Srecko Sostar

57 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Only because you have made it so in an attempt to muddy the waters

No Tom. Water is already muddy. And not because of you or me.

59 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Since those old-time practices you mention are obviously not relevant today, that is why I did not include them.

We made them irrelevant. Don't we?

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

How do you feel about the ones that are relevant today?

Some of them ( practices) seems acceptable, to general public. And for people in one part of world. In other part of world and their society different practice is acceptable to them. 

We can conclude how different and sometimes opposite practices are relevant today too, as were in the past.   

Me personally, accept practice when we making effort to not hurt each other. At least not too strong, too hard :))))

17 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What would you say about those items, then—those teachings referred to—trinity, immortal soul, kingdom is in your heart, all good people go to heaven, etc. ?

Is there any longer for you any concept of some beliefs being biblical and some not?

Look. Biblical beliefs is broad term.

For example, polygamy as social system in old Israel, set by Moses (or by God, choose by yourself) inside Law paragraphs is very biblical. Polygamy in Israel was legitimate and legal way of living. So, polygamy is biblical teaching. At least for people who lived in those times.

Slavery, Compensation for the Bride, Arranged Marriages, Concubins, Under age girls and woman got as War price ..., all this once was very biblical and worth to follow as way of living and blessed by JHVH, according to Bible.

Concept of some beliefs .... is that really matters to go in explanation what is my concept?! :))) Until now i see how all sorts of Concepts failed.

13 hours ago, Witness said:

I have explained the assumed role of the elders over and over on this forum..  They are a counterfeit priesthood, the “man of lawlessness”; which I mentioned in my opening post. 

Elders as "counterfeit priesthood" and "man of lawlessness".

I would explain this to myself in this way: Elders in JW congregations as individuals are not "bad" people itself. Many of them have loving concern and are self sacrifice in helping others. I am sure how no one want (@Witness too) to discredit this aspect and quality of such individuals. 

But this qualities is not what is problematic and it is not in focus. Legitimate is to ask: Are they "appointed" to this service by God or by Human?! Are they supporting and promoting Jesus' teachings and instructions or those made by GB and WT Corporation?! 

9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The WT has long identified the “man of lawlessness” as the clergy of Christendom, not primarily for its conduct, but for its teachings—trinity, immortal soul, kingdom is in your heart, all good people go to heaven, etc.

That explanation can be very good trap.

Dangers is outside and we are inside, so we are safe.

:))))

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

But the bible says we must not greet or eat with those who have  rejected Jehovahs ways. 

This is not said precisely enough. Whole world (minus 8 millions JW) rejecting JHVH ways. And showing that openly.

In a place you living people doing this too (rejecting JHVH ways). 

Please how you deal with them, on daily basis? Not greeting them? 

If you greet them you join yourself with their sins. :))

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

Jesus was hung on a stake next to a robber .

Did he greet him?

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

The example I mentioned was when brothers received a 6 year prison sentence and then suddenly were set free - very unexpectedly when they thought all was lost.

 You may not regard it as evidence but I do. 

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

However,  I have seen Jehovahs assistance and mercy in my own life and therefore believe it is possible

We have at least two sort of perception here.

Arauna you said how you believe, "miracle" is possible. I agree that you and I or somebody else can explain some events in our or elses life as God's intervention. No one can make proof or contra proof for that.

But you forget another important thing. WT Society and JW organization have official doctrine that is opposite of your beliefs in this. True, WT magazines from time to time brings experiences that border with "miracles" or are "miracles", because it is not explainable from human reality, how and why, but it was said how that have to be from God.

WT and JW Organization teaching clearly say how, "miracles" stopped in 1 century. By "miracles", they mean supernatural, divine intervention by JHVH. Interventions and acts of every kind. Among other things, is also how JHVH protecting his people. 

If you try to explain to your brothers or elders how your specific experience is definitely, for sure, intervention made by God and to assure them how what happened is exactly what you believe - God's miracle in your life ..... let us inform about their respond. :))

28 minutes ago, Arauna said:

; t was quite common to be robbed on the road..... hopefully only foreigners did this and not fellow Israelites.

Arauna, i am sorry but i have to react. You suggesting here, how robbers in this illustration are not Jews, but that is not visible in story. What IS visible in story is fact, how "pure, highly spiritual Jews" (Priest and Levite) not wanted to help but Samaritan did.

20 minutes ago, Arauna said:

When Jehovah allowed things it was not the ideal but he allowed it because - as Jesus said - they were hard-hearted.  Most probable hard to deal with too because their inclination was not kind, or loving. What does your church say about it?  Do they have an opinion?

I am not church member. I gave my opinion and thoughts and questions. You said: When Jehovah allowed things it was not the ideal but he allowed it because - as Jesus said - they were hard-hearted. 

Why you think, how JHVH dealing with human in this way, by allow, is not ideal?? JHVH is perfect and if he decide "to allow" things, than that IS ideal. You need more faith :)))

As i can understand so far, JHVH "allowed" (perhaps exist some Bible verse who said this. It will be fine to find Bible verse who give clear God's intention and standpoint on this idea.

Next, we have Jesus words who specifically say how Moses, and NOT JHVH, gave permission about it.

Idea how JHVH "allowed" polygamy is just human idea and theological explanation.

Fact that Jesus confirmed is clear: Moses gave them permission to have more than one wife. Jesus never said; JHVH gave permission. 

Also, Jesus gave answer on question: "Why Moses allowed that?". But Jesus not gave answer on: "Why JHVH not stopped this immoral law to be part of His Law and to stand as equal among His righteous and supreme, Divine words and laws?" 

I would say this way. The year 607 is real year. The year 1914 is real year. But it seems that only thing that connecting this two subjects is, numbers. They ARE numbers. And for people who lived in those times, these years meant something. To us today, meaning lies in .... discussion only. 

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

Jehovah allowed it in Mosaic law

I made question on this. Please to repeat it once again. Who made and gave law on polygamy in Israel? JHVH or Moses? It would be nice to hear clear and unambiguous answer.

If JHVH, than it is needles and excessive to talking about permission.

allow = to give permission for someone to do something, or to not prevent something from happening:

If Moses get this regulation from his own head, than we can start asking about other problems. Was Moses INSPIRED by God when wrote this and other paragraphs? .......etc.

When JW people answer with: "JHVH allowed" ....this or that in Moses Law, such answer is not answer but just comment that say nothing valid. JHVH allowed many things, good and bad. Not only things connected with Moses Law, old Israel, First Congregation or today's JW, but also with all other things in life of all people who lived and living now in the World. To just say: "He ALLOWED" is meaningless. And can give both, wrong and/or correct, perception about interaction between God and Human and relation that coming from some sort of inactivity, lack of interest from God but also from human. Perhaps various aspects of "atheism" or non-religiosity coming from human can be also be explained by wording "allowed". Human "allowed" that things happen (People allow things to happen).

12 minutes ago, Arauna said:

When the pharisees challenged Jesus on the divorce certificates,  Jesus replied that Jehovah made only one wife for Adam and intended it to last forever but said that " due to your hard heartedness, 'Moses' allowed this practice. Matthew 19. This is key - under moses they still were allowed more than one wife but this will soon cha ge. Israel had to be made ready for the next set of principles taught by Jesus - not laws- which liberated them as individuals.

Remember that the law wers only a "tutor" until christ. Teaching israel right from wrong....... something which other nations did not have. 

We can go with try to understand context. That is ok. 

In Moses period, did he go against God Order in Eden? One woman one man. Because, according verses it look like he, Moses gave law on that issue and not God?!  Jesus replied that Jehovah made only one wife for Adam and intended it to last forever but said that " due to your hard heartedness, 'Moses' allowed this practice.

Well, this Bible history record making big question? What laws are given by God and what by Moses??!!  

13 minutes ago, Arauna said:

David had to show courage similar to Samson who also harassed the oppressive philistines.

Yes, but still ..... Does this act shows more? It seems how David was not satisfied just to kill enemies of him and his nation, but he had need to cut private parts of killed people? Or you suggest how such act was just common and normal, not only in historical context, but normal for God's Chosen

If yes, than such practices not contribute to "separated" them as Holy Nation, but to be part of "worldly" spirit. In further talking about this, perhaps God have, had plan to make few various period of changes for his "nation" and in every time frame doing something to mold his people in specific way but according to worldly, secular circumstances?  This can work too. Because people are not "inspired" to do good and teach good and truth, but to live according to general situation :))   

2 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I remind you again that you should patch up your understanding of ancient history and how people lived in those days.

As i understand JHVH, in JW Organization and WT Society context, this god is very interested that His people not to live as people around them. Does this includes only OUR time? Because, customs of old Jew are in many ways similar with customs of nations who not worshiped JHVH. 

Well, does this mean how such customs are not so bad, because Jew and non-Jew practiced them?  

What practices today is available to JW's that are same or similar to non-JW's, and JHVH not consider them as bad or as "spirit of this world"?  

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

You can respect a woman for her godly acts of conduct.  But I do not think you will appreciate it when a woman tries to rule over you.  

There have been cases where they have been removed..... so yes, no-one is above Jehovahs laws.

The difference is: the modern slave gives food to the fellow workers as predicted for the last days.. 

1) if woman boss is in capacity to be boss and organized things in respectful way to her coworkers who are under her boss position, than this is not ruling over me or males or any other in firm. In other circumstances we are equal as human.

2) internal matters

3) this need more research, because slave is slave in old time and in modern time.Their roles and jobs not changed with time passing, i guess. Only means of labor, how they doing some slave job, perhaps changed..... and maybe some slaves today are members of Labor, Workers Union :))).    

37 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Do you really think that every woman has a jar of poison just lying around, held in reserve in case any unpleasant characters come calling?

... but every woman (modern, in keeping with the time woman) need always to have a heavy hammer and a mortise chisel on hand in a kitchen :))))))

37 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Even the fellow who cut up his concubine into twelve parts and delivered her to the tribes to make a point, I recall from some secular source I came across, (not in WT publications) was not unheard of, maybe not even unusual, for the times.

....yes, he is special case too .... and the simplest and most neutral way is, perhaps, to say: "Who will understand god's ways?" :))

28 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The picture below speaks to a fundamental problem with women in the minds of many men.

You really need to have stomach for killing someone this way. Forensic psychology experts possibly could be able to explain why woman murderer/killer used  this way..... and not to poison him, for example. 

Is this is how God told her to fulfill His will....? or she find this as unique way how to be remembered and take the "glory" from other people in her tribe?

On 12/17/2019 at 7:27 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

Child sexual abuse is the premiere export of the planet, No group is unaffected.

Then, it would be correct to notice how JW organization is not enough separated themself from this old world wicked system. Because evil thing founded its way how to spread spirit of this world into congregations and to win over spirit of Organization (whatever name to spirit you would give to be behind Organization) . 

So much about self praise WT Society making as the only true organization (religion) that is not "dirty" as rest of the world. For sure, JW's want to be as much is possible approved by God. But this individual intention not making Organization to be "clean".... or to be the cleanest organization in the world.

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

You want to rule and teach right now do you?   A woman?

Bible speaks about stones who witnessing and children who gives a praise. What is strange if some women doing what some men don't? 

You doing the same here. Would we ( who are males) have to reject and make funny of your thoughts and words just because you are woman?

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

Throughout the 2 millenia there have been anointed but it is only in connection with the "presence"  in last days that a slave is mentioned. 

WT publications said that same idea. And your explanation is based on that. .... But articles explained how NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE who are and who are not anointed. Based on this clam from WT and such information, it is good to be careful about GB too. :))

What is work of anointed and what is work of slave? What is difference? What their service to God and to people making to be different in the past and today (1st century ...... 2000 years later)?

Seems to me how the only Prince who lived in that house was Rutherford.....and servants.

3 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

The Hebrew words Beth Sarim mean "House of the Princes"; and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was that there might be some tangible proof that there are those on earth today who fully believe God and Christ Jesus and in His kingdom, and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth. The title to Beth-Sarim is vested in the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society in trust, to be used by the president of the Society and his assistants for the present, and thereafter to be forever at the disposal of the aforementioned princes on earth. . . . while the unbelievers have mocked concerning it and spoken contemptuously of it, yet it stands there as a testimony to Jehovah's name; and if and when the princes do return and some of them occupy the property, such will be a confirmation of the faith and hope that induced the building of Beth-Sarim." Salvation (1939) p.311

Proof of vain, futile faith.

Also, Rutherford believed differently than JW's now. King and Priests not need to be in the Heaven to be Kingdom's rulers over, above the Earth, in the Sky. But here on land of California. 

Present use is for President and assistants. Of course, he need that because of health issue. Some other ill bro/sis have to wait for future blessings with hope. And thereafter to be forever at disposal of ..... 

It stands as testimony......of good money investments. Confirmation of faith and hope will be no more because they sold building.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

There you go. You just answered a fundamental debate question, JW's don't have a need to speak or interact with unrepentant fellowships. I hope every other ex-witness here will take control of what you have said, and stop the nonsense of phrasing the word "shun" to mean something that ex-witnesses themselves do. Thank you for your honesty.

There is a difference between "obligation" and "mercy" Jesus words encourage mercy to those that REPENT!

Debate question is in topic. Part of my comment is not answer on topic issue: "disfellowshipped for leaving violent partners". 

Interactions, you mentioned, is something i comment from one of angles we can use to make conversation between us who participate. We have at least three groups of people who are involved in debate here. This is what we can call as "social interaction". We standing on different positions, but we have "interaction". Normal human changing of thoughts, opinions and standpoints. We all here are proof how WT Society "obligation" that is need for JW members to obey is of no significance, meaning and purpose ... here, on this web site. 

In that context, i would like to understand your position. Do you showing your "mercy" to us, while interacting with all of us here? Or do you feel sort of "obligation" to interacting with us?

I don't see why would "mercy or obligation" have to be impetus and motive, for me or anyone else here, to go in  interaction  with people on this web site !? 

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

What appropriate steps did those Elders take if the ex-husband had joint, shared or split custody. Even with full or sole custody that would allow for visitations and some kind of parental interaction? Spousal abuse is one thing, Child abuse is another. Was that what happened to have been denied such interaction?

Good points. Interactions. That remind me on rule that JW like to have as practice when ex-JW is in question. 

Violent husband who beat his wife has all right to be father and teacher to his children, on one hand. This we call parent-child  interaction. Perhaps he show love and tender to children, but we can go to question this, because he beating mother of those children he love so much. Well, he don't love mother to measure he beating her, but love children he have with beating wife ?! Upside-down world. What he will give to children in interaction moment? How he will explain this two side love?  

JW love all people except ex-JW. Interactions. Upside-down world.

Love can stop at any moment.

Husband not need to love her wife if he has such feeling, but beating is not proper interaction.

JW are not obligated to love ex-JW, but does this give any right to them to stop having human interaction.

Do not misunderstand me. I have no need, any need to speak with my JW family or ex congregants and other JW. I just show how many things in life are upside down. Even my interactions. :)) 

12 hours ago, JW Insider said:

She went to my father (an elder) who gave her the usual counsel about more study, more prayer, more field service.

I believe how this is quite "normal and spiritual" advice, almost for every problem, until our days. :))

12 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This was around 1978, when most elders had little experience, and there was a lot of patriarchal dominance in some of the midwest congregations like this one.

Male - female issue. Domination issue. Theocratic order issue.

In this what was said and what life give us to see, it is notable to understand how problems that are common to worldly society are visible as similar or same problem in spiritual society aka JW organization. Men want to be boss and women have to obey them. That is not issue itself, because every group give power to one person who making decisions. If wife decide to give this to husband than it is willingly. But if wife see things in other way, husband is not entitled to break her will with force, of any kind. 

Well, does Jesus' teachings giving all authority and power to husband for beating his wife and/or children?

If answer is NO, we can make sort of excuse or explanation with everything we want, but there is NO EXCUSE.

No matter of what period of time we speaking about and try to understand how looked practice of elders in specific part of the world in specific circumstances and moment,  WT Society is/was not acting under principles that giving love, justice and comfort to victims. Primarily (in cases like this or about CSA) they care about  look and about status that look have to bring in own eyes or eyes of people. This is not good.

This bad examples (past and nowadays) giving evidence, proof how they have problems in communication with holy spirit ....or Jesus' teachings.  

8 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

New shelter for women

It would be ok if WT Society, as Charitable Organization, build or buy some places for shelters of this kind. For JW's female members. In such case things would stay "in a family" and needed person would receive some help.

Don't get this serious! That could be devastating. Because "little dark secrets" would be/stay under internal control. 

35 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I guess you did not read Isaiah 66:1

The highest heavens belong to the Lord,
    but the earth he has given to mankind. - Psalms 115 16

 As for the heavens, they belong to Jehovah, But the earth he has given to the sons of men. -NWT

14 hours ago, Witness said:

Would Jesus, who is Truth, allow his servants to spread falsehoods worldwide, especially when he promised the Helper would tell them “all things”? 

Wait a moment. Jesus gave specific name for holy spirit - Helper, with specific Task.  But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you.  -John 14, NWT

Is this "coincidence or for purpose" that GB have human Helper/s and not spiritual Helper??

Is this "coincidence or for purpose" that GB used this specific Bible wording, and gave this "title" to this people who are not "anointed" ??

Is this what Jesus meant, how Father will give human helpers who working in various Committees of WT Corporation??

:)))

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

Before the throne.  The earth is the footstool of the throne- read Isaiah 66:1.

⁹ After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. - Rev 7

-------------------------------------------------------------

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

² And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

³ And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, - Rev 14

I am pretty stupid sometimes, but after reading Revelation i have to notice how BOTH GROUP are BEFORE THRONE.

11 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

If, you prefer to think of both of these statements in terms of a principle, I would agree with you there as well.  

Yes, we can do agree :))

4 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Switzerland

I had been in Thun, Switzerland Betel too. I think that one very old couple was members at that time. Wife served with some simple task, almost meaningless, packing some postcards for visitors. Her husband get very ill, stroke or something and been free from work, but wife must contribute to be able to stay. They invite us for a tea. 

Austria Betel showed "normal german" hospitality. And they had part of basement full with various beer packages for drink to buy....when you emptying few welcome beer bottles in room refrigerator. :)))  I guess Bethel workers have every day routine and many of them have no extra time (will, emotions, strength, or "love" if you want) to welcome unknown strangers. That depends on many individual factors, i guess, but generally Bethel is working camp.

Rome Bethel was prepared for welcoming all delegates who were on international convention tour in 2004 (?) Convention was in Milano, Monza racing stadium. And Croatian BUS delegates sleeping in homes of brothers in various congregations around. We had been at one young couple home. Wife of brother was very serious and strict and not showed warmth (despite she was Italian, strange!! :))) but all others in congregation was very happy and we had good time with them.

You had very interesting and educational experience, for sure. Thanks for sharing :))