ComfortMyPeople

*** ka chap. 11 pp. 209-210 par. 55 “Here Is the Bridegroom!” ***
In the year 1943 the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society published the book “The Truth Shall Make You Free.” In its chapter 11, entitled “The Count of Time,” it did away with the insertion of 100 years into the period of the Judges and went according to the oldest and most authentic reading of Acts 13:20, and accepted the spelled-out numbers of the Hebrew Scriptures. This moved forward the end of six thousand years of man’s existence into the decade of the 1970’s. Naturally this did away with the year 1874 C.E. as the date of return of the Lord Jesus Christ and the beginning of his invisible presence or parousia.
 

Good question.
As you know, page 20 of the Kingdom Rules book shows an illustration of the Bible Students preaching, with the caption "In 1914, the Bible Students began to discern the sign of Christ’s invisible presence"
And then page 50, par 5 it says "As we saw in Chapter 2 of this book, the Bible Students spent decades pointing out that the year 1914 would be significant in fulfilling Bible prophecy.  However, at that time they believed that Christ’s presence had begun in 1874, that he had begun to rule in heaven in 1878..."
It's like two different people wrote chapter 2 and chapter 5 of the book. It's confusing....
 

I wonder if they are going to get rid of the idea that the first group "readily discerned the sign of Christ's presence in 1914." I expect that the new phrasing will become simply "they were alive to see the sign of Christ's presence in 1914."
*** w14 1/15 p. 31 pars. 15-16 “Let Your Kingdom Come”—But When? ***
The first group was on hand in 1914, and they readily discerned the sign of Christ’s presence in that year. Those who made up this group were not merely alive in 1914, but they were spirit-anointed as sons of God in or before that year.—Rom. 8:14-17.
16 The second group included in “this generation” are anointed contemporaries of the first group. They were not simply alive during the lifetime of those in the first group, but they were anointed with holy spirit during the time that those of the first group were still on earth.
It took until 1943 to get rid of the idea that Jesus' presence had started in 1874. So how could anyone in the first group readily "discern" the sign of Christ's presence in 1914?
Of course, there really were contemporary (overlapping) generations in 1914, just as there were contemporary (overlapping) generations who were alive when Jesus spoke of "this generation" in 33 CE. In Jesus' day, they were the generation of grandparents, the generation of parents and the generation of children, all alive together in 33 CE. Therefore, if we're honest, then, it would have been the generation of grandparents, parents, and children alive in 1914 who made up those contemporary (overlapping) generations in 1914. That means that any anointed persons born after 33 CE were NOT, strictly speaking, contemporaries with those who heard Jesus talk about the generation. And anyone born in 1915 or later was NOT, strictly speaking, a contemporary of those anointed who were alive in 1914.
I'm also wondering why they set up a rule restricting it to anointed only. Was it only anointed persons who heard about Jesus prophecy in 33 CE, and who survived until 70 CE to see that he was right? And, for an example, let's say that Jerusalem hadn't been burned by Rome until say around 150 CE, when all those actual contemporaries alive in 33 CE were long dead. Would we be defending Jesus' words with the idea that the apostle John must have grown old and died around the year 100 CE, but some babies who never met John were born just before he died, and those "babies" lived as contemporaries of John and were still alive in 150 CE?
Maybe, we would. But I think it's more likely that someone would think about the 120 year "generation" of Noah's day, and would take note that 33 to 150 CE is just under 120 years. 😉

I think the society is trying to word it as "contemporaries".....two groups of people, one group old, the other group younger and both groups having experienced the signs of the times.....or on this case experienced Br. Franz being alive (as an example). At least I think that's how it is 🤔 In any case, if explaining this requires mental gymnastics, then it's a bit fishy in my opinion....

As you know, I preached amongst Muslims.  The bible clearly indicates (notthe GB) that one has to accept the ransom sacrifice and have faith in the resurrection of Jesus to be raised yourself!  Muslims as well as other religions do NOT accept the death of Christ.  So you can decide what you think!  While many of them are very sweet they do not believe in the concept of sin.  They just want the mercy of god!
The judgment Day is not what people think!  Judgment does NOT just have the meaning of giving punishment.  If you go to court- BOTH sides are heard to give a final judgment.  It will be the same under Christ's kingdom.  Those unrighteous ones who have a resurrection will be taught from the new scrolls that will be opened. They will be judged according to their deeds after learning the truth!.
Ezekiel 9 talks about the angel with the inkpot that will mark everyone for survival through Armageddon. We are in this period right now!  The winds of destruction are being held back for the 144000 to be sealed and also for the great crowd to be marked!   We are marked according to our Christian personality.   Most other Christian denominations are ready to fight with their guns and are ready to stand up to the government (get politically involved!) which is the mark of the beast! .......Is that displaying the "christian personality"?  So you judge JWs when we say that few will be saved through Armageddon..... but the bible itself says this!  The bible itself says they must have the name of the father AND the son!   If you read your bible regularly you will feel guilty over any behavior that is unacceptable to Jehovah and adjust it according to the righteous standards of God - being NICE is NOT the criteria!      Accepting Jehovah and his Son means that we also accept those "principles " which most people find tedious and unnecessary!
 

What do you think of this statement?
"Hyper-oxygenated air; the world was like a hyperbaric chamber, everything lived longer because of the air quality. We know this because we have air samples from before the flood; extracted from bubbles trapped in fossilized sap (amber). Adam lived until he was 930. Noah was 600 when he built the Ark"  
She is suggesting that we lived so much longer due to the heightened levels of oxygen available during the Pre-flood era.
Later it was said that this oxygen bound to hydrogen to create the oceans of water around us.

Tsunami waves crushed and buried everything. The minerals in the mud seeped into the tissues of the plants and animals and fossilized them. The Great Flood is the only reason why fossils exist.

You don’t think this tree grew through ‘billions of years of rock’ do you? The sediment compressed under billions of tons of water, solidified and became stone.

According to the Bible there were no carnivores before the flood and animals did not fear us.

This is the ancient Chinese word for 'boat’. The number 8 is for the 8 people that were on the ark.

Stories about the flood have been found in every every ancient culture around the world 
Anyone have any other examples?

JFR was probably not even including those who were already Bible Students (proto-JWs) to be numbered in those millions. ALL of the Bible Students were included in the 144,000 going to heaven, but in those days the persons we now identify as "the great crowd of other sheep" were also anointed and going to heaven. In fact, all Christians were going to heaven according Bible Student teaching of that time. This meant all Christians who were not Bible Students were anointed and also going to heaven.
But the scriptures taught that all who go to heaven must die first:
(1 Corinthians 15:35-37) . . .Nevertheless, someone will say: “How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?” 36 You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies. 37 And as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but just a bare grain, whether of wheat or of some other kind of seed;
That verse would have especially applied to the "seed," the 144,000, and to repeat, ALL of the (few thousand) Bible Students in 1920 were considered to be a part of that 144,000. And Jesus along with the rest of 144,000 were "The Christ." Jesus was the head of the Christ, and the 144,000 were also "The Christ" (the rest of Christ's body).  
The Christ consists of Jesus glorified, the head, and the members of his body, which constitutes the church.   -- "Millions Now  Living Will Never Die, p.76

Since the Bible Students were in the 144,000 and considered to be "The Christ," they were also part of the propitiatory sacrifice, and would have especially fulfilled the verse about how it is reserved for men to die once for all time.
(Hebrews 9:26-28) . . .Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to do away with sin through the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this to receive a judgment, 28 so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin, and he will be seen by those earnestly looking for him for their salvation.
But at that time it was believed that the great crowd would also die at Armageddon which can still be found on jw.org:
*** w66 2/15 p. 118 par. 13 Identifying the Present-Day Beneficiaries ***
In 1930, the book Light, in two volumes, gave a verse-for-verse commentary on the book of Revelation, but it still applied the “great multitude” of Revelation 7:9-17 (AV) to a spirit-begotten class of professed Christians who, after a martyr’s death at Armageddon, would each “get life as a spirit creature,” but secondary to the Bride of Christ. -- https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1966124?q="a+martyr's+death+at+Armageddon"&p=doc
The issues that come into play are about how many non-Christians were expected to be saved through Armageddon. Russell had given his opinion that only a very few would be "slaughtered" and that the vast majority of mankind living would accept the government that came to the fore after Armageddon (and Rutherford had not yet adjusted this view). In fact, as late as 1928, Rutherford could claim that he had not changed "a jot or tittle" from Russell's "Studies in the Scriptures."
But I think he was already hedging his bet on the number who would be saved through Armageddon. He said that "hundreds of thousands" of those alive in NYC in 1920 would never die. Look closely at the wording of the 1920 advertisement in the New York World newspaper below, and here on jw.org: https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-study-october-2020/1920-One-Hundred-Years-Ago/

NYC had a population of 5.6 million at the time. But smaller cities, a tenth as large, like Pittsburgh (pop 588,000) could only be conclusively proven to see "tens of thousands" never die.

Under Knorr/Franz, the expectation changed from what appears to be at least 5% to 10% surviving, down to about 0.1% surviving. (99.9% of the world population to be slaughtered, as FWF put it.)
*** w55 11/1 p. 648 Using Wisely the Reduced Time Left ***
or in trying to perpetuate this old system of things is wasted, and that is what more than 99.9 per cent of this earth’s population are doing.
*** w58 10/15 pp. 614-615 What Will Armageddon Mean for You? ***
THE ARMAGEDDON FORCES . . . On Satan’s side will be all the rest of mankind, more than 99.9 percent, even as we read: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” That includes all the governments of the world together with their supporters, the commercial, religious and social institutions. Even the professedly Christian organizations? Yes, because all such that are friends of the world are making themselves enemies of God.—1 John 5:19; Jas. 4:4.
That number apparently came from the fact that the number of Witnesses compared to the rest of the population was also about 0.1% therefore 99.9% non-Witnesses. Today, if you include all Memorial attendees, the number begins to approach 0.3%. So maybe only 99.7%?

I think similar to you, that Rutherford may have meant people who were not yet Bible Students could be saved. At that time, as you know, there were no "Jehovah’s Witnesses", only Bible students associated with Russel and Co, Rutherford and Co, IBSA and WT. I think it must have been kind of ambiguous and not clear cut as it is today. Keep in mind Jesus' words about the criterion for salvation. In any case, I am sure Rutherfords intention for using those words was to bring a positive message of hope to everyone (to those not associated) because that was the purpose of the preaching campaign, to bring good news to people, as Jesus said would happen. Of course he was off with the timing, and shouldn't have put an actual time frame on it like he did. But he was so sure...

I am reading one of the older publications at present...... but I see what I can " learn from it in the light of 2021 vision"  sometimes it provides a pleasant surprise ....or just what I expected.... not full understanding at the time... BUT.. I do not critisized it with 2021 hindsight. It is the "motive " one has when one looks back.
I do not indulge these people who seem to have ulterior motives... who look to the past and critisize it and do it with a pretense of not understanding......... I recall that that Satan pretended not to know when he said :  is it so...... you are not to eat from .... 

As Arauna has said many times, you can't just easily answer a question about past beliefs without the context of the times. Most Witnesses, I think, tend to read a lot of our current beliefs into Rutherford's words. Even the idea that "vengeance would be brought upon the wicked" in 1925 seems to impose our current view of Armageddon onto the view held in the early 1920's. It's similar but with important differences.
But you are right that he was predicting that millions of people in 1919, 1920, etc. would never die, but would continue to survive. The advertising campaign in newspapers was a bit funny, because it seemed to make use of a formula that was based on a certain percentage of the population of a city, and predict that thousands, or tens of thousands would never die in that particular city.  
The reference to the recent "100 Years Ago" article about the "Harp" book was just a point about how we keep referring back to the time period. Yes, there are a few hints in the images of the questions, but I was referring to the entire purpose of the book: to prepare people for the "miracle" of everlasting life that was already in effect for millions of persons. Those were persons NOT currently associated with the Bible Students, but who would cooperate with the new government, already legally established.
My two copies, like many online images of the book, include the phrase about the "Millions" embossed onto the cover:
 

Being a top expert generally means mastering 1 or at most 2 areas of a profession. Some people have the intellectual ability, but also some talent, to master several areas. For example, one JW elder was a mechanical engineer, talented in music, he directed, I think, all the dramas for congresses in some 20 years, he was an excellent listener and speaker and interlocutor. But, unfortunately, he raised his hand against himself in 2013 and violently ended his life. Sometimes I wonder how he would have reacted, had he stayed alive until 2015, to my exit from the Organization, because we felt one nice affection for each other.
I am one of those who have a sense of various everyday practical skills, but at the same time I see the disadvantages of such an approach. But on the other hand, it is becoming increasingly difficult to find responsible and capable people who can do some work. Let’s say construction work, on repairing or renovating a house or roof. There is also the issue of money to pay for the works. Basically, being "your own master" is better than nothing.
Perhaps Video Games should be created to help players master skills such as plastering a wall, laying ceramic tiles, electrical installations and the like.  

Well, the simplest explanation, as indicated by the principle of Ockham's Razor, is that you are a lizard with human skin (as in the "V" series).
I hope your health does not suffer (too much) from lack of sleep, and so the rest of us enjoy your posts. (At least some of us)

Well, the simplest explanation, as indicated by the principle of Ockham's Razor, is that you are a lizard with human skin (as in the "V" series).
I hope your health does not suffer (too much) from lack of sleep, and so the rest of us enjoy your posts. (At least some of us)

@JW Insider, now my suspicions have been confirmed! You are an alien!!.
It is humanly impossible to have such an ability to do so many things. I already told you once to explain to me how you made time to sleep. And now you say that you also play video games !!
I am going to investigate if it is correct to have dealings with aliens ...

I discovered that there was a regular killing of "educated" people here in Albania by the communist dictator Hoxha. I spoke to a sister who told me her father was in prison 3 times for long periods because he was Western educated. Others are still looking for family members. When I was in Armenia, I saw the photos of the Turkish genocide - it looked similar to Nazi Germany- the stacks of dead , emaciated children and parents. 
All regimes can easily do this but when it is supported by a devillish ideology then genocide is always justified - and regimes do unmentionable things.... and the messengers are told they are lying...... this is the oldest trick since Satan lied to Adam.
There were too many smoking guns coming out of China..... and visitors to China who looked suspicious or asked too many questions, they  would feel the brunt of surveillance and cameras broken.  Those visitors drinking the propaganda of the red coolaid, came away from China thinking it is a wonderful country! .... not much wiser than when they went in. Unfortunately this included journalists who were hand picked by China .... and democratic and Republican leaders who are still heavily invested in China.
I was watching China longg before it became  popular to bash China.... and I was not goofed. 20 years the falun gong were demonized and their followers abused in horrific ways. The UN was assured by China it will not happen any longer when irrefutable proof emerged of forced transplants.... and yet it was too profitable for the regime to stop. 
No - human governments are really beastlike - all of them.... but some are the T-rex. 

No I don't.  I always try to see how things fit in with the bible. That is why I said that one cannot apologize for any governments now in place - they have truly eaten more people's lives in a beastly fashion than most previous governments ever on this earth, and in a much shorter time! 
The only thing that frustrates me are people who speak directly against God in such as blatant fashion - to their own detriment (to quote Paul).  They are acting against their own lives.  I am absolutely honest when I say anything and I sometimes come across as abrasive when I confront...... it is the South African way ....But I also say - I hope you do not take my jabs too seriously!
We all have to give an accounting of ourselves before Jehovah!  I know that my anti-human-government stance may come across as political to those in authority because they do not allow anyone to question their authority in any way.  I am not anti-authority - I am totally for law and order but not the kind that is now prevailing as pseudo-law. I cannot see any good whatsoever in all the governments now ruling and I am sure that humans will soon face total disgust, anxiety and fear for what is waiting for humankind.  It is going to be ghastly when one has children crying because there is  very little food, and parents dying from immunity disorders due to mandated medicines etc. I am sad and have even cried over my own children who are forced into certain actions which I know can cost their lives and leave their children to be orphans. 
We ain't see nothing yet!  Satan is determined......  It is his way or death!  It is only by the grace of Jehovah that we will get through this darkness!  Literal cold and darkness is waiting for North America this year and for Europe.... and the moral darkness will soon descend upon all of us......with new government mandates. Jehovah as our only light.  Those who have his spirit will be able to sustain themselves on His words!

@Arauna, I love it that you are a thinking person who is willing to get input from a variety of non-typical, non mainstream resources. You also show yourself willing to engage in dialogue with those holding non-typical opinions without running away with your hands over your ears. You stand up for what you believe and you give your reasons.
I am very aware that I will not gain any friends or followers by being an "apologist" for China, and it will surely lower my credibility in other areas where years of reading and research has forced me to hold unpopular opinions, such as those I now hold concerning our own traditions regarding Bible chronology.
In fact, that reminds me of a perfect example that highlights why I appreciate the difference between your style and others. As you probably know I'm engaged in an off-and-on discussion on the subject of our chronology with someone else on the closed part of the forum. He is an example of nearly the opposite. When he disagrees with evidence, he merely finds a variety of ways to basically say: I disagree with you; I'm right; you're wrong; my view has all the best evidence behind it. But he never directly engages with any of the evidence.
What I'm saying is that I hope you don't take my opinions personally in any way. I hope my disagreements with your political views don't make you think you are offending me. I actually enjoy the dialogue, as you probably already suspected. I hope you haven't engaged with so many obtuse people here that you think your input is wasted on all of us.
Personally, I always agree with much of what you say. Often what I disagree with is still intriguing enough to make me want to look into it more. It may not sound like it because I don't usually respond to things I already agree with, only the things I have trouble with.
Your last post is a great example. I agree with much of it, but you also give a few lines I'm so tempted to respond to. This particular topic isn't the place, but I look forward to another topic at another time, soon.

During the French Revolution religion was viewed as superstition but with Engels and Marx it became more like  "opium".....and after Darwinism - totally " undesirable"...... words they are starting to use again. This is speech which brings genocide when certain groups of peoples are "undesirable". 
It is the atheist  nature of communism and its hate for all life not pliable to the ideology, which makes it an excellent vehicle for Satan to use to exterminate people with any form of conscience. 
This is why I have been watching the neo-communism movements for quite some time in the west and the different forms of totalitarianism in the east..... because I am sure that this is the form of government the UN and the 10 kings will use to first of all create a fear to participate in religion and then exterminate the undesirables. Communism/totalitarian regimes  always single out groups of people who need to be removed-  before the utopia will arrive. 
One has to understand the ideology and see its Satanic nature as a form of control over people. The West has been less dangerous to its OWN citizens but this is changing.  China has now called for the UN to rewrite the way platforms function...... so that people cannot get news the UN does not want you to see from other countries.
Why such a request? Is it to hide the numbers of people dying from disease, hunger, injustice and undesirables in camps? Soon the West will be doing exactly what has been trickling out of China. 
Is this now being imported in the West? Yes.  If people  cannot see what is happening in front of their eyes they are as blind as bats. Several countries already have camps called "green camps" and "humanitarian camps" . 
PEople cannot see that Satan is using a totalitarian agenda to have TOTAL control over people and will eventually force all to OBEY the system or be eliminated -  brothers will give up brothers to save their own lives..... as the bible prophesied.
Again - I look at this not from a West versus East perspective ..... but from a ONE global perspective.  Satan wants to quaratee a global "peace and security" and build a secure prison for all.  (Sieges in olden days were situations where all were in lock-down)... so the "God of fortresses" (dan 11) has started.... 
Capitalism and communism is merging into "stakeholder capitalism " for the oligarchs. Oligarchs are saying they must be "socially responsible" ha-ha ..... when  they will be ruining the environment to get rare earth metals from the sea and land. Kill billions with their gene-medicines.  (I saw the new Merck product for Covid is a gene therapy. .... normal medicines are all now messing with your Gene's and they soon will start on the 5 - 10 year olds ) 
WHY would anyone be an apologist for any of the ideologies of the different governments NOW running the earth?  
USA with its military industrial complex which deals in death-dealing drugs and weapons and overthrows all kinds of governments all over the world and hides the killing of civilians in its warfare.....  Communistic and totalitarian governments which kills its own undesirable citizens and then calls it merely propaganda when they COVER up what they do with even more death!
Deceit, lies, murder - these are what governments do to a lesser or higher degree. But soon all governments will follow UN instructions and start to eliminate their own undesirable citizens. Nuremberg laws are being broken EVERY  day. 
Either one believes Satan is a murderer or you do not. To say that it is propaganda against USA or China when its atrocities are exposed is a moral blindness or a total nativity! 
People like Assange who know how to hack and publish atrocities will soon ALL be in prison. These governments cannot tolerate citizen journalists who load up images of their atrocities which they want to keep HIDDEN.  
As a Christian- I am all for LAW - but applied to everyone equally. Total diplomatic immunity for crimes from the ruling elite is not my idea of justice for all.
 

I just glanced at what was said above. It seems it is a much created fluffy storm in a tea cup  - about nothing! 
If I were living in 1919 or in 1935,  and finally understood the scriptures which indicated that a people will live through Armageddon: such as Revelation 20: 1 -3,  Revelation 7 (great crowd).... would you not write a book and articles with a advertising heading such as " Millions now living may never die!". 
If you suddenly understood that some people will live through Armageddon?  Yes, I would. I can imagine that because I can put myself in their place! Besides, I wrote for a newspaper when reporters could still be called reporters! 
As I have said before on this forum is that people leave out historical context and look back at history with all the knowledge of 2021!    Hindsight is 20/20 vision. .....
You remind me of these people who are pulling down statues of kings because they had a black page-boy - with 2021 vision he is now classified as a full blown racist!..... and worthy to be written out of history! 
People get realistic! We all know that one needs to believe in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus whether you go to heaven or live through Armageddon here on earth. 
This whole mud throwing title and the rhetoric  is just an artificially created storm in a tea cup.
 

MyVideo_1wrwc.mp4 The actual view is much smoother than the choppy capture in the video.

This didn't have to be a JW Club topic, but I'm interested in whether any Witnesses here, especially those over, say 50 years old, play any video games. As an old fogie myself, I have always tried to discourage it in my children, but one of my sons although he is going to be 30, started playing video games again last year. He's an attorney, and doesn't have the time now as he travels between various court houses all day. But through most of Covid courthouse closures he worked everything from a home office on Zoom. My youngest son lives far enough away that I don't know for sure, but he apparently takes no interest in either sports or video games. My daughter doesn't really like any of them, but has trouble pulling her five year old away from the iPad on weekends. It's forbidden through the week.
My older son bought me an Oculus VR headset this year, and I haven't made much use of it. It's good for more than games, but I just haven't taken the time.
There are two games I play where I figure I don't have to feel guilty because I can easily relax with them and listen to JW videos, news, radio, etc. One is chess, and the other is a flight simulator.  I don't have a working version of MS Flight Simulator any more, of if I do, it's hasn't been tried for 15 years. But I do play the flight simulator on Google Earth. It's so much better than it used to be years ago. if you fly from JFK through most of NYC and several other urban areas, the AI has produced 3D versions of every house and even the trees all over NYC and Long Island and Jersey.
I enjoy flying over places I read about anywhere in the world. Or revisit places I've traveled to (Haiti, Turkey, Sydney) or places I lived in (CA, MO, NY). Today, I flew from NYC JFK up to Tuxedo and Warwick. I 'visited' Bethel, doing a couple of flyovers. The scenery is taken from almost exactly a year ago, so you can see the leaves start to change.
I just recorded a part of that flight, and it was a couple of gigabytes, but if I can chop a small piece of it down to under 20 MB, I might post a part of it below. In the VR headset, I give it a curved screen and a much wider 180 degree view, so that it resembles a cockpit, but the video (if I can post it) will just be a flat view from the middle of the screen.

Lot of bad stuff coming out of that land these days, per BitterWinter. Religious curriculum being rewritten to glorify the state & whoever doesn’t comply being slowly, sometimes quickly, erased.
Sometimes I think it is like Herod with the infant boys. He doesn’t really know how to find who he’s look for. Wiping them all out is his answer.
Not much allowance for God is made in communist lands. Reviewing a video in prep for a Bible student, this pioneer conveys her feeling that it is practically game over when they prevail:
https://www.jw.org/finder?srcid=share&wtlocale=E&lank=pub-jwbls_201609_1_VIDEO