Gnosis Pithos

J.R. Ewing:
Your absurd extrapolations are sad to behold.
Normally, all prostitutes wear shoes ... but not all those that wear shoes are prostitutes.
AND .... your sad deflection to absurdity allowed you to NOT find anything wrong with Thanksgiving, even when given the complete text of the Proclamation that defined it. 
WITH THAT ASSURANCE .... I am completely assured that there is no problem with me observing the Holiday, as it was chartered.
Care to comment on my point no. 2, above?
For your convenience I am re-stating it.   ( Hrrrumph!)
" 2.) As I have posted before, with photocopies of their Passport Applications, the Past Presidents of the WTB&TS have ALL sworn allegiance to the US Constitution, and sworn to, BEFORE GOD, protect the US Constitution, against all enemies foreign and domestic, as ADULTS serving the Corporation.  ( ...and as an aside... as an adult I HAVE NOT.)"
Be a sport .... address that VERY REAL ISSUE.
THIS ... is where "the rubber meets the road.".
 

J.R. Ewing:
1.)  I am not a member of the National Rifle Association ... which in all the massacres and shootings that have taken place have NEVER had ANY member be the perpetrator.... it's always people with YOUR attitude doing the murders.
2.) As I have posted before, with photocopies of their Passport Applications, the Past Presidents of the WTB&TS have ALL sworn allegiance to the US Constitution, and sworn to, BEFORE GOD, protect the US Constitution, against all enemies foreign and domestic, as ADULTS serving the Corporation.  ( ...and as an aside... as an adult I HAVE NOT.)
3.) We are endowed with rights by Jehovah God. (Even cats have retractable claws). Governments may or may not insure those rights, but they do not endow natural rights ... the MOST BASIC of which is survival against evil.
4. ) No one "sings" the US pledge of allegiance  - your lack of education betrays your perspective on everything you stated which is all wrong, distorted and because it was used to try and disparage me ... EVIL.
But, thank you for the "Thanksgiving" wishes .... What follows is the actual Thanksgiving day Proclamation issued by Abraham Lincoln.
Please review it and specifically tell me what you find so offensive about it.  I see NOTHING wrong with it. Nothing at all!
" Washington, D.C.
October 3, 1863
By the President of the United States of America.
A Proclamation.
The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequalled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle or the ship; the axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the consciousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom. No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American People. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.
In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the Seal of the United States to be affixed.
Done at the City of Washington, this Third day of October, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and of the Independence of the United States the Eighty-eighth.
By the President: Abraham Lincoln
William H. Seward,
Secretary of State"
Please review it and specifically tell me what you find so
offensive about it.  I see NOTHING wrong with it. Nothing at all!
.

It is interesting that the insane responses  above COMPLETELY ignore that at the Passover and the Memorial of Christ's Death .... that at least two Apostles had they very own state of the art (for the time...) portable weapons with them at their meeting place.. (Luke 22:36).
About the same era. Marcus Aurelius made a statement something like "It is not the purpose of life to be in the majority ... but to avoid being in the ranks of the insane".
You can always tell who is insane.... they attack the messenger of ideas they don't like ... but never the ideas.
This is normal, but it is still insane.

Could you explain this again, please?
The problem may have something to do with  Corinthians 2:14...
"But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually"
Whoever suggested that Kingdom Halls carried the designation of "Gun Free Zones" anyway? Didn't that just come from your own head?

TTH:
I REALLY WANT TO BELIEVE that you are taunting me with the absurdity that you do not get the Meme about what sheep in a field with a "NO WOLVES" allowed sign has to do with gun control efforts by liberal Snowflakes .... but...sigh ... I will assume you do not get it.
Your comment reminds me of the girl who tells her father " Dad... I'm Pregnant!", and he looks dazed and asks "How did THAT happen?" (Answer: The usual way...).
You are a smart guy, TTH ... and I find it very VERY hard to believe you cannot make such a simple connection between what is similar between these two Memes. If this is actually TRUE, your natural intelligence has been subverted by external forces, and you are forbidden by agenda to make the connection.
To help you make the connection I am posting 3 memes 
1.) Thugs outside a Kingdom Hall "stymied" by a "NO GUN ZONE"" sign
2.) A bird sitting on a "NO BIRDS" allowed sign
3.) The grazing sheep in a field with a sign warning wolves they are not allowed in this area, as it is a "WOLF FREE ZONE"
I believe this also indirectly answers other's additional questions.
Making Kingdom Halls "Gun Free Zones" ONLY makes professional victims out of everybody inside, as anyone who is going to MURDER ... will be unconcerned with what he is "allowed to do", or NOT "allowed to do".
I am stunned that I ACTUALLY have to explain this to otherwise functional and presumably rational human beings!
Sheesh!

What this case illustrates has nothing to do with guns or no guns.
What it illustrates is that the world continues to go to hell in a hand-basket and that the stupidist thing anyone can do is to criticize non-stop the Witness organization that educates people as to the significance of it. 
Incredibly, I know of some who are that stupid.

.....

An even more interesting question should be: if the man of illegality is the clergy of Christianity, it should be the main part of Babylon the Great, is not it?
How is the man of iniquity destroyed by the spirit of the mouth of Christ (hence directly from Christ) while Babylon the Great is destroyed by the United Nations? Writing says that God (not Christ) will put in the hearts of these kings to carry out his thinking of destroying Babylon the Great.
It puts the thought (God, not Christ) but God does not destroy it directly.
Instead, the man of iniquity will be destroyed by the spirit of the mouth of Christ

Good point!
I think the usual answer is: just wait, it will happen. His presence is invisible, so the "manifestation" is at the culmination of his presence before the judgment.

"Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence" (2 Thessalonians 2:8).
I understand that Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus Christ presence began back in 1914. I also understand that JWs believe the clergy of Christendom represent the Man of Lawlessness. However, if that is the case, why have the clergy thrived since 1914? Shouldn't they be brought to "...nothing by the manifestation of his presence"?

I believe there is no reason for anyone to gossip in Jehovah’s organization, by either past or present members that still consider themselves active.

There were many levels of what was going on with the Watchtower, that opposers, now take advantage of. However, any question relating to these matters can be answered, honestly by the Watchtower, directly, or by reviewing past publications that relate to the cleansing of Jehovah’s House. There is no need to get secondhand accounts on these matters.

Contact the Watchtower, or research on your own, starting from 1966-1975, 1976-1980, 1981-1984

Yearbook 1979 page-30-1

At the same time, we will have in mind the scriptures that forewarn us of what to expect. Some will stumble and fall away or become unfruitful for various reasons. (Matt. 13:18-22) Furthermore, as shown at Revelation 3:15, 16, the Lord Jesus Christ, who knows the spiritual condition of each one who professes to be his follower, does not tolerate lukewarmness. He advises any who are in that state now to rectify their condition if they are to please him. And just as some deviated from the truth in the first century, it is not surprising that the same thing happens today. Jehovah knows those who belong to him. (2 Tim. 2:18, 19) Warning examples of what befell the Israelites as they were about to enter the Promised Land should keep us individually from becoming overconfident. (1 Cor. 10:12) The seriousness of this matter is emphasized in the fact that 29,893 were disfellowshiped last year. There is no question that our faith is being tested today. Jehovah will retain in his favor and service only those who are clean, yes, the ones striving to meet all the Scriptural requirements and prove themselves fit to be entrusted with the “good news.”—Mic. 6:8; 2 Cor. 6:17-7:1; 1 Thess. 2:4.

It only serves Satan’s propose when there is strife among the brothers.

'Nuff said!

Quite an admission on your part. But you shouldn't use forgetfulness as a "tactic." I certainly don't. Makes you sound like someone in every congressional hearing I've ever seen.
This is pure blame-shifting. You used the word "reinstate." I said I doubt it. Then you backed off your original claim about reinstatement and changed it to "come up with a Raymond supporter" and now you change it to "Bethelite and friend." So who is resorting to wordplay again?
Also, you have admitted to creating multiple accounts here. I have one account. Then you admit that you speak of "team JWI" because of my true accusation against you. This is the very definition of blame-shifting. It's about the same as Pee-Wee Herman saying, "I know you are but what am I?"
You are either confused, or as you admitted to doing before, perhaps you are using forgetfulness as a tactic. Including R.Franz and E.Dunlap (not including E.Chitty and L.Greenlees dismissed for unrelated reasons) only about 4, maybe 5 persons finally, were dismissed from Writing, and it was mostly the group that worked on the Aid Book. The actual expression you quote was about writers who built up the date 1975, not about dismissing people from the Writing Department:
*** w80 3/15 pp. 17-18 par. 6 Choosing the Best Way of Life ***
In its issue of July 15, 1976, The Watchtower, commenting on the inadvisability of setting our sights on a certain date, stated: “If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises.” In saying “anyone,” The Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah’s Witnesses, hence including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centered on that date. In fact, far from being dismissed, those persons between 1968 and 1975 were more often rewarded and promoted for it, as they were showing loyalty to a theory being especially promoted by Fred Franz in spite of the measure of doubt that some "disloyal" people were expressing. Many of these early supporters of Fred Franz were coming from the Service Department (from where "[Our] Kingdom Ministry"/"Our Kingdom Service" had included a few infamous, pro-1975 statements) and the most "loyal" of these persons were "promoted" to the Writing Department.
Ironically, this very line in the "Choosing" book, was what prompted L.Greenlees to slam down on the desk of its writer (R.Lengtat) with Greenlees yelling about how this admission of guilt had "slipped through the cracks." There was a kind of unwritten rule in Writing that you NEVER admit guilt because it will be used against you. In those days, even if a false doctrine were being corrected, you never said you were "wrong" before, only that you were now "more right" -- the "light was getting even brighter."
Never. I worked in the Art Department from just a few weeks after I arrived right up until I left Bethel. Simultaneously, I handled several research assignments for a specific committee reporting directly to Bert Schroeder for my last 4 years at Bethel and for a few years beyond while living in NYC. Most of the Art Department was either on or within one floor of the Writing Department at the time, just outside the Bethel Library at 124.
LOL! How could anyone make such a claim? I've never claimed anything like that.
I didn't say it wasn't possible, only that it wasn't substantiated as you claimed it could be.
If it makes you feel better, I will admit that I consider you to be an "opposer." For a while, I admit that I really thought you might be the kind of opposer who just pretends to be a JW, so that it will appear that JWs always choose the Watchtower over the Bible no matter what the evidence. I thought you were trying to make it look like all JWs were in a cult. I soon realized that you were more likely a person who doesn't even realize he is opposing the Bible whenever the Watchtower makes an unsubstantiated claim. But I should also repeat that I love the truth of the Bible, and love the fact that the brothers who take the lead are primarily focused on serving Jehovah and they focus more on the moral character it takes to be a true Christian.
Sure, we also have carried over some odd doctrinal traditions, but there is no excess focus on such kinds of doctrines. When the GB have looked more closely at some of these through careful Bible study, they have made changes that seem to be almost always for the better, in my opinion. And is it a bad thing that the rest of us follow their lead, and adjust our thinking right along with them? Not at all. It shows that we are not married to the incorrect doctrines of the past. It shows that we humbly follow along and understand that progress will continue. We don't think it necessary to get out there and clamor for changes on our own timetable. We are satisfied that the rate of progress is reasonable. When Brother Splane gave a talk about this recently, he used the example of a person who just loved the ideas about the "great pyramid" but that when the change was made, he humbly accepted and followed the lead. He used this as an example for those who just loved the ideas about the prophetic dramas in all the Bible narratives and parables. Yet now that these hundreds of doctrines are being dropped, the brothers will humbly accept and follow the lead -- appreciating the progress.
This is a public forum, however, open to people who can read material and evidence from anywhere. So it is also a good place for Witnesses to show that they can hold their own opinions too. And even for fellow Witnesses, there is something called the Inoculation Effect or Inoculation Theory that can make it easier for other Witnesses to understand what kinds of changes and effect the Internet will undoubtedly have on us in the next few years. We will either have to completely change our focus onto "low-information" converts, or face facts. I prefer that we allow all ends of the information spectrum without prejudice.
 
---------edited to add:----------
Bethelites are most likely STILL gossiping about R.Franz and R.Wheelock and even Joe and Barbara Anderson, even in 2017. But just to keep the timeline straight, the best evidence we have on all this still comes from R.Franz himself wh says:
R.Franz and his wife, Cynthia, requested a leave of absence in March 1980 and left Bethel late in March. In late April 1980 a list of questions was prepared by B.Schroeder and it was given to G.Suiter, K.Klein, J.Barr, L.Barry to begin questioning E.Dunlap first, then Schroeder himself interviewed the Writing Department. The secret tape where a Spanish brother had said that Cris Sanchez (Bethelite in Spanish Translation) had told him that even Rene Vazquez and Raymond Franz had similar questions had already been played for the Governing Body by Schroeder. I know that Schroeder was trying to set things in motion from late 1979 against R.Franz and it was finally working for him as of April 22, 1980 when Schroeder asked R.Franz if he could get to Brooklyn on April 29th.  Cris Sanchez was about to be disfellowshipped a few days later, on April 25, 1980, and Bert Schroeder had evidently tried to trick Raymond Franz into a judicial meeting to be held for him on April 29, 1980 to take advantage of the momentum. The GB didn't admit to Franz that his name was involved in this until May 8, 1980 and Franz flew back on May 19, 1980 for his first "trial."

Thanks I should have looked it up. It was correct, then, that she was not at Bethel when Raymond Franz was there, and she also came in just after I left, so I was not aware of the years she spent there prior to her work on the Proclaimer's book mostly in the 1990's.

This is from her official website;
Barbara Anderson was a member of Jehovah’s Witnesses from 1954 through 1997. She worked at Watchtower’s headquarters in Brooklyn, NY, from 1982 to 1992 where during her last four years there, she researched the movement’s official history (published in 1993) and did research as well as wrote a number of articles for their Awake! magazine. While working in the organization’s Writing Department, Barbara discovered that the Watchtower organization covered up child sexual molestation committed by Jehovah’s Witnesses..... 

I'm sure we can, too. It appears that those who worked directly with him supported him. But have you already forgotten your claim so quickly? You said that it could be substantiated that ex-Bethelites who supported R.Franz in the 80's, got DF'd in the process only to be reinstated. As you put it:
Perhaps you have already backed down from this unsubstantiated claim. I think anyone would agree that there were and are R.Franz supporters, though.
Barbara Anderson might be one, I don't know. But she was never at Bethel when he was there. I think she's more of a 90's Bethelite. But she completely lost her belief that this could be the truth, so I doubt anyone could talk her into coming back.
Bill Bowen might or might not; I thought he blamed him for the "two-witness" rule, too. Also, he never was a Bethelite, I don't think. And I've heard he is kind of creepy.
Ed Dunlap. Yes he was at Bethel, yes, the time period is right, and I've read in the R.Franz book that they were good friends, and I knew that they worked together. Not much chance he'll try for reinstatement. He died long before R.Franz did. 
Nestor Kuilan. That could be a candidate. He was good friends with Rene Vasquez, who was also disfellowshipped, along with Cristobal Sanchez. All of them worked on Spanish translation and all of them knew each other. But Vasquez worked outside of Bethel, and handled some Circuit Overseer assignments. That circuit covered the congregation R.Franz was in, I think. When Vasquez came to Bethel, I think he mostly came to the factory building where Sanchez and Kuilan worked (along with both their wives). I remember that Rene Vasquez sold "Shaklee" vitamins and health supplies as did many brothers in the same circuit. He had done this for years, and was one of the first and biggest suppliers in the area. That meant that a lot of other Witnesses who he had helped to get into the business were actually making a portion of their money for Vasquez, and this had become a big question that even made its way around Bethel. It turned out that some Bethelites were also selling Shaklee on the side, in the same way that a couple of sisters were selling Avon products on the side. (We didn't have the "vow of poverty" in the early 1980's.) At their next circuit assembly (in Spanish) Brother Fred Franz gave a talk and made it clear what they should do. He said:
"We get OUR VITAMINS from the Faithful and Discreet Slave!!"  
It wouldn't surprise me at all if R.Franz was the primary one behind the two-witness" rule. I remember some articles that came in for artwork from R.Franz, so I knew a little bit about his style. But I never saw anything specifically on the two-witness rule. Still, from the articles I did see, he was the one who was usually assigned to take on specific portions of "organization books" and some articles on congregational issues dealing with qualifications for elders, ministerial servants, disfellowshipping, reinstatement, and the like. Most of these types of articles were cut down into "Questions from Readers" and never got an "artwork" assignment anyway. A few of his that were full-fledged Watchtower articles would have no artwork, but would only get an assignment for someone to create or choose a special "headline font." Some of the writers interacted with the Art Dept and were "memorable" for their interactions, as they were hard to please. But I never saw R.Franz interact much. If someone (like Swingle) thought one of his articles could use some art, he'd request it, but I don't remember Franz personally interacting with anyone in Art.
LOL. If I can remember anything "juicier" you'll be one of the first to know. Or judging by how many names you appear to be using for yourself on here, you might even be the first through the fourth persons to know.

Interesting theory. I wonder if it really is substantiated however. I have not heard of one single person who supported Raymond Franz in the 80's, got disfellowshipped, and then got reinstated. It's possible, of course, but seems unlikely. I knew one Bethelite, a person who might have supported Franz in the 80's based on his current promotion of a book that R.Franz wrote. He continued as a Bethelite until about 1984? and as an elder until about 1995, but then was disfellowshipped for an unrelated issue related to divorce and re-marriage, but who now thinks he should get back in, he claims, just to help warn more people that they should get out. But I don't think he has ever tried to get back in, and in his mental situation, what would be the chances that he could get reinstated with such a negative view of the WTS? He has views similar to "Witness." Can you imagine "Witness" trying to get re-instated (assuming he was DF'd).
But this is the closest situation I know about. I imagine there are a lot of people who read Franz' books and think that a warning must go out, but it really makes no sense that people would get DF'd over their negative view of the WTS and then truly want to get back inside the WTS just to tear it down. What a waste of a life!
I think it's pretty obvious who you have actually meant to target with your wild, unsubstantiated allegations. You are wrong, of course. By the way, Raymond Franz would have been one of the most difficult persons to be a supporter of while he was at Bethel, as he was always friendly with a smile, but very few words. His weeks where he handled morning worship were never about any controversial subjects, almost always just Christian conduct and character. He was extremely quiet, unassuming and stayed very busy in his office when at work, and handled a lot of Branch visits. Most of the Governing Body did not do multi-stop Branch visits. Otherwise, he spent a lot of time in his own congregation. So what was to "support"?
In my own experience, I got married in the early 1980's and remained in New York so that I was even able to continue several research projects reporting to Bethel, which did not completely wane until 1984. I have never been disfellowshipped. Two brothers from the Writing Department gave our wedding talk, and one of them actually did fade away several years later and I haven't spoken to him since then. But the other remained in his position as editor of the Watchtower well into the 2000's. In 2013, I was asked to give the funeral talk for a person from his old congregation in NYC since he couldn't get there on time. (He lived in Patterson.) He got there later, and we ended up sharing the talk in much the same way as he had shared our wedding talk with another speaker. This was Brother Fred Rusk.
Also, can you explain your reference to "Mabon"? I looked the name up in Wikipedia and can't see what you are trying to say.
Religion and mythology
Mabon, the Autumnal equinox in some versions of the Pagan Wheel of the Year Mabon ap Modron, a figure in Welsh Arthurian legend Maponos, a pre-Christian Celtic god Mabyn or Mabon, an early Cornish saint People
Willie Mabon (1925–1985), American singer & songwriter Dickson Mabon (1925–2008), Scottish politician William Abraham (trade unionist), also known as Mabon (1842-1922), Welsh politician

Who is this "ex-Bethelite, that got kicked out of Bethel" you have referred to on multiple occasions now? Or perhaps this is just an example of what you call . . . .
 

We also paid for people to move out of the building and ended up with about a dozen elderly persons who could not be bought out at any price. We would not be able to use the entire building until they died. We moved them all onto a couple of floors that Bethelites couldn't move into until they died. The construction crew had a kind of pseudo-celebration when the last one died.
It's a curious thing, though, that the Watch Tower's history has seen this happen several times. Russell spent his and his father's money in 1877 because 1878 was going to be the "resurrection" and change from fleshly body to spiritual body. Russell bought into Barbour's Herald and helped him distribute Barbour's "Three Worlds" / "Tabernacle Shadows" and then Russell's own "Object and Manner of the Lord's Return" in huge quantities in 1877 and 1878. Then in 1913 and 1914 almost all the finances of the Society were gone. MacMillan says the Society was completely broke by mid-1914. They had spent a tremendous amount on "Photo-Drama of Creation." There was not much need to hold anything back, as everyone involved in the Society was "going home" to heaven in 1914. Then, in 1924, just one year prior to the resurrection of the ancient worthies, Rutherford took possession of a couple of houses and a couple of expensive cars for David and Abraham to drive. (This is not your fore-fathers Oldsmobile!) Also in 1924, they completed gathering the money to build their own first factory at 117 Adams Street - 8 stories, taking up an entire block.

Well - that was a lot of work to be done during an eclipse. Better to pin the planets in place for awhile. Why force yourself to do a day's work in fifteen minutes?

I just read the article. Interesting -- and today would be the anniversary of that eclipse, if true. Also noted that it works fairly close to the Bible chronology of several modern scholars, but does not fit the chronology of most religions who pay attention to that sort of thing. (Witnesses, for example.)

The glory and honor belong only to Jehovah - Psalm 150: 6 Keeping this in mind, the article that follows is not intended to be a personal celebration or celebration of the blog (Romans 3:23), but make a list of achievements will serve as encouragement to all those who wish to continue to examine the Bible without conditions. For many people, in fact, examine the Bible is "too hard", "it is just one group of people chosen", you have to have some kind of education or skills, you have to follow "what they write other", you should consult some kind of scholars etc etc . These ideas clash with scriptures as Proverbs 2: 1-6, Matthew 11:25, 26, John 17: 3; 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 and others. The Bible is a great gift that Jehovah has given to mankind and the only way to appreciate the show is to study hard and respect - Acts 17:11 Our loving Father desires that each of us is received accurate knowledge of truth so that no one is destroyed - Ezekiel 33:11; 1 Timothy 2: 4 Obviously if God deliberately prevented someone to know His Will would be a partial God but we know that is not so - Deuteronome 32: 4; Acts 10:34, 35 One of the fundamental reasons why God could "stop" to understand His Word has to do with the attitude of the person as we saw in Matthew 11:25, 26 (see also Daniel 12:10). Another reason could be that the time to understand certain details, including certain prophecies, has not yet reached - compare Daniel 9: 2; 12: 9 Perhaps there may also be other reasons, but other than that nowhere in the Bible it is said that to understand His Word is a privilege reserved for a few. On the contrary, the responsibility to investigate this remarkable book is aimed at all because even the decision will be a personal thing - John 3:19; Romans 14:10; Revelation 20:13 Beginning to overcome the barriers that exist only in our heads, maybe we can approach the study of writing having confidence that Jehovah will help us - James 1: 5 Since Jehovah's Witnesses want to be the Bible to speak and not their own ideas , some may wonder how it is possible to do this. It is useless to deny that the Bible is a very large book, and that some things are objectively difficult to understand - 2 Peter 3:15, 16 Before seeing the goals achieved, thus, the article will show which method was followed to date to ensure you have really talk about the Bible. What you will learn will highlight the guidelines of proper research and is not to be understood as something perfect and not customizable. We therefore invite all those readers who have appreciated at least some of the articles posted so far to assess the ability to break away from some paradigms and start their research autonomously using only the Bible to explain the Bible * (see footnote)   The material. What do you need. The Bible (maybe three or four different translations) and Concordance. The Concordance is the publication which has been used in all the articles posted so far. Each aid can be useful but the Concordance is the only truly neutral publication because it "limits" to put the parties together without comment, outside of context and without giving emphasis to one side than the other. On more than seventy items previously posted were used books Insight three or four times (especially for historical references), we looked for an original Greek word with an explanation of the beauty of two times but every time it writes are compared via the Concordance and these comparisons are born articles. H with a Bible and a Concordance? Then you have 90% of the material you need. So grab a pen and paper and think of a subject, any. Following real example of how the articles until now have been developed. Subject: judgment, death and sin (chosen according to the doctrine which provides that death delete sins)   The Bible is all you need   As seen in the picture, you take the subject and put aside all the scriptures together with their context. Of course the context is very important and to understand it we must, at times, input entire previous and consecutive chapters. If only  highlight writing mentioning that particular person would risk to make huge mistakes because, as Christianity has taught us well, even the Bible can do to say just about anything you want - compare Matthew 4: 5-7 In doing so, speaking of judgment, we might see as "the way of Jehovah" means to do righteousness and judgment, as the "breastplate of judgment" did robe of the High Priest and so on. Writing two or three keywords to all scriptures united by the same person, we have to learn many things on God Almighty even if they have to directly to do with what we were looking for . Let us not forget what we're looking for and why. Maybe we can set aside this information and resume them at another time. It is not excluded that a subject takes us somewhere else but for now we do not lose sight of the goal. We're trying to figure out if death really gates sin and if so you can not go to trial for the sins committed before he died. Going forward we will find Matthew chapters 5 to 23 (part highlighted in yellow), and here we begin to find something strange about current understanding. Matthew 7: 2, for example, says "because with what judgment judge, you will be judged, and the measure with which you measure, it shall be measured to you" and the question that should come to mind is "When? When will we be judged to the extent that we judged? ". The only way to make this statement of the Lord coincide with the official intention is to deduce that we will all be judged in this way before his death but also with this hypothesis things do not add up. Meanwhile, Jehovah does not put on trial the people of the first century (as is with us today) and if he did ... what's the point if then death would all be cleansed from sin and start from scratch ? That 'it s what we have been taught, right? Continuing towards the next write, we read that "the Day of Judgment it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that city" - Matthew 10:15 Okay, we're told that Jesus used a hyperbole but we chose the Concordance because of its neutrality! Reading simply the context of Matthew 10, it does not seem that we should read something other than what is written simply. However we put aside even this writing, along with its context, and we score two or three keywords. Continuing in this way will come to light many other details. If the emerging framework goes to "bump" against our understanding, what should we do? Maybe we should "pretend nothing" thinking that is not our business, that there are people chosen specifically for these things, it is better not find out the "Pandora's box" because what we might discover could be very different from what we have been taught? This would denote love and loyalty to our religion, not against the Word of God - 2 Samuel 22:26: John 17:17 Collide with something different from what we have been taught reveals that there is more at heart - Matthew 6:21; 22:37 They make an honest examination of conscience those who, rather than questioning their own beliefs, they said they " can not follow the logic of the articles" . Is this really the problem? If, as mentioned, the picture that emerges seems to bump into one of our doctrine, then we have to go see what this doctrine is based. We all agree that the Bible does not contradict itself, is not it? Always following the same method we get to the crux of the dispute: " For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin" - Romans 6: 7 What, then? It is a contradiction? Just as we have done so far, we look at the context. If we make the effort to read without preconceptions context we will see how Paul speaks of death compared to sin (verse 2) that we all were baptized in the death of Jesus (verse 3), and said that we were indeed buried with him (verse 4). There seems honestly literal language? How many of us have been buried with Christ in baptism? In addition, "we know that our old self was put to the pole with [him], so that our sinful body might be made inactive" - Romans 6: 6 Has anyone killed us when we are baptized? It 'clear that Paul is doing a lot easier than it might seem speech. If we appreciate the solemnity of baptism, we will prove to be dead with reference to sin (ie, not sinning anymore). In fact, since we are baptized we started to live a new life. From other scriptures we understand that it is not possible to "sin no more" but relying redemption and continuing to make every earnest effort, we can have a clear conscience before God. All this talk is not about the dead ones literally but in fact is the example that Paul has to make sense. But "the wages sin pays is death" .... What, then? We are once again at the head point? Absolutely not, because writing mentions the obvious: the sin leads to death. This means that in order for sin to be paid must remain in that condition - compare James 1:15 Comparing each write in their context is really a complete picture of the matter. Sin leads to death. From dead, of course, there is no longer any sin. If there were no resurrection , no one would answer for their sins. In the future, however, there will be a resurrection and that the time will respond to it - compares John 5:29 This makes us understand that Jesus was not doing hyperbole when he spoke of Sodom and Gomorrah, the profound reason why we use the term "salary" as if sin is a debt and other interesting details. And of course, this understanding does not conflict with the doctrine of the ransom because maybe not all have noticed that it is death to take away sin, then it is not the blood of Christ to do so - compares Romans 6:23 And 'death to take away sin, or is the blood of Christ? Let this simple question. If it is the blood of Christ to take away sin, those who will take advantage of the ransom will not in court - John 5:24 This topic was covered in the article entitled "Death erases really sins?" at the following link   http://attenzioneallaprofezia.blogspot.it/2017/06/la-morte-cancella-davvero-i-peccati.html   As we have achieved this goal? We had to become experts in ancient greek, we consulted hundreds of ancient manuscripts, asked for advice to various scholars, learned something from other religions or have been around the world? Absolutely not (if we did, we'd be back with more confusion than before). We have only compared the writings in context. To understand the Bible, we used the work of better consultation, the most accurate, the most objective, the most accurate : the Bible. Surely it is challenging but not difficult. Any of us can compare scripture is not it? In this way also our wisdom (presumed) passes in the second floor - 2 Corinthians 3: 4-6 What will come of it it will show what the Bible says: It is all we really need. However the human being, has a strange emotional need to complicate your life. Really such a simple method can help to reveal the Book of God? This question can only be answered with facts. With that the assumptions made at the beginning in mind , let's see what goals have been achieved and why we can be reasonably confident of being on the right track. Each subject reported below has been treated in older articles. To "make sure of all things" the reader is invited to look for these items and see if they are in harmony with Scripture.   Thanks to Jehovah, we realized that ...   1) Babylon the Great is the modern nation of Israel, NOT the world empire of false religion, and this makes logical many things including the fact that it will see only after the Lord's day and ride the UN - compares Revelation 17: 3   2) Its destruction precedes Armageddon and not the great tribulation - see Revelation 16:12, 13; 19: 11-16   3) The horsemen of the apocalypse of war, famine and deadly plague are led into battle by Jesus Christ (it is his "arrows") and this is in keeping with many judgments of the past where Jehovah has used the pagan nations - see Revelation 6: 1, 2, 3, 5, 7 and Psalm 45: 1-6   4) The first plagues of Revelation indiscriminately affect God's people as the people of the world just as happened during the plagues of Egypt.   5) There will be a world war that will bring down the king of the south and this harmonizes both Daniel and the last and only power that we see in Revelation and which so far has been erroneously identified as the Anglo-American empire.   6) The Revelation trumpets are sequential, and then is written in chronological order - compare 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52; Revelation 11:11, 12, 15   7) The anointed did not start to rise again in 1919 but will start to rise again at the sound of the seventh trumpet, shortly after the killing of two witnesses in sackcloth (future event).   8) The war in heaven break out soon after the ringing of the seventh trumpet, and will last about 30 days. These are also the "days shortened for the elect" in the likeness of what happened in the first century.   9) At the end of the war Satan will be thrown on the ground and from that moment can only act for 42 months (1260 days), which is a short period of time. 10) These are the 42 months of the great tribulation period.   11) At the end of the 1260 days of great tribulation will start Armageddon (with the fall of Babylon the Great), which will last 45 days.   12) Before Armageddon God he will lead his people to "Edom" and "Moab" that is, in a free zone where their lives and prepare to cross the Promised Land. The literal repopulation of Israel (after the destruction that has liberated from Babylon the Great) harmonises the scriptures that say that the people of Israel would be rejected but the nation was inhabited from generation to generation as the nation chosen by God to reside His Name. This situation makes us understand what it refers to writing when he says that the king of the north "will be troubled by news from the east and from the north" because it will come to know that God's people survived his fury and now is reaching promised land in fulfillment of Bible prophecy.   13) The War of the Great Day of God Almighty will take place in a relatively small area of the earth but it will be the greatest war in history where they will die the kings of the earth and their armies.   14) The Jerusalem Above is the organizational part of God's people and not heavenly organization made up of faithful spirit creatures and loyal men. This explains how it is possible that Satan tries to "drown her" spewing a river of water behind her. This awareness helps us to understand many basic things such as what is the one people of God on earth, because Christ is called "son of man" and the depth of meaning of Genesis 3:15 prophecy. 14 a ) The Above Jerusalem, towards the end of satanic system, will be led by members of the great crowd and be nourished by God to the end.   15) Armageddon will destroy the wild beast, the false prophet, all those who have the mark of the false prophet, who has opposed true Christians etc. There will be destroyed all people nor all the nations, apart from the dominant power that will end up in the lake of fire, the other kingdoms will be "removed the domain" but an extension of life will be granted for a time and a season. This period refers after Armageddon and until the end of the millennium .
This awareness helps us to understand how is it that Satan's bait to mislead "the nations which are in the four corners of the earth" after a thousand years of sinking and to understand who is Gog of Magog and how he can "check" in the middle of the Millennial Kingdom   And many other things (the original post had a list of 26 important subjects but the article would become long, boring and certainly confusing for those who come to this post for the first time).   Article wanted to highlight a simple concept as it is profound. The Bible was also written for you. You can understand it. If you will have the intellectual honesty to get back fully into question, they will come to understand many things. Do not be afraid to find things very different from what we have been taught. Paradoxically, although this process has called into question some doctrines and virtually all the prophecies , has also shown that there is only one people of God on earth and it is this . According to the prophecies of this people it will be disciplined for this reason. Know the prophecies will allow us to not be shocked when these things begin to come true. The prophecy enables us to see beyond the darkness that is going to get even giving us the chance to help others. The prophecy, among other things, says that at one point "knowledge will become abundant." We will be among those who have insight and who will enjoy the blessings future? By our attitude, we decide it even now.
If we continue to appreciate the Word of God above all else humbly asking Him to enlighten us to understand it, we will not be disappointed - Job 36:22; Psalm 119: 99   Footnote. The article is not meant to imply that, following such a method, you can not make mistakes. Even you do not want to diminish the importance of Hebrew or Ancient greek but today will be provided with many versions of the Bible that nornalmente you need to compare multiple versions to understand what fits best not with our preconceptions but with the context. The harmony of the Bible, alone, is able to refute all acts speeches to demonstrate unbiblical beliefs.   Plaese, visit https://attenzioneallaprofezia.blogspot.it/          

I have a hard time with most of this because it assumes things about the 144k that just isn't in the Bible. 

The current understanding being promoted by the "Watchtower" is that the "Great Crowd" of (Rev 7:9-14) is the "earthly" group of redeemed mankind, which make it through the Great Tribulation .
However, is there something here that we have missed?  Or have we been deliberately misled? After all who is misleading the entire inhabited earth? (Rev 12:9) 
Jesus said if possible even the chosen ones. (Mt 24:24) (Mark 13:22) 
Jesus said the truth will set you free. (John 8:32)  We need to know what is true and what is not.  It is of utmost importance. 
The bible says “Let God be found true, though every man be found a liar” (Romans 3:4)
Jesus and his Father would not want us to believe a lie. Although many feel we should wait on God to rid us of lies (as if our believing them, are His fault), God Himself does not ask us to wallow in the untrue doctrines of men.    
However, he does not remove our free will. He allows leaders who choose to mislead others, as well as followers who choose to be mislead. 

The Father is a God of Truth.   (John 17:17)    Jesus never taught that it is finer to surrender loyalty to the truth, in favor of keeping unity and peace at all cost with those who prefer to cling to errors and traditions.  He clung to God's word, defying the authority of his time even at the cost of his life.
Should we be loyal to, in harmony with, and in subjection to any religious leaders, at the cost of Truth? 
 An anointed one recently showed me that the Great Crowd described in Revelation (Rev.7:9) may actually be the “Remnant” of sealed anointed ones who make it through the Great Tribulation.  
I put a link "Who is the Great Crowd"  written by this anointed one.  
(It is a more in-depth article) 
The link is located later in my article. 
 Also... this is not the first time that (Revelation 7:9) came under scrutiny.  
At the end of this article please see what happened in 1980.

        Some misconceptions are revealed over time, for instance in 1925 there was a public talk entitled “Millions now living will Never Die”.  That was later changed to “May” never die for obvious reasons.  If that talk were to be given today it would be:
 “ Millions then  living… are now dead ”.      Truth be told.
Other strongly entrenched things may need a deeper investigation in the scriptures (Hebrews 4:12)
This may be the case with who really is the Great Crowd.  (Re 7:9)
The New World Translation at (Revelation 7:9) reads like this:  “After these things I saw, and, look! A great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes…”
We are told that these ones are the earthly class who are not anointed, because no man can number them, and because the Watchtower says that the number of anointed ones totals 144,000. ..A definite number.  But is this enough of an explanation? Should there be more scriptural evidence?
Are there any scriptures describing the anointed that fits in with the description listed in (Revelation 7:9)? 
Yes there are.
However, before we take a look at those scriptures, can any man (or woman) answer this question?
How many persons make up the “remnant” of sealed anointed ones, during the last days?  (Those sealed anointed ones who come out of the Great Tribulation)
Is any man able to number that?     The “remnant” is by definition the “left-over” ones, or the“remaining ones” of her seed (Rev 12:17).  How many make up the remnant??? 
So it can be said that “no man is able to number” the size of the remnant.  It could be a great crowd.

Let’s look at those scriptures now:
  (Revelation 19:1, 4, 6 7 8)  Here in heaven, twice it is said of those in heaven... a… “Voice of agreat crowd  ” was heard.
 (New World Translation)
  (Revelation 5:9, 10)  “…you bought persons out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” (NWT)...  (again, referring to the 144,000).
  (Revelation 3:4, 5) speaks of the 144,000 anointed ones having “white outer garments” “white ones.”   At (Revelation 19:14) the armies are clothed in white, clean, fine linen. (NWT) 
Revelation 17:14 shows that the army riding with Jesus are his chosen faithful ones:
New Living Translation

Together they will go to war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will defeat them because he is Lord of all lords and King of all kings. And his called and chosen and faithful ones will be with him."
(Re 19:8)…The bride of the lamb is said to be arrayed in bright, clean, fine linen…(again speaking of the 144,000 anointed ones).
Other scriptures of interest concerning clean white garments, or robes are 
(Mark 16:5; Luke 9:29; 24:4;  John 20:12; Acts 1:10)
But what about the sealed anointed being dressed in ...
“white robes”... can we be more specific?
Why yes.  In his ongoing vision, just before John sees this great crowd in... 
(Re 7:9) dressed in “white robes” he saw the following:
 (Revelation 6:9, 10,) (Re 6:11)… “And a white “robe” was given to each of them.
So there it is…the description fits like a glove. 
 A great crowd… that no man is able to number,
Out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,
Standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes.

How can the Great Crowd be anointed ones, despite the fact that we can not "number" them?
If 144,000 is the total number of the anointed, and the anointed that come through the Great Tribulation can not be numbered; it is also possible that the Great Crowd is PART of the total number. How big is that part? Apparently, no one can say.
It is like the Great Crowd is a piece of a whole pie. How big is the slice? No one can say.
 
Here is some supporting research done by the group that had scrutinized the doctrine about the Great Crowd earlier back in 1980.
Revelation 7:9 came under scrutiny  Back in 1980.    Quite a few of our brothers, highly respected members of our Watchtower Headquarters in Brooklyn N.Y. were disfellowshipped on charges of “Apostasy”.  Even a member of the Governing Body was forcibly removed and disfellowshipped.  The Governing Body would not re-consider the “doctrine” even though the scruitiny is based on solid evidence from the Holy Scriptures.
Here is some of their research concerning the Greek words used in Revelation as it refers to the location of the “Great Crowd”:
Naos: Divine Habitation, inner temple sanctuary…the Most Holy.
Naos refers to the inner sanctuary of the temple complex which included the Holy and Holy of Holies (or Most Holy).
Hieron is the Greek word for the entire temple complex with all its sub-structures and courts.
The distinction between these two terms is well defined in the Watchtower of August 15, 1960. Explaining the second chapter of John (which describes the presence of the money changers and all the animals which were being sold in the temple), page 493, paragraph two of the article entitled "The Temple of the Apostles' Time" says:
What kind of building could this be that had room for all this traffic? The fact is that this temple was not just one building but a series of structures of which the temple sanctuary was the center. In the original tongue this is made quite clear, the Scripture writers distinguishing between the two by the use of the words hieron and naos. Hieron referred to the entire temple grounds, whereas naos applied to the temple structure itself, the successor of the tabernacle in the wilderness. Thus John tells that Jesus found all this traffic in the hieron.
It was from the courts of the outer temple (hieron--not naos) that Jesus drove the money changers. (See Matt. 21:12, Mark 11:15, Luke 19:45 and John 2:14, 15 in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation.)

It was the entire temple (hieron--not naos) that was destroyed as a judgment from God. (SeeMatt. 24:1,2, Mark 13:1-3 and Luke 21:5,6 in the Kingdom Interlinear.)
The earthly courtyard is located "outside of  the temple [sanctuary] (naos)" while the "great crowd" of Revelation 7:15 is described as being inside the temple sanctuary or naos. 

It is evident that throughout the book of Revelation the term naos is used repeatedly to refer exclusively to the innermost part of the temple, the heavenly sanctuary in its figurative application

Revelation 11:2 says in the New World Translation:
But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary] (naos), cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations ["Gentiles"--AV, NEB, Moffat], and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

Another point of importance is the fact that, at Revelation 7:9, 15, the "great crowd" is said to be"before the throne" of God.
As the Society's publications have pointed out, the Greek word translated "before" in this text isenopion and it literally means "in [the] sight [of]." (For example on page 123 of the book, Revelation Its Grand Climax at Hand [1988])
This Greek word is used repeatedly throughout the book of Revelation to locate objects and persons "before" or "in the sight of" God in heaven.
Looking up the following verses in The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scripturesmakes this clear:
Revelation 1:4
-
"Seven spirits that are before (enopion) his [God's] throne"
Revelation 4:5
-
"Seven lamps of fire burning before (enopion) the throne [of God]"
Revelation 4:6
-
"And before (enopion) the throne [of God] there is, as it were, a glassy sea like crystal."
Revelation 4:10
-
"The twenty-four elders fall down before (enopion) the One seated upon the throne..., and they cast their crowns before (enopion) the throne"
Revelation 7:9
-
"A great crowd, ... standing before (enopion) the throne and before (enopion)the Lamb"
Revelation 7:11
-
"And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before (enopion) the throne and worshiped God"
Revelation 7:15
-
"That is why they [the great crowd] are before (enopion) the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service"
Revelation 8:3
-
"And another angel arrived and stood at the altar, having ... incense ... to offer ... with the prayers of all the holy ones upon the golden altar that wasbefore (enopion) the throne."
Revelation 9:13
-
"And I heard one voice out of the horns of the golden altar that is before (enopion) God."
Revelation 11:16
-
"And the twenty-four elders who were seated before (enopion) God"
Revelation 14:3
-
"And they [the 144,000] are singing as if a new song before (enopion) the throne and before (enopion) the four living creatures and the elders"
 
Since these other things are considered to be “in heaven”, it stands to reason that the “Great Crowd” can also be “In heaven” and therefore could very well be the anointed invited ones and not the earthly class of humans. 


This coupled with the scriptural evidence cited above in my article should be sufficient for any reasonable person to see that it is possible that the Great Crowd of (Revelation 7:9) can very well be the remnant of anointed ones who make it through the Great Tribulation in the last days.
Obadiah Doxsey