tackles the future. The problem is knowing where to cut!
     
  24. Upvote
    ComfortMyPeople reacted to JW Insider in Biblical King-of-the-North (KON) and King-of-the-South (KOS), and GOG and MAGOG, too!   
    Yes. I see your point. It becomes difficult to keep trying to see who the original characters were, and then making them only the OBJECT LESSONS of the time of the end.
    The only way to do that is to spiritualize the lesson. By "spiritualizing," I mean that these enemies to Jehovah's people really are dead to us, because we have warred with Jehovah's enemies and "conquered the world" according to scripture. Of course, we must also continue to conquer, but Christians are in effect already raised up, and his enemies are already condemned to death. In other words there is a sense in which the King of the North already "came to his end in the land of decoration."
    And the reason I'm looking into spiritualizing the lesson would be because I think we know (deep down) that this is also the way to understand Revelation, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21. We know that Jesus had in mind the destruction of Jerusalem in 70, and called it, in effect, "a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time." When Jesus added, "nor will ever occur again," now we must move it forward again to the final parousia, not just the time of judgment on literal Jerusalem.
    Also, Revelation says that Daniel wasn't really in the time of the end, and thus the scrolls were sealed up, but it's because Revelation was written in the time of the end that it was then time to unseal Daniel's words. We resolve that in the WT publications by saying that John wasn't really in the time of the end, but that he was moved in a vision to the 1914 era. But this does not fit the introduction to Revelation before John is swept away in vision, and it does not resolve the issue of what almost every letter in the Christian Greek Scriptures includes (plus Acts): the fact that they also were written in what had just become the time of the end, the last days. It's even in the quote from 1 Cor 10, above:
    they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have come.
  25. Thanks
    ComfortMyPeople got a reaction from Pudgy in Biblical King-of-the-North (KON) and King-of-the-South (KOS), and GOG and MAGOG, too!   
    You're right. Nothing in our Christian life should change if the prophecies (such as those of the KoN) were fulfilled, are being fulfilled or will be fulfilled. If we serve Jehovah out of devotion we will continue to worship him no matter what the end comes tomorrow or in a million years.
    In fact, not giving prophecies too much emphasis protects us from disappointment. But what happens to me is that since a good part of the Bible consists of prophecies, I can't help but "take a look".
    (2 Peter 1:19). . .So we have the prophetic word made more sure, and you are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place (until day dawns and a daystar rises) in your hearts. .
     
    By the way, I love your cartoons
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