Srecko Sostar

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What is context, why WT Society count members? Does secular authority need such informations? Does WT Society preparing for war? Does WT Society calculates how much money can each member bring into organization? Or how much calendars have to print? Or how much money they will send as a gift to each member?

I forget. Apologize. Old Testament is just shadow of new  things that will  come and replace Old Law :)) 

Old Testament : Don't count!

New Testament: Count! 

One ordinary day in a Paradise.

Eve said: "Adam, what shall we do today? If you have plan go fishing, don't stay whole day by the river". I have new recipe, and will prepare fine supper, but you have to come before day ends. Just watch at the sun and when sun come two ell measure above the top of the red tree, that is moment when you have quickly walk back for meal. 

Death was punishment for Adam sin. I don't recall what verse said Adam and Eve will live this or that number of years before they die. Verse that say: “in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die"  not giving specific number of how long human will live. "Day". This is something that is under interpretations. No one know for sure of what day JHVH thought about. And what Moses thought when wrote word "day" or whatever that word had been. And what did translators understand later, word "day" is. WT Society interpreting day as 1000  years. But that is not only calculation that word "day" have. Genesis context also speaking about "day", seven of them. And no one of bible scholars today in WT Society don't say how such day is 1000 years long. Adam lived in Genesis context, not in some other Bible book context when one day is one year or other similar and not similar parable, prophetic day - year etc.

3 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

Exodus 30:11-16

purpose is:  pay money and you will be spared

3 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

Numbers 1:1-3

purpose is: to serve in the army

3 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

Numbers 26:1-4

purpose is: to serve in the army

3 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

(2 Sam. 24:1-10

purpose is: the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah."

What is context, why WT Society count members? Does secular authority need such informations? Does WT Society preparing for war? Does WT Society calculates how much money can each member bring into organization? Or how much calendars have to print? Or how much money they will send as a gift to each member?

3 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

So you can't just "cherry-pick" isolated passages from the Bible and "shoehorn" them into a wrong context

Who can tell it is wrong or right context ?

11 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

After all, everyone claims to be part of Jesus' flock but Jesus clearly indicated that most who claim to serve him would not actually be approved. And how can you expect to "gather together in my name" with them if you don't even know who they are?

 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. - John 10

Yes, here exist a risk how sheep imagine how he/she is a Jesus' sheep, but in fact belongs to some other flock. 

Perhaps "to  gather" in spiritual context? Not necessary to be counted, numbered while be on meeting or convention. You already know how God hate that "his people" to be counted. We have Bible precedents on that. Perhaps WT Society should to stop count how many JW's are worldwide. :))

While doing that WT leaders shows attitude how They Know who belong to Jesus' flock. Do they know? Do you know?

12 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

especially about the 10 years... 

......with all due respect,

i really

don't know what are you talking about :))

2 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

We don't have any clear examples of how you shouldn't drive a car recklessly over the speed limit either, do we? But we do, as has already been stated, have laws, principles... But you already know that, right?

Sorry, your illustration with car driving is funny. Go, please, on YT and you will learn a lot how not to drive.  Auto-school is place for first lessons. .....if you didn't know before :))

2 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

Let's turn that around for a change and give you a chance to explain which flock and congregation YOU think Jesus is head over and how he directs said individuals.

I suppose how his flock is made of people who put faith in him and listen to his voice and how he directs them by his spirit (for example, when two or three gathered in my name i am with them). 

We don't need to turn around nothing. Few words is enough, don't you agree? 

10 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

workbook for the week of November 18-24: "In Jesus' right hand: The stars are under Jesus' full control, power and direction. If someone on a body of elders needs correction, Jesus will see to it that this is done in his own time and way."

1) The stars are under Jesus' full control, power and direction.

2)  If someone on a body of elders needs correction, Jesus will see to it that this is done in his own time and way."

Deceiving and in manipulate form. In first sentence writer showing idea how Jesus will fix all things and give justice and proper help to people who are hurt by elders. In second sentence comes new message: Do not have hope how Jesus will do it because of you (or in your lifetime). You are not of His primary interest, you are just sheep. Bigger picture is more important than you as individuum. 

10 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

Because too many things happen within the organization (even the early Christian congregation), that are clearly not "controlled" by Jesus -

The idea of "spirit guided organization" is also a trick??

10 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

"By heeding his words to each of the seven congregations, present-day elders see how they can handle similar situations."

We don't have any clear Bible example from 1 century or earlier how elders today should or need to handle CSA. Perhaps we can find some other modern problem too,that is not pictured in Bible.

10 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

So Jesus and Jehovah give us laws, principles and boundaries. But they don't remote control our/elders' decisions by means of holy spirit.

In spirit of this words i would give serious question about JW doctrine how elders are appointed by holy spirit. Here you said how elders are people who need to be in spirit and recommendations and guidelines of laws, principles and boundaries. Again, very stretchy and with strong human influence on things. It seems to me, how JW members have to decide in own mind, do they want to continue with idea of God's appointments or human appointments of  church servants.

10 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

As for your statement: "If Jesus doesn't want to control human behaviour and decisions...why do you think elders have that right?" Answer: They don't have that right. Elders don't have the right to make people's decisions for them.

We misunderstand each other. I gave point on subject; Do Jesus have interest to be First and Last in decisions that are about His Flock and Congregation,  or He leave that to elders. In fact i ask, WHO RUN church? Jesus or WT Society with elders?  

You gave answer down:

11 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

My description of the factors that come into play regarding that interplay, attempted to explain the discrepancies that clearly exist if you are not living in a "snow globe."

"snow globe" in general beliefs of JW's

10 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

movie "The Sound of Music".

excellent  movie

20 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is more than “possible.” He is definitely a dodo.

I am not talking about "dodos" ... and you know that very well. :))) You showed little attempt to redirect my words. This is something what i wouldn't expect from you :))

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

John 3:8

The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

Hmmm, i would understand how person who are  born of Spirit KNOW exactly who he/she is and where he/she is going.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is more a matter of the heart than the head

If so, then WT multiplication of all sort of knowledge is so "dodo". :))

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

9 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Anointed Christians back then were inspired of God, hence they wrote Bible books that we have now. 

They didn’t know that at the time, you dodo. It is only after the fact that their letters were collected and included in the Bible canon.

This is possible what you said Tom. To be inspired but not have awareness of that. Of course, we can make some more thoughts on that too.

But i wish to ask: if Inspired individual is not aware of own state of inspiration, how individuals who are not inspired by God can made, make claims about God's manifest of inspiration in other persons? Have in mind that devil can make inspirational miracles too. 

How you who are not inspired by God recognize that someone else is inspired by God? We are not speaking about "miracles" as walking on water and feeding 5000 people with few fish, but about doctrines.

After uninspired men have collected some letters from dust and caves, their eyes were "opened" to see how what they have in hands are "inspired" by God????? Amazing! Or do you suggesting how Pope and other bishops were "inspired", while choosing letters, but also not been aware how God inspired them for this task?

9 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

Was Jesus saying he "controlled" all behaviour and decisions in the congregation? Or was it that the elders were responsible to use the authority granted to them in harmony with his direction and God's Word?

On first question answer would be: Behaviour and decisions are human freedom, and Jesus not need to "control" this aspect. But Congregation is His Work, He made Congregation, and i guess He has interest that this body to be as much as possible without blame. 

On second question answer would be: Elders want to be elders by own will, no one force them to be on that position, i guess. Did Jesus choose them or GB? What ever be the case, both of this group claims how Jesus is their Lord. 

About "control". Elders working as "controllers", because they try to correct and dfd all individuals who not behave in harmony to rules. Well, i see a little contradiction about your claim how Jesus not want to "control" behaviour and decision of people in the congregation. If Jesus as Master and Lord not want to control human behaviour and decisions, as you said, why you think that elders have that right?

In continue question comes: Why you think that Jesus have no interest to "control" those who "controlling" sheeps in HIS Flock?  

Maybe we can go to use other words instead word "control"?

53 minutes ago, b4ucuhear said:

It is one thing to have "doubts" and not be fully convinced about certain things - even disagree, but another try to "draw disciples away after themselves" - or basically start your own religion based on your own personal thoughts.

Does this means how GB and elders have no doubts today, and never did. And was/are in agreement (fully convinced) in all false teachings from past to today and to tomorrow, and how such false and error teachings still deserved to be called "Past Truth", "Old Light", "Temporary Truth", "Present Truth" and similar ????.  :))))

55 minutes ago, b4ucuhear said:

But others, based on the many changes that have been made, (changes that are often in line with their thinking all along) are willing to take a wait and see attitude, with the faith that if it's that important, Jesus can ensure changes are made at a rate we can handle or understand.

So, many are willing to wait and keep on preaching errors in various modes as individuals who have; doubts, are not fully convinced, are in disagreement or are in full agreement?

55 minutes ago, b4ucuhear said:

(And NO, I don't believe that "Jesus controls everything that goes on in the congregation." I believe the other explanation given, that he grants authority and we are accountable as to how we use that authority based on God's Word. 

It is possible, but then what about verses who speaking about Jesus as Shepherd of his congregations, Master, Lord who have stars aka elders in his hand. ?? And how He is the One who sets and removes elders from position?? This sounds to me how He should be in control. :))

1 hour ago, b4ucuhear said:

The Patriarchs, Jews, early Christians and JW's today have always had to revise their understanding/expectation of certain things they had assumed/believed to be true as more information was forthcoming. Some see that as a bad thing - being "wrong" about certain beliefs or expectations, while I see it as a positive/progressive trait - which is what one would expect from truth "seekers." The fact that JW's have made  changes and continue to do so shows they are humble enough to admit their mistakes and correct matters.

To be wrong in understanding, in expectations and beliefs, is normal human business. To revise things we see as wrong is also normal and beneficial.

What is NOT normal is when leaders, in this endless process of revision, condemn and exclude all those who disagree. Church leaders and elders proclaims all such individuals as spiritually weak, unfaithful, apostates, usurpers ..etc. And all other rank and file members join to them in this judging and shunning. And for what? For things described as ""positive and progressive trait" of "wrongs". 

Until today, all this JW's elders who are long enough in organization, should learned till now how they judging people on basis of unstable truths and knowledges which continue to change. In that respect, elders are NOT humble and not admitting their mistakes and they not correcting matters - because all those who are dfd and shunned because of doctrinal issues needed to have a different treatment, and should be rehabilitated, amnestied . Treatment that would show how JW "truth and knowledge" is in process of revisions and changes .... to some future confirmation. And how "open minded" elders see and understand this reality. 

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

. I have arthritis in my hands and I am battling to highlight sentences on the pad.

I hope you will find some help and be better.

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

A miracle is always something which is unexplained and often seems like serendipity or coincidence. ....

I have seen something further under the sun, that the swift do not always win the race, nor do the mighty win the battle,+ nor do the wise always have the food, nor do the intelligent always have the riches,+ nor do those with knowledge always have success,+ because time and unexpected events*  (unforeseen occurrence) overtake them all.

It seems how Bible writer here, spoke about: Coincidence or about Miracle. Or maybe he didn't know how some "unexpected events" were in fact "miracles". :)) But if we seriously accept how his words are inspired and unmistakable, than he say how "miracles" (as intervention made by God) not likely to happen, not exist.  

Then I said in my heart: “What happens to the stupid one will also happen to me.”+ What, then, did I gain by becoming excessively wise? So I said in my heart: “This too is futility.”

This is very significant thought. It is not  just about how fool and wise will die one day. It is about how wise man also can find himself to have foolish wisdom. Let me to translate that in this way: WT Society wisdom is found to be foolish many times. Many topics on these forum revealed this matter.

9 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If so, Srecko has dodged many a question in declining to do it.

 

What Translation of Bible you prefer? :))) Choose one and please read all what including His teachings. After that, You will have no need for my answers.

6 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You have only yourself to blame. I have commented many times more than that—each one is a masterpiece.

What do you suggest that should be?

Few fundamental things which Jesus thought.

19 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

To pretend that JWs door to door witnessing is doing God's will. well I'm sure you know it isn't.  

You made excellent point... question is not should we preach, but what to preach. 

20 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Well, we see no more rising from death, gifts like healing of people -  so yes, I agree with our doctrine that these miracles were signs which assisted the first century congregation to be established and for people to put faith in christ. 

Hebrews 2:3  how will we escape if we have neglected so great a salvation? For it began to be spoken through our Lord and was verified for us by those who heard him,  4 while God joined in bearing witness with signs and wonders and various powerful works and with the holy spirit distributed according to his will

But to say that jehovah does not fulfill his prophecies is a lie.   I specifically used a modern day prophecy about the world-wide preaching work which came about after the brothers were set free and the slave came to be. Matt 24:14 & 45

Thanks for respond. But from this comment i see how you softened previous personal belief. :)) and only miracle that stayed as miracle is preaching.

20 minutes ago, Arauna said:

1 cor 5: 5

Dealing With a Case of Incest

Expel the wicked person from among you.

... not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

Expel the wicked person from among you.

How many JW's you personally know, who did or doing this and you decide not to greet them?