Srecko Sostar

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Maybe we can say it’s okay to join us but they don’t have to use the main auditorium; we’ll reserve space for them in the spare room where we keep the literature carts. 

Motive understood. Even BTK will acquiesce, I think.

Meanwhile, hopefully they will not be like that guy on the Titanic who inspected the lifeboat safety inspection sticker, saw it did not incorporated the latest methods, and declined to board.

At first glance, logic and reasoning could support the illustration of the Titanic and the inspection sticker, and most JWs would accept it as a good and ingenious answer to the objection.
What is important about the correctness of inspection sticker (for a boat or fire extinguisher, etc.) is that the "Responsible Person" of an institution ("Titanic") must check in a timely manner (on a regular basis) whether the "thing" is correct and up-to-date. It is not the duty of the user who finds himself in trouble. The "responsible person" will be responsible for damages if someone is injured due to the malfunction (or wrong instructions) of the "boat" or "fire extinguisher".
So trivializing and downplaying how accurate the "sticker" is is a successful method of self-delusion for the everyday life of any JWs (or anyone else), just until a shipwreck or fire occurs.

Did ex-JWs jump into the sea without a boat from the Titanic aka WTJWorg? Does WTJWorg even have "lifeboats" in case their ship sinks? No, GB does not have boats in preparation on its ship, because they are convinced of "unsinkability" like the captain of the Titanic. No JWs have a choice about the method of saving their life when they realize that the "ship is sinking". Since there are no boats on the WTJWorg ship, the only way is to "jump into the sea". Some survive the fall, but some get injured or even die.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Curiously the Watchtower’s teachings surrounding the Great Pyramid of Giza took almost exactly 47 years before Jehovah saw fit to correct them. 

The number 47 has spiritual implications for some because it is found in biblical texts. How many were or will be the "47 annual milestones" in WTJWorg that will mark "progress" and "improvements" because it is supposedly, a moment of "divine guidance" and his "intervention"?
As you yourself used the word "curiously", I am convinced that you also think that it is just that, curiosity, and nothing more than a human delusions, like "improvements" about/on women's pants, men's beards and something/anything else.  

17 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You know, whatever happened to Srecko—another one who has disappeared? Maybe he and Pudgy also went down into the abyss, locked in mortal semi-disagreement.

The human personality, or if you will, some kind of our vanity, likes to hear him mentioned by people who are thousands of kilometers away compared to those (exemplary JWs) who live in the same city and no longer respond even with a simple greeting.
Although I must also say that there are one or two JWs who stopped contacting me 9 years ago, but still greeted me (with a smile but with restraint) during a recent meeting on the street.

The topics here are interesting, always. But I can confirm with pleasure that the general communication and expression of views, arguments and everything else that occurs in the discussions, clearly indicate the correctness of my decision that I made in leaving WTJWorg. Thank you all for that.  

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. - Gen 3:16

What form of "patriarchy" is prophesied here? Jewish form ? 1st century Christian form? Catholic form? Protestant form? WTJWorg form?

1 hour ago, BTK59 said:

However, scripture teaches that the responsibility of decision-making lies with responsible individuals, just as Jesus entrusted that responsibility to the apostles, who in turn delegated it to the Elders and successors thereafter.

1 hour ago, BTK59 said:

If people are attentive to the actions and behavior of others, the observer, entrusted by God to take earthly action through scripture, should rely solely on that understanding. The instructions from the Governing Body do not have to be comprehensible to apostates; rather, they should serve to validate the beliefs of genuine witnesses and expose any imposters

To "clarify" this topic for the readers. This "spiritual heritage of management" culminated in the formation of today's GB. How does GB work? It governs dogmas, instructions, supervises, governs how JWs should live. How do they come to decisions? By voting of all GB members. If 2/3 of the members outvote 1/3 of the members, then the decision is considered valid. What does this say about the activities of the HS (Jesus and God) under whose "leadership" all members of the GB are allegedly act? This tells us about several possible implications.

1. not all GB members are influenced by the "same HS" when making decisions
2. HS does not "lead" all GB members equally and simultaneously, in harmony, in unity,
3. the decisions made by the GB are not united by "one spirit", that means the HS is disunited or the GB is disunited,
4. none of the JWs have a guarantee that the decisions made by the GB are the "will of God", that is, that they are for the benefit of the believers. God's will consists in the fact that the "sheep" do not go astray, but if the decision was made only because of 2/3 who overrode, overrule 1/3, then it is not God's will but human,
5. the annulled decisions of the previous GB prove that they were "human decisions" without "guidance by HS",
6. the previous statement (No.5) proves that even the current decisions of GB do not have to be "from HS"

12 hours ago, BTK59 said:

12 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Do you and GB believe that a repentant JW who is a murderer, thief, liar, etc. is in a better position than an unrepentant JW who has stopped believing in GB interpretations and openly admits it?

The authority to judge lies with God, not the GB. While God has the ability to see into the hearts and minds of people, the Governing Body lacks this capability. Repentance can be found in the genuine willingness of an individual to demonstrate it through their actions and behavior. Nevertheless, there is no assurance, as the human heart is capable of deceit.

If you think like that, then it is also clear to you that GB has no justification for making decisions about who can and who cannot be greeted.

12 hours ago, BTK59 said:

12 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

How is it possible for someone to be an "apostate" in a religion that is "apostate" in itself?
To briefly explain why I used the term "apostate religion" for JWs. Other religions that are "older" than WTJWorg claim that JWs broke away from the "true" Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox and similar Christian religions. On the other hand JWs claim the same for them. In all religions there are dogmas that are incorrect. WTJWorg also proved with their theological changes that they are not a "true" religion, because they should not change their dogmas if they were correct and true. If they changed the previous dogmas that were untrue, it also gives an acceptable conclusion that they will change the current dogmas as well, because practice and experience show that nothing guarantees that the current ones are correct.

This depends on who is making the observation. If this mindset originates from an apostate perspective, it is futile. Apostasy is the conscious denial of something valuable, a value that profoundly reflects on God. Believing that one's former religion holds no value to God renders apostasy meaningless. The crucial point here is true worship, not false religion.

You contradict yourself again and again, because you stated that only God sees the true situation. This means that you have admitted that GB, and also that you personally, do not know who is an "apostate" and who is not. Because, you say, the point is who makes the observation. Since the observation is made by "imperfect" people, their assessment of who is a "renegade, apostate" is based on shaky, unreliable, inaccurate and biased conclusions. GB regularly confirms, with their nonsensical instructions, that they have placed themselves at that level of power.

45 minutes ago, BTK59 said:

Well, this depends on how you view repentance. Why would anyone want to associate with such a negative person who is a hardcore apostate with evil intentions and no chance of redemption? Indeed, there is no thesis involved, only the application of common sense.

God's people need to understand the scheme of things, but apostates do not. 

Do you and GB believe that a repentant JW who is a murderer, thief, liar, etc. is in a better position than an unrepentant JW who has stopped believing in GB interpretations and openly admits it?

How is it possible for someone to be an "apostate" in a religion that is "apostate" in itself?
To briefly explain why I used the term "apostate religion" for JWs. Other religions that are "older" than WTJWorg claim that JWs broke away from the "true" Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox and similar Christian religions. On the other hand JWs claim the same for them. In all religions there are dogmas that are incorrect. WTJWorg also proved with their theological changes that they are not a "true" religion, because they should not change their dogmas if they were correct and true. If they changed the previous dogmas that were untrue, it also gives an acceptable conclusion that they will change the current dogmas as well, because practice and experience show that nothing guarantees that the current ones are correct.

A paradox simply arises; What authority do the apostates who run WTJWorg have (from God) to call other members of their church by the same name "apostates"? In which arrangement, in which organizational structure does one class of apostates have a legitimate right to condemn another class of apostates? lol

Massimo Introvigne is a lobbyist for WTJWorg. So it's interesting to hear how an ex-JW from Norway comments on this lobbyist that WTJWorg likes to use for its defense. The most interesting is the new thesis of GB in which it creates a categorization of former members. According to their latest instruction, you can greet a former member (but only to a limited extent, without socialization) who wants to come to a meeting in KH. But another "type", labeled as "apostate" of ex-JW should not be welcomed.

So, GB sinks deeper and deeper into their instructions that "make sense only from their point of view", while ordinary JWs mostly cannot understand them, but are obliged to obey, because these are the "last days".

8 hours ago, BTK59 said:

The current perception of this site as a right-wing disinformation platform for conspiracy theorists is not surprising, given its present state of factual inaccuracies.

It is unfortunate that certain individuals taint the spiritual nourishment shared by others through the existence of both closed clubs and open forums. If I were the proprietor, I would opt to close the open forum and subsequently dissolve the closed club, merging them into a single entity. This would allow individuals, regardless of whether they presently identify as Jehovah's Witnesses or have previously done so, whether they are disfellowshipped or disenchanted, to freely express their apostasy and disinformation. This approach would effectively confine their deviations from the truth, maintaining the privacy they deserve.

Therefore, individuals such as myself would not be granted access, since it would be an exclusive club with strict membership criteria. However, the public wouldn't see their nonsense thus having no need for them to see any criticism, even though they claim the right to critique others without any objections. Quite ironic, isn't it?

In such a future of yours, the original JWs could have two sources of information; official WTJWorg site and Court Documents. They wouldn't watch these others because GB would declare it "hostile reading". lol

1 hour ago, BTK59 said:

These individuals seem to believe that their arguments are not insulting, when in fact, they are far more damaging than mere insults.

You want to say that only those arguments with which you agree are acceptable (to you)?
Yes indeed, a good argument. Who wouldn't accept it. lol

Is this an insult?

COMMENTS ON THE ARTICLE: “JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES IN NORWAY: WHY THE OSLO DISTRICT COURT IS WRONG”

Av Rolf Furuli 8. March 2024

https://mybelovedreligion.no/2024/03/08/comments-on-the-article-jehovahs-witnesses-in-norway-why-the-oslo-district-court-is-wrong/

17 minutes ago, BTK59 said:

Hence, your opinion holds no weight.

We will ask Jesus about everything when we see him,........... at least that's what GB Geoffrey Jackson says in his public testimony under oath. lol

9 hours ago, BTK59 said:

Therefore, the admonition of the apostle James was truly refreshing. In James 5:19-20 he imparts invaluable wisdom.

¹⁹ My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, ²⁰ remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

JWs preaching to sinners. How does it look? What do the JWs preach to them? That now men are allowed to wear beards and women are allowed to wear trousers. And according to you, that is "the truth"? lol

How will telling the truth or inaccuracy, errors, whatever, save you from all kinds of sin, when the Bible also says that you reap what you sow? Preaching interpretations from GB will certainly not cover your or anyone else's personal sins. In addition, if Jesus has redeemed you from sin, original and any other you commit, then works do not save, but faith and Jesus' sacrifice. On the other hand, good deeds are not done to redeem yourself from your sins and mistakes, because the redeemer is Jesus, not man alone. Some do "good deeds" because they are haunted by their own conscience or are under the impression of some (own or other's) belief.

2 hours ago, BTK59 said:

 

error

2 hours ago, BTK59 said:

An intelligent person would understand it to mean both. However, it seems that this is where you fall short. Therefore, when Jesus invited sinners to repent, it would mean a transformation not only of their hearts but also of their minds.

What quotient should be the intelligence of a person to accept Jesus?

I'm interested in how you measure the quality or quantity of that something in the heart, and I guess that would be a prerequisite for a person to accept Jesus, too?

What category does mind fall into in all of this?

Intelligence, heart, mind = ?.., transformation?

Can a person with reduced intelligence carry out the transformation?

12 hours ago, BTK59 said:

True intelligence lies in recognizing the importance of not giving heed to apostates.

lol

You're on the wrong track with your reasoning. Since the dilemma of "true and false faith" is a religious question, not an intellectual one. So, Jesus invites all people, regardless of their IQ, to join him. In his sermons, Jesus appeals to the heart, not to the intelligence. So, if you want to defend your position with the Bible, then it is not a "sin" but a "failure".

12 hours ago, BTK59 said:

What relevance does the word "definition" have in relation to your particular regional Orthodox religion? It appears that you are defending that false religion that defends the heinous crimes of Russia's Putin. How much child abuse has that abusive person caused to Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia? Pause and consider the numerous forms of child abuse. Why aren't you addressing this issue here? That's right, you just want to act foolishly and selectively.

Please look at the map of Europe and the country where I live. It is not Orthodox but Catholic. You don't need to "attack" something that I don't defend, because that doesn't make sense for discussion.

1 hour ago, BTK59 said:

I believe you are an intelligent person, although at times that might be a stretch.

Intelligence is not the only quality that can save a person from fraud. JWs, along with many other religious people, are proof of this.

1 hour ago, BTK59 said:

You mentioned 60 years in contrast to other religions that have annual occurrences, even in your Orthodox religion within your region and among your people in your community.

Word Origin

When someone has the same opinions and beliefs as those held by most other people, these opinions are usually considered the "right" opinions to have. In English such opinions might be called "orthodox." The English word orthodox comes originally from the Greek words orthos, meaning "right, true" and doxa, meaning "opinion." These two words were combined to form the Greek verb orthodoxein, meaning "to have the right opinion." From orthodoxein came the Greek adjective orthodoxos, which was borrowed into Latin as orthodoxus. The English adjective orthodox comes from this Latin adjective. - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/orthodox

Considering that I do not belong to any religion, your statement makes no sense. Another thing that needs to be said for objective accuracy is the term "orthodoxy". Every religion is orthodox in its essence, even when it changes in its doctrines. The country I live in is historically Catholic. JWs are orthodox because they do not accept religious change unless approved by their GB. So JWs are completely orthodox as long as they believe that they are the only ones right in claiming that their Christianity is "original" and is "only true".

1 hour ago, BTK59 said:

You are calling God a failure, yet you don't comprehend that you are the failure as his creation. 

God is as successful as his creation. Considering that God said that everything created is "good", then every person today is also "success" because he/she is the inheritor of the original act of creation. Also, God nowhere indicated that any child born of Adam and Eve is/was "failure". If you want to use a religiously colored term for something that designates me or you in some moral category, then it is the word "sinful", not "failure".

15 hours ago, BTK59 said:

This article, dated in the year 1999, predates the UN's interest in 2012. It serves as a strong argument for highlighting the Watchtower's unwavering commitment to addressing the issue of child abuse since the 60s, even before laws were passed and debated by governments worldwide in 2015.

If WTJWorg wanted to prove its "unwavering commitment" in dealing with CSA, then it should not, as in the case of the Australian branch, hide from its own public the large number of pedophiles who ran rampant in JW congregations all those 60 years and more. Moreover, the GB instructions contributed to the ineffectiveness of elders handling CSA claims within the congregation. Instead of cooperating with the civil authorities, they kept everything secret and even prevented the victims from fighting for minimal justice.

15 hours ago, BTK59 said:

Yes, that's right! The ultimate solution to these heinous crimes of pedophilia and child abuse lies in the establishment of a new world order guided by the principles of Christ. While we await this transformative era, we must diligently address the issue at hand, even if it means temporarily employing stopgap measures. We rely on individuals of unwavering morality. How do you control the uncontrollable in Satan's World? That's the Watchtowers expectation in ensuring that our collective effort maintains hope for a better future without such atrocities. 

GB has already proven its "transformative" role. After a decades of banning beards and trousers, a "successful transformation" has been carried out. Does anyone who sees only this sliver of reality about GB expect that these are the people "of unwavering morality"  who will be the foundation of the NWO you speak so passionately about? GB people who bring bans and permits about beards and pants, about monthly reports, about greeting and not greeting former JWs, etc. are not the base or foundation of some imaginary new and healthy human society. This type of individuals who are united in a specific group of manipulators of other people's faith and conscience does not deserve trust.

Are you waiting for a transformation? Transformation will not happen tomorrow or in the future. If it didn't start happening in the past or today, then it won't happen. While an individual lives, he/she is or is not part of the transformation. In which transformation are we personally participating? Will there be a transformation due to our activity or passivity? Changes happen with us or without us, that's clear. Don't wait for the NWO, because some other people will live in it. You and I already live in a form of the NWO created by people from the past. To put it simply.

@Pudgy

Thanks for the info.

So, JWs do not celebrate birthdays because it has pagan roots.

But they also shave their beards despite the fact that shaving has pagan roots.

What an inconsistency!

lol

15 hours ago, George88 said:

It is important for you to demonstrate that the DB does not receive the Holy Spirit of God.

If we want to include the biblical text in a possible answer to this dilemma, then based on the experience of people who "received HS" in the period covered by the Bible, we could come up with elements, indicators of what a person receiving HS looks like, how a person receiving HS behaves and what effects, actions in relation to people and the environment does a person who gets HS have.
Should we read together the Bible passages that describe the HS and the people of Bible time, in order to come to the answer?

Which biblical persons with the power, gift of HS can we compare with a member of GB??

And vice versa,

Which member of GB can we compare to a biblical person who acts under the power, gift of HS??

15 hours ago, George88 said:

Why would the Holy Spirit of God lead someone astray?

²⁰  Jehovah then said, ‘Who will fool Aʹhab, so that he will go up and fall at Raʹmoth-gilʹe·ad?’ And one was saying one thing while another said something else. ²¹  Then a spirit*r came forward and stood before Jehovah and said, ‘I will fool him.’ Jehovah asked him, ‘How will you do it?’ ²²  He replied, ‘I will go out and become a deceptive spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’s So he said, ‘You will fool him, and what is more, you will be successful. Go out and do that.’ ²³  And now Jehovah has put a deceptive spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours,t but Jehovah has declared calamity for you.”u 1. Kings 22,NWT

⁹  “‘But if the prophet is fooled and gives a response, it is I, Jehovah, who have fooled that prophet. I will then stretch out my hand against him and annihilate him from my people Israel.

1 hour ago, George88 said:

I'm not sure if you are referring to "attorney" or "authority," but if you are implying "authority," then the responsibility lies on you, as an apostate, to provide evidence that the Governing Body does not receive God's Holy Spirit, based solely on your own words.

Sorry for google translate. It is about power, authority, authorization, mandate.

1 hour ago, George88 said:

The GB interprets scripture in the manner it was originally intended, following Christ's example. Just as Jesus highlighted the misinterpretation of the scrolls and God's words by the Pharisees, there is no alternative way to interpret scripture

quote: "..,provide evidence that the Governing Body does not receive God's Holy Spirit..,"

quote: "The GB interprets scripture in the manner it was originally intended...,there is no alternative way to interpret scripture"

In an effort to accept your claims and belief about GB, we would have to reconcile the view that the way Jesus and God works is visible in the practice of GB. They (GB) make a "biblically based" conclusion (interpretation) which later turns out to be incorrect and wrong. So Jesus and God misrepresented his ideas to them? Or did they not understand them? Truly the "divine way" of communication.

An "alternative" to the previous explanation always exists in the WTJWorg religion. Sufficient evidence to question whether GB members "got the spirit" for the dogmas that have already changed as well as those that did not (but will be, lol).

7 hours ago, George88 said:

So, let me get this straight: you're suggesting that Jesus was merely an administrator alongside the apostles. Is that what you're trying to convey? If so, I must say, you seem to be in the minority with that belief. However, I'm interested to hear more about your perspective.

I see no connection between Jesus and GB. Can you somehow prove that GB received power of attorney from Jesus? Please, without the explanations that we have already heard so many times, because they are without any value. Bring something new and real to the table.

7 hours ago, George88 said:

Please inform me where they made their demand. I am eager to receive your evidence.

Again, I direct you to listen to their speeches and written text. There is an answer to your question.

7 hours ago, George88 said:

It seems like you have a serious problem with God.

This is a good question. But it should be expanded, for example like this: Do people have a problem with God who is interpreted in the way GB does? This kind of question is also applicable to any other "God" that people worship.

7 hours ago, George88 said:

You are implying that the Watchtower should defy governments that demand compliance. However, when the Watchtower does comply, apostates witnessing such events draw the wrong conclusion and demand resistance instead of obedience. Have you considered the implications of your argument?

It is public knowledge that WTJWorg asks its followers to disobey laws that are contrary, according to the GB interpretation, to the "laws of God". The public speeches of GB members and other GB representatives have clearly expressed the intention that WTJWorg will never deviate from the "biblical principles" that are inherent and unique to the religion of JWs. So it is known who promotes disobedience to the "secular authorities" in all matters determined by the GB. So much about/for implications.

GB decide to give permission.  lol

5 hours ago, George88 said:

Why do you complain about revisions then? I can't remember a time when a recommendation turned into a license.

In the context of my comment about WTJWorg, it ceases to matter whether the revisions are evidence of JW progress or regression. They are proof that GB is nothing but an administrative creation created in the way that all human creations are created and does not prove the so-called "divine guidance" in its action.

Recommendations? You didn't listen to their Update carefully. lol

5 hours ago, George88 said:

When did you come to the realization that the Watchtower organization has attained perfection and is able to safeguard individuals from making misguided decisions due to their mental state? Like any other institution, the Watchtower provides guidance and suggestions, and it's important for you to analyze your own thoughts more critically. Are you implying that you yourself are flawless and have never committed any sins whatsoever? I'm not referring specifically to pedophilia, but rather speaking in general terms.

The mantra of "perfection" and "imperfection" is constantly present in GB speeches. You repeat after them like a parrot, pardon the expression. I did not comment on that in this thread. 

Their claim that they are "imperfect" is just an attempt to make excuses for their own failings and faulty, sometimes dangerous instruction that creates a general mess.

5 hours ago, George88 said:

The Watchtower's expectation is for everyone to embrace a Christian life and follow the teachings of God. It is a personal choice if someone falls short of that. Elders cannot prevent someone from engaging in private and secret activities as they cannot read minds. Why not ask your good friend this question? Discover what kind of response you will receive.

Follow the teachings that are mix of Bible and WTJWorg interpretations. 

Of course that elders cannot prevent secret activities of members, but they prevent secular authorities to do their job by hiding information and not reporting crimes.

7 hours ago, BTK59 said:

No, that is merely a distorted version of events, as told by uninformed witnesses and former members. Since the 60s, The Watchtower has consistently brought attention to the issue of child abuse, fearlessly delivering their message in various forms. The publicans and the letter to the Elders provide evidence of that. However, instead of learning, it seems like the wrong party is dissenting. It doesn't matter how deeply misinformed individuals hold onto lies, because ultimately, God knows the truth.

Fine, if you say so. Now I ask, of what use has this ("attention") been to the thousands of victims within the WTJWorg global organization? 
How did JW elders "protect" the herd? How did they "prevent" the spread of the "sin" of pedophilia for the last 60 years? Only recently has it become a "crime" at WTJWorg. "Evidence" shows that they failed.