Srecko Sostar

15 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

Obviously God did not inspire those paragraphs. They read very badly in 2019.

Nevertheless, you shouldn't judge dead people by the morals of today. You probably have an ancestor that believed something similar yourself.

I am sorry, but this way of reasoning, contra-arguments and logic not working so well. 

Obviously God did not inspire those paragraphs

With this argumentation, do you try to say how some other paragraphs are inspired by God??

Nevertheless, you shouldn't judge dead people by the morals of today.

Perhaps you are right in this. But than you have to accept how today's people shouldn't be judge by morals of past  generations. What moral standards and from what past period of time we should to take as our moral standards today? Should we take moral standards of ancient patriarchs who had been in possession of few wife's and plenty of slaves? Because that was quite morally for people in the past. 

You probably have an ancestor that believed something similar yourself.

We all have ancestors.

It is interesting how from time to time, from post to post some unanimous individuals falling from some unknown Planet, and start giving down-vote symbol to other people comments.   :))))) 

This is funny, but also very good. Because their reaction are proof how they read comments and found it serious to such level that they (comments) in fact pressed right bottom in people's minds and feelings. 

Dear @Arauna , nothing in my comments are written because of hate. Just try to openly discussing about religious practice and reasons for such beliefs and practice. 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Everybody knows the book exists.

:))) you are not a person who speaks things that are not true ...... only things you believe it is true, but you claiming funny thing with this. 

Please go to JW library, link below, and you will not find nothing about this elder's book, or pioneer's book ....they don't exist for public.

 https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/lv/r1/lp-e/0/56506

On 12/3/2019 at 12:48 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

Few take traditional sexual morality as seriously as do JWs

From time to time there is some TV program here, where some young Catholic are proud to say how they respect marriage as Bible talking about. I don't know is it good to talk about people of any religious belongings as more or less "moral" than in some other religious group. 

Compare this two practices: JW dfd members who are sexually immoral. In some other religion they kill them. Does second religious group show more zeal for "purity" inside their religion? Do they act as "god's servant who carry sword and punishing all who brake the law according to authority god gave them"?

When whole World will be coming JW congregation, would/will sinners be dfd or killed? And, who will execute the judgment?  

9 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

'To whom more is given, more will be demanded'.  Hence IMO, the scriptures are written for the Anointed, and then the Anointed should teach the earthly class. (The GB are not of the anointed. By their works you will know them).  So then @Srecko Sostar the questions would be more complicated. Should stricter rules apply to the Anointed than to the earthly class ?

To whom more is given, more will be demanded' - this is fine proverb. What i see in this verse is not how "classes" come to existence. 

You open interesting question. Does some "rules" are obligated to specific "class" of people inside same group of people. Or, are they "same group" if they have "classes"? Is JW one "flock" with two separate groups? It can depends on Who is the Source and Creator of structure and how He/They imagined it have to look like...... and so on.

To be inside topic, we should ask your question in this way: Does practice of shunning is only mandatory for one sort of people, "class" of JW (elders for example)? And how other JW's are not obligated to follow such strict rule in this subject?

9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

They are that these are not your words. Who wrote this?

I used Google translator for all text this time, perhaps that is the reason :)))))) Do you want my Croatian original?

Examples, instructions and advises are published on many places in WT magazine study articles mainly, and some specifics are in "Flock" rule book. All we need is time and patient to find it and make a list of them (by chronology, by subject...)

You must have noticed that she's barefoot on stage. When the program manager returned, they gave a warm hug each other. Angelina was so genuinely surprised by the gift and gave her another tender hug. 

.... anyway, she is talent and sensible performer. Still, how to connect lyrics with such young person. I found further songs she singing here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhmLra5lAlk&feature=emb_rel_pause

Thanks! If you go to listen and watch some other videos, you will also notice how she, Lara, going  complètement  with emotions through song while singing.   

In the OT, there is a direct command, “Thou shalt not kill (murder)!” This command should contain God's view of human life, which emphasizes that life is holy, sacred before God, but also that people must have the same feeling about the lives of other people around them.

By reading the Bible, which describes the events before and after the occurrence of this commandment, we can see that this commandment has no absolute power. Within the same set of legal provisions, there are other commandments that were binding on the Israelites, too. For example, commands like; "Don't steal, don't lie, don't commit fornication ...". These commandments should never have been ignored or mitigated by some extraordinary circumstances.

The specificity of this commandment, "You shall not kill," is evident in the fact that it was not of valid, obligation for all men and for all circumstances. Powerful individuals in Israel sometimes making their own decisions to go on military campaigns against others (Israelis and non-Israelis) The law also justified killing for revenge.
In some other places, God commands the death penalty against an individual. Also, the Bible describes that God instituted great actions that justified killing of other people. These were most often military actions aimed at killing soldiers of the enemy army, but also their families. The killings of these other tribes and people were justified on the basis of several facts: 1) they were not Israelis  2) they lived in territory that the Israel nation were to conquer for themselves, 3) they belonged to other religions.

The execution of the death penalty for a crime still exists today in some societies and legal systems. Obviously, the death penalty decision is based on balance. The one who killed must be killed. But from some other biblical examples we have seen that murder is not the only crime punishable by death. The disobedient child was also sentenced to death. Different religious affiliations or different religious beliefs also led to the death penalty. Adultery was punished by death.

From what we have described so far, we can see how the command, "shall not kill," had a stretched meaning. It is therefore necessary to look at religious practices that are not new but may draw some parallels in symbolism and meaning. As you may already guessed, it is about an act of symbolic "killing" that is carried out in such a way to exclude (disfellowship) another person from a particular social (religious) group in a specific way - by ignoring aka shunning. Shunning (this is about JW organization in particular) can be made because of two conclusions.

The first conclusion is reached by an individual JW member who believes that another member of the congregation has wronged/sinned against the Bible and its principles to the extent that he / she personally presents a spiritual anomaly (in the form of a spiritual illness or threat) and decides to "label" particular person as inappropriate for him to have socializing contacts. He seeks to avoid contact and minimize any literal and spiritual communion.

In second conclusion, the conviction of the inappropriateness of a member is made by the body of the elders. The judgment may be based on the morally inappropriate behavior of an individual member, or it may be that an individual no longer agrees with the ideological and organizational structure or with the theological solutions of the organization what made him/her as "hostile element".

This is when a person is removed from congregational members aka "spiritually killed" in such a way to excommunicate (dfd) them (he,she) from the community and impose a ban on almost every contact with the dfd person. The ban has few variations and interpretations of how the shunning should be carried out. But the very core of such a demand not to contact the excluded person is evident from the widespread practice that JW members have consistently implemented - the excluded (dfd) is not even greeted with the simplest “Good afternoon” greeting (hallo) on the street.

JW's want to be peaceful people who go to jail in some countries because not want even to carry weapon in mandatory military service. They don't want take self-defense courses even for protect themselves when attacked. But they are motivated to be active in using spiritual weapons and warfare against ex members who are in a disagreement with doctrinal issues. And "killing" them with shunning.  

What are your thoughts? 

11 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

... we are selective so as to minimize our exposure to potentially harmful influences.

Absolutely agree. But what I see as it is possible to read in WT Society text about Higher education is this: They tend to separate young minds from "secular knowledge" because of some fears. Perhaps one of fear is not main reason, to be learned about non-Bible ideas. But as main reason i see how this "secular ideas" can cause that young JW members begin to question WT and Bible. 

Please have in mind what you already said, JHVH not decided to separate Congregation, but He doing just opposite. He let all sort of influence to be spread on  people, all people, not just JW's. If JHVH not made separation in literal way, than WT try to do this separation in limited level on limited class of people for limited time in their life - looks funny and not productive as they expect. 

12 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

I could rationalize that I need a job to support myself and my family - a legitimate and necessary need,  but would I choose to work for the mafia to do so? No, I would be selective and cautious. 

This was completely necessary to be said ... using this sort of illustration with mafia as subject :)))))

........... but you "provoked" me a little :)))) and i will add. We all working for devil the boss, because he is ruler, god of this world, global company/corporation. Just another, different way of rationalization.   :))))))

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

He may have told a story like this, but usually people create such stories so that their own moral lesson comes across with more authority.

Perhaps it can be as you said. And perhaps this can be true with many other similar "stories".  

What I see as important in this "story", is fine moral message and inspirational, motivating injection that in this materialistic and superficial everyday life offers a spiritual upgrade.... said with different order of words. 

2 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

Personally, per se, I am not a dogmatic "opposer" of higher learning

Thanks for respond and for your understanding. 

I would like to add also this about WT Society "warnings" and strong recommendations through publications and public talks about "higher education".

We have young people who going to High school of some sort. WT Society not giving explicit "warnings" about this level of education. Perhaps because WT think how young "worldly" people of that age are not big "risk" for young JW members. :))

Also, we have young people who going to Universities and similar educational level. But WT consider how young "worldly" people of that age is very "dangerous" and are big "risk" for young JW members. :))

But, have in mind also this. Many of this young "worldly" people from both level of educations ended....where?? At some working place, on some job. And now we have big surprise. Where young and not young JW members working, on what working place, on what job? At same place with all those "worldly" people who JW members try to avoid when were younger, when were in similar/same age. And now they are all together ....despite all efforts JW members done in previous years. Some JW member working at place as janitor and his school colleague (known or unknown)  is Principal or Manager or Boss who giving him orders what and how to do something. JW members avoid to be with him at University but spend with him cca 8 hours a day in same Firm. Well, what is so special to be benefit of that?   

To be in Line, to be Consistent  in "warnings and advice" about issue how to avoid this sorts of "risk" to be near "worldly" people,  WT Society should have to warn JW people not to looking for "secular" job because it is big "risk" to put yourself in such a godless society/environment. 

Bible shows how old and young can be caught in same sort of "trap".

:))

5 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

??? I'm not sure I understand your reasoning,

I just want to point out how, life is a sort of risk. Events that took place in Eden Garden (and in Heaven Realm with angels) show us how many things can go wrong when you are alive.

People who do not live (do not exist), or are dead, are not at risk and not causing any risk, (only health risk if they are not properly buried or burnt).  Perhaps corps are not risk for vultures. (black humor)

But want to show how facing "risks" is "normal" thing. You are at risk even in your congregation meetings. You can fall in love with person you should not to fall. Or somebody can be in "crush" with you. You are at risk to follow human interpretations of God's words!!! Children are at risk to be victims too. We have literal and spiritual risk that took place in congregation. And you have to deal with them. In that way, you are at risk where ever you go. Bible verses can give you good advice or warning, but they will not save you from every risk. If you are in a place, you believed is the safest place on Earth, than you are at risk ..... Bible shows this too :)) 

8 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

But there certainly is more of a risk to one’s spiritual health on a number of fronts.

Adam and Eve were at risk too. Their coming on Scene of Life was risk itself. But God himself put them at risk even more.... with The Tree, and with allowing devil to visit them. Without warning Adam and Eve what is coming on them.

In our life we have to be challenged from non friendly "elements" too, and main purpose is: to be stronger than before. Of, course you will not go purposely to prison to be surrounded by criminals for that reason, but it seems how some JW's consider non-JW people as "enemies".  

8 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

The main host of one of the tv travel documentaries was asked: “Who did you find were the happiest people in the world?” (No he didn’t say JWs although that may have been true;) His answer was that the happiest people were also the poorest materially.

Than, it would be interesting to understand why many poor people want to stop to be poor. And why many people who are not poor (according to statistics and normative about what poverty is) are not ready to leave their material position for purpose to be "more happy" with less money.

Does this poor people, described in comments, are happy because they are among people with similar material status, and such position not cause comparison or envy and jealousy?  

8 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

Pursuing higher education is often less about satisfying basic and legitimate needs and more about lifestyle. Wise king Solomon knew the truth about these things. His observations are worth a second look. 

People want to learn, to know more, generally. And as such this is one way how to satisfying basic and legitimate needs. Adam and Eve also want to learn more, about The Tree. Despite the ban of eating (eating = get knowledge), their natural need (putted in them in moment of Creation by God) for learning and know more put them in the risk.

King Solomon was extremely rich. And, as he quoted few times personally, he was in position to afford for himself all "this wisdom" not only because of Heavenly Revelations that came to him few times, but because of Riches he had (and people, poor and rich Israeli people have made it possible for him). 

Solomon proved main issue, that you can be rich and happy in the same time.  :)))   

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

But I am a singer..... I like words.... can you write some? 

 

I can try ))) .... but not now. That is serious stuff.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

No it never had words....

Our imagination is capable to add words, unspoken sometimes, and to bring us in emotions stronger than words.