Srecko Sostar

On 1/2/2020 at 5:49 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

Does it mean that there legitimately are two different ways of looking at a matter

Yes, two ways. You can tell a lie, half-truth, truth without some important elements ... etc. ... if that is helping God' and Jesus' and Kingdom' interests here on Earth. But when you have to tell about same things to elders you are not entitled to use "theocratic warfare". :)))

5 hours ago, Anna said:

That is why G. Jackson said anyone who has the Bible would be able to do so, and would be able to see if certain direction (from the GB) measured up, and would see if it was right or wrong direction. If we discern it’s wrong direction then we act on our own behalf, and not tell others what to do, because everyone else has a Bible too.

Do you recommending "silence"? Silently disagree with some official teachings and stay (or go out) without warning others about dangerous of such teachings? That is against principles WT Society use itself,  to warn people about some dangerous that you see it exist and can harm people. (Ezekiel book)

5 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

A woman on the news this morning was 117 years old and has seen it all.

Is she valid "witness"? ...of ALL things?? Can she explain clearly and with complete memory? How much witnesses of this sort we have, 2 or 3? 

After all, if they remembered ALL this relevant things as "signs of events", that is not proof how WT Society doctrinal explanations and interpretations are "the truth".  

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

So how does one 'question the GB' ?

It is more easier and with less repercussions if you question the Bible. But to question GB ... :))) 

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

So how will those 'ten men' know exactly who that 'Jew' is ? 

How will ordinary "rank and file" know who "anointed" is? By watching JWorg broadcasting? :))

13 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

the infamous “Revelation” book. 

Yesterday my wife reading this book .....and then go to week meeting ....??? I wonder why and want to comment on her reading, but i didn't.  

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

It was no longer man against man but technology against technology.

Yes, even WT Society giving picture how God will use extra advanced technology in his Judgmendal  Day. They speaking about antimatter weapon and similar things that are beyond human knowledge and technology. How GB know this? Perhaps looking too much SF movies and reading "worldly" books?

Is technology what made WW1 and WW2 as fulfilment of prophecy? Bible didn't made focus on technology and how human will use it. And not how technology will make possible or contribute for prophecy to come true. 

It is not about technology. It is about what human wish, want, feel.

11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It all depends upon where you look and what is most important to you.

I am reminded of that line from the 1968 book The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life: “True, there has been progress in a materialistic way. But is it really progress when men send rockets to the moon, and yet cannot live together in peace on earth?”

Some people think it is.

Do you suggest, with this quote, how people would live in more peace if technology (materialistic) progress did not happen?   

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Before 1914 there were no wars with flame-throwers, airplanes, large submarines (one-man subs yes in civil war),  abundance of machine guns, tanks,  chemical warfare,  and the list goes on.

When someone uses a stone instead of their hands, and instead of stone he uses a bronze sword and instead of a bronze sword he uses an iron sword .... this is the advancement of technology and causes wonder in the eyes of the beholder.

If Bible (and prophecies and events in the past) speaks in this manner, than all in this world are "unusual events" aka miracles from the very beginning and not only after 1914. (especially if individual see something for the first time)

By the way, first murder, first rape, first slavery ...etc.  were also unusual events when happened for the first time. And now these are everyday events for thousands of years already.

20 minutes ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Jehovah is the one acting as KING. You would expect Jehovah to stand down and watch His Son Rule if Jesus had been enthroned.

For in Him all things were created, thing in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. - Coll 1

 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen. - Romans 9 -

It seems how this individual here have been always in position to be over, above all thrones and rulers and authorities. According to this he has everything. 

4 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Now miraculously You Are Safe! Are you thankful to God? Or do you begin complaining about Moses leadership?

I believe how the order is always similar: First you thanks God, and Second blame the people. Almost always works this way

4 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Like the person leaving Egypt, we have witnessed many unusual events. 

That makes another problem. Do you by "unusual events" mean "miracles"? If yes, we both shall be disappointed. WT Society said, miracles stopped in 1 Century. 

4 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

1914 and the Good News. The International Bible Students began in all earnest effort to make the Kingdom known from 1919 until today. Like the person leaving Egypt, we have witnessed many unusual events. Jesus stated these would occur after he was enthroned as Jehovah's Appointed King.

"we have witnessed many unusual events"

Obviously you speaking about "signs": wars, famine, crimes .... But, all what was described not belong to "unusual events". Bible said how nothing new is happening under Earth. In that context, wars, famine, earthquakes, crimes .... can't be considered  as "unusual"  for humankind, these are not "miracles". But everyday process in life of people and Earth. Even "preaching" is not a miracle, but repeated history.

I would like to emphasize the contrast between the two things that WT separate when explaining items from Luke 12: 42 and 44.

1) give food allowance at the proper time (from 1919 to nowadays)

2) in charge of all his possessions (from some future point)

If we look again how WT Society explained what is meaning of subject 1) and what of subject 2) we see this:  

subject 1)

1. What is the primary ingredient in the food that Jehovah provides? ... the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.

1a. What role do our publications play in providing spiritual food? Through the publications, Jehovah’s servants are given an abundant supply of spiritual things to eat and drink. - https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/w20140815/receiving-food-at-proper-time/

subject 2) 

These “belongings” include the growing “great crowd” ... supervision of the material facilities...oversees spiritually upbuilding programs...supervision of the all-important work of preaching...and making “disciples ....

-----------------------------------

On subject 1): JW members already know how GB not writing enough material for daily production. Perhaps some or many of GB members writing nothing at all. Perhaps Helpers, or for sure, somebody else doing that work. This make question: What GB really doing in purpose, as goal, to prepare and provide "food"?  Bible versions already exist and there is no special need for NWT Translation. And publications? Does people really need so much articles that are repeated (with corrections of incorrect teachings, of course) but been put on new paper and new design? Bible itself, as perfect and inspired word of God should be sufficient, if we compare with err and uninspired magazines? 

About subject 2): We are able to see how this work looks much more hard and intensive to accomplish. It seems how this tasks are so important and more complicated to work. Is it really how GB has not any influence on this subject 2)?  Whose tasks are these now?  Is there a transition takeover period?

Is @Leander H. McNelly  another Phantom of the Opera who are created just for down-vote? :)))

20 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Frankly, I do not care if Russel did not understand 1914 or not.

You are right on this and many more what today's Russell-ites, Rutherford-ites and GB-ites boys and girls doing.... if you are not member of same group and have own life outside of all this.  

Otherwise , listen more what @James Thomas Rook Jr. have to said about it :))

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

I wouldn't think real estate would mean anything as it would have no value in the New World. 

And money would not mean anything either. 

Main issue is about present time. I would like if you like to comment this moment first  

GB as representatives of 144000 are, in this moment, individuals who benefit in using material assets that is in possession of WT Society. Perhaps there is some other members of 144000 who serving in some Bethel facilities and are in position to use  accomodation and some similar benefits of been in some particular service of that kind. 

Title looking for another perspective. Not about future, because in a future all of them (GB and rest of 144000) should be in Heaven. Of course, as i recall latest idea presented in publication, there is explanation how some or all of them, will survived Armageddon  and stay flesh and blood to teach and guide rest of JW's. In that case your questions are important.

But, i would like to hear your thoughts about present circumstances when GB declared how they had been appointed (in 1919) only for sharing food. Here is more details what include Jesus' "belongings on Earth". 

 These “belongings” include the growing “great crowd” of “other sheep.” - https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/w20090215/They-Keep-Following-the-Lamb/

 In addition to providing nourishing spiritual food “at the proper time,” “the faithful steward” would be appointed over the entire body of Christ’s attendants and assigned to manage all of Christ’s interests on earth, “all his belongings.” What would this entail?

8, 9. What “belongings” is the slave appointed to manage?

8 The slave’s responsibilities include the supervision of the material facilities used by Christ’s followers to carry out their Christian activities, such as the world headquarters and branch offices of Jehovah’s Witnesses, as well as their places of worship—Kingdom Halls and Assembly Halls—throughout the world. More important, the slave also oversees spiritually upbuilding programs of Bible study at weekly meetings and periodic assemblies and conventions. At these gatherings, information on the fulfillment of Bible prophecies is dispensed, and timely direction on how to apply Bible principles in daily life is given.

9 The steward’s responsibilities also include the supervision of the all-important work of preaching “this good news of the kingdom” and making “disciples of people of all the nations.” This involves teaching people to observe all the things that Christ, the Head of the congregation, commands to be done during this time of the end. (Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20; Revelation 12:17) The preaching and teaching work has produced “a great crowd” of loyal companions of the anointed remnant. These “desirable things of all the nations” are undoubtedly to be counted among the precious “belongings” of Christ administered by the faithful slave.—Revelation 7:9; Haggai 2:7. - https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/w20070401/Loyal-to-Christ-and-His-Faithful-Slave/

Because GB, after gave this "food in proper time" (is it proper time when they late cca 96 years?) aka information on the fulfillment of Bible prophecies is dispensed, and timely direction on how to apply Bible principles explained in 2015 WT study material, i would like to here what you think:

1) Did Jesus gave up of His authority and responsibility to take care about His belongings on Earth in 1919? 

2) If Jesus had choose to take away this privilege of managing His possession by hands of GB in 2015, did he choose someone else on Earth to do this job, and do we know who? Why Jesus decide to do this.... in fact is this His decision or decision made by GB? Is this sort of degradation on behalf of GB? Did Jesus found GB to be negligent in manage?

3) When Jesus was on Earth he had nothing against Juda to take care about material things aka money. He allowed him to take care. Why GB think this Bible verses to be prophetic and to apply on them, and later changed interpretation of particular  verses? 

4) Does Jesus managing his Earthly possession by own hands now? How we can "prove" answer?

....add your question :))

10 minutes ago, Witness said:

Perhaps it should be in this order:

 

1)  real estate and money ??

2)  members ??

 

...my failure, because of own feeling that people should be first, above  

32 minutes ago, Anna said:

So if 1914 was questioned, when were the FDS appointed? It would remove that whole aspect of what we have been taught, including the brothers being in prison. 

Don't worry about that. As they moved "appointment over all belongings" to the future, they can make same with "appointment for sharing spiritual food" in the future too. It would need some deep thinking how to manage this issue, but "believe me", it is possible. :)) And JW's will not feel the change. 

JW's not feels any change about "all belongings". The same Society still have all influence over "belongings". And we know what "belongings" includes. JW's aspect still stay the same. Only many of members now have to go to some other congregational meetings because of "merging". Are "mergings" product of new doctrine? Did GB give info on: Who are now in charge "over all belongings"? (good idea for new topic, it is made now) I think that was not explained in WT study articles, not even in a simple edition :)) 

 In view of the foregoing, what can we conclude? When Jesus comes for judgment during the great tribulation, he will find that the faithful slave has been loyally dispensing timely spiritual food to the domestics. Jesus will then delight in making the second appointment—over all his belongings. Those who make up the faithful slave will get this appointment when they receive their heavenly reward, becoming corulers with Christ. - https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/w20130715/who-is-faithful-discreet-slave/

“All his belongings” over which the “faithful and discreet slave” class is appointed must refer to all the spiritual things that belong to him on earth in connection with his established heavenly kingdom - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101973027 

1) members ??

2) real estate and money ??

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

But can you explain the last paragraph please.

Do you mean this?

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Russell had some "special" knowledge and some "special "faith". And that ended in past. His legal heirs wants to make all that as progress on a way to "ultimate knowledge and faith". 

"Special knowledge", in sense it was different than that of main Christendom (Catholic church) but also similar or sourced in other smaller religious groups. And "special faith", in sense he want to believe he found "new and better" or even as he had been chosen for "mission". I wasn't studied about this things as i should. @JW Insider handled with more materials (and have better memory than me :))) to bring out so much or enough quotes (WT publications) to support discussion, to give corrective perception on issues like this, and to introduce reader into unknown possibility, reality.

WT Society and today successors of religious inheritance (all doctrines and methodologies used to find "the truth") aka GB carry a sort of "burden" of that past. Perhaps they are somehow "forced" to stay on  such track, path of the past, don' know. If they are aware of fact  how past doctrines are not bringing to the future but contrary, holds them in ambys of past spiritual wrongs, because they are afraid of making clear and painful cuts, it is understandable, but also makes whole situation hopeless. It can be, based on experience we see till today, how easiest way to escape from spiritual "errors" they found in idea of "progressive understanding". According to this, Bible Truth never changed, but human (GB) understanding does. To this idea one thing also remain not understandable: what is Bible truth? Because no one is able to say - where we are now standing, on what point in this progress?! How much steps exists from point A to B in this progressive understanding? Because they made a claims how human living at close end of this system they assured themselves, as many time before, how this  "present truth" must be good enough and supported by God. With this attitude you are on a good way to be deceived and self deceived.

13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Interesting points, in that it made them witnesses of what they saw through the "eyes" of their faith. Faith is assured expectation of things not seen. They saw the resurrected Jesus, but he was in a different state, "materialized." In time, they all had faith that this was not a demon or just any angel materializing as Jesus, but Jesus himself, the one they had previously witnessed in person. Up to 500 persons saw him in this state. And through the outpouring of the holy spirit at Pentecost they realized what they were receiving, in faith, that this was what Jesus had promised after he would sit down at the right hand of the Father's heavenly throne. As a group, however, they witnessed this, too. Stephen had a vision of Jesus standing at God's right hand. (Makes no difference if you are sitting or standing when you are at the right hand of the throne of majesty.)

We raised issue on some other level. They witnessed to their faith and hope, and to some literal manifestations. But precisely said, they not witnessed in a way that we consider as word "witness" primatly means. It would be as someone today gave testimony as witness on Court about something, and he say to Judge: "I didn't saw what happened but I believe i know what happened because this was promised to me that will happen. And things that i saw are exactly that."   

Religious people today depending on testimonies made by people in the past who not witnessed to some events, to some they did. Also, people today put trust on people who wrote about this things and also to translators. And finally, people put their trust on spiritual mediators aka church leaders, who are strong force that drive faith and hope of people in particular direction. 

12 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Therefore, it doesn’t need to be repeated by Christ. It doesn’t matter if people in his day were witnesses to a supernatural event. No one in this lifetime is a witness to that event.

People in Jesus' days was under promise and expectations that day will SEE supernatural events as Proof how individual who doing this is Send By God. I think how WT Society take this position in their explanations. So, miracles are of important things that surrounding life and faith of people in Israel from the very beginning. Without miracles, many of events described in Bible, would never happened and history will be different and present will be different. No matter did such miracles really happened or not. Christian faith, before and today, would be in some other format without miracles. Christians in 1 century was totally in miracles of all kind. Today, things are different. 

12 hours ago, César Chávez said:

It is by faith that we accept those events to be true, just like faith gave a person insight to understand the end of the gentile times in 1914 way before the event of WW1 happened.

faith gave a person insight to understand the end of the gentile times in 1914 way before the event of WW1 happened.

If i understand what i read before about this correctly, faith he had (Russell) gave him wrong insight and understanding. Other people' faiths, around Russell, also accepted same things that made them to be in wrong expectations too.

It seems how "faith" (own or other' people) is not trustful. It is not what makes things come true. Faith of man, who is blind, who believe he will see, not makes him cured of blindness because of mere faith. Someone who has power to do miracle, have to cure him from blindness. Than, this man' faith have value and justification. Otherwise is superstition, empty hope. Faith (to believe something) not need knowledge. Because knowledge would say, miracles are not possible. Do we have some "special" knowledge? WT Society teaches how 1 century miracles are not possible today. 

Russell had some "special" knowledge and some "special "faith". And that ended in past. His legal heirs wants to make all that as progress on a way to "ultimate knowledge and faith".  

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

we are witnesses of these matters, and so is the holy spirit,

In Act 5 we see how apostles were busy with Jesus' teaching and because of that they fall under persecution. As a tool for defending themselves they said:

²⁹ Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings! ³⁰ The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. ³¹ God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins. ³² We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

They claim how they witnessed of these two things:

1) Jesus raised from dead

2) Jesus was exalted to God' own right hand

Peter and apostles claimed how they are witnesses of this two things. No one of them saw by own eyes Jesus' resurrection. And two of apostles didn't recognize resurrected Jesus when he appeared to them ("they were kept from recognizing him" - verse said, Luke 24).....   When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 

After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God - Mark 16

He began to be parted from them, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.” - Act 1:9

As we see from this Bible verse, cloud made impossible for apostles to see how he sat down.

Important questions are: What sort of witnesses were apostles? To what events they witnessed? 

They saw resurrected Jesus but not recognized him and they didn't saw nothing what was happened in the Heaven about his sitting down. Now, we have their claim how holy spirit is also witness to this two events. And they call for HS, in front their persecutors, as some sort of undeniable proof to their claims. Perhaps they expected how persecutors will be afraid to go against HS and stop to persecuted them. But that didn't happened. 

I see here these subject: Apostles calling for HS because they personally didn't saw nothing of spoken claims. But it seems how they want to tell us, how individuals who received (will receive in a close of far future) HS will be in position to see invisible things. But to receive HS you have to Obey. Apostles send message to persecutors how then are not Obeying HS and as result they can't receive HS and as next result they can't see or to be witnesses of this two events.  

Did apostles received HS to see invisible things? How it came about that HS didn't open their eyes to recognize Jesus at first sight? They didn't been inspired at that moment? But after they were? It seems how these Bible verses talking about importance to be under influence of HS, or to be inspired, as precondition to be able to see, and understand, what is going on.

Now we came again to one of crucial questions. Is it possible to be inspired by HS and as such, in that condition of mind, hearth, spirituality, to be Witness for things not heard and not seen in literal sense? Because only if we are inspired we See things, invisible. Not only invisible because they are in some other place and time in Universum. But also to see invisible things here on Earth, in the Bible, in WT Society, JW congregation and in society as whole? 

To what things JW's witnessing today? And what sort of witnesses they are? Are they merely witnesses of their own faith, beliefs? Are they witnesses to "signs"? But as was already said and as it is written in the Bible looking or searching for "signs" are not what Jesus recommended. 

Of what importance then is, to be witness of 1914 events? or other events in WT history and her life as Mother Organization? 

Perhaps GB act is in a manner as playing roulette. Each time they are sure how this time they will win. 

With other people's money. With other people's faith and hope.

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The old days (1940's-1960's) had a "Circuit Servant" setting quotas for the congregation and then chiding the congregation for not meeting them. This was a sad state of affairs

I believe how some sort of quotas and normative about hours still exists. Average system. 15 minutes of preaching for old people, active, inactive, (3 or) 6 month periods ...etc.

GB and Helpers speaking about "theocratic carrier" as opposite to "university education" that only worth for "worldly carrier" and "own pleasures" and " self-fulfillment that not helps other people" - and that is very, very wrong as they explained. Because after Armageddon, we will not need doctors and  lawyers. Now, this moment, as Morris III says, we need many skillful workers, plumbers, bricklayers, carpenters .... This means, tomorrow (and partially they are today)  all this hand skills will be over brain skills, because building program will be of main concern after Armageddon.

Perhaps, @Anna ,  teachings and instructions, as mentioned above, are "fraudulent". Does this makes Organization or some people in it "fraudulent" is on observer to say.

With this in mind we can also comment 1914 and all knowledge, teachings, instructions, beliefs and hopes around that period of time. 

51 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

According, the lifespans reported on in the Bible steadily decrease—from around 900 (Genesis 5) to around 4-500 (Genesis 11) to Abraham’s time of 150-170, to the psalmist’s time of 70-80, to the 30 of the Middle Ages—at which point better sanitary and some scientific advance begins to kick in to bring it back to the present 70-90. 

Is it possible to assume how life span from Adam to nowadays are not falling in some mathematical order or in order to be shut down in full at some moment .... like Tom's fan ? 

What this huge difference in years of life span in various time periods says, explains? We would expect how life span, now (because of global end aka Armageddon), would be miserably law, to the point that babies dies at birth. But that not happens. Obviously, something else we need, and not fan, as more understandable explanation why psalmist speaking about 70-80 years as sort of proper normative for measuring that amount of years in human life as some normal length. Would be any difference if life span is 455 years and then go to dust?

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have to wash up and strip down.

I would suggest ...... first to strip down and then take a shower :))

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The fan goes dead the instant you pull the plug.

That doesn’t mean the blades seize up. They may spin for awhile. But the fan is dead.

You helped me a lot to understand. Thanks :)))

... how many days or years dead fan spins, in your example?