Srecko Sostar

53 minutes ago, Anna said:

creating a "certain" environment

Of course that all people in one group contributing how that environment will look like. Article made point, with given example about individual who are in position of authority, how people with authority are very important in this and how develop of many things is based on platform that people in authority creating (or has been creating). They are some sort of pillars and members will look on them and how they respond on various stimuli inside and from outside congregation.  I think how this is message in article how main responsibility, what sort of environment took place, is on elders. 

Congregation is not understand as private place for games, but serious place for service .... and sometimes for cowboy dancing or musical show too. But that is rare. What is we talking about is, how much you can go with your different idea, view, opinion and when they will and how stop you in your open voice. Your different idea about and rejecting "overlapping generation", even without your active promoting that on others, can be viewed as your weak faith, law spirituality because of "worldly pressure" you going through, negative thoughts, the appearance of doubt ...etc. In their's "arsenal", elders can find reason to put increased attention to you, or even to silently warn others about your weakness. Of course you know your elders better than me, but they are "shepherds" and have to keep you inside "flock". :)) 

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

1. In English, all those people in the past who worship Jehovah, were not Jehovah's Witnesses; they were Jehovah's witnesses. Note the smaller "w."

In Croatian are some different rules about uppercase and lowercase letters in these sort of two words names, titles. Because of this, I wasn't careful enough about what it would mean in the English language. Croatian WT magazines are translated with small letter for word "Witnesses" in name JW.

When I connected the past and the present and all those various people who showed themselves to be "witnesses" for JHVH in some specific way, then that meant continuity. Not only or not at all the continuity of a legal entity - an organization, but the existence of a type of people, as individuals and as groups. That is something how JW organization and WT Society, as legal entities, looking on themselves ...as continuation, as heirs of true faith, as witnesses for JHVH, from the time of the all faithful man of old and old patriarchs. 

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

2. The actual statements will sometimes make claims that "Jehovah's Witnesses" (uppercase "W") taught a certain thing before, during, or shortly after 1914 that they didn't teach. For example, more than 70 years before 1991, they were still teaching that Jesus had become king in 1878, not 1914.

In that sense, a legacy that the WT Society draws from Bible Students of Russell (teaching, doctrines, ideas, beliefs, administration) legally belongs to today's JW as facts that created and been cause for future "destiny" of those who continued the work of founders in 19th century. In such way of logic, all Russell's teaching and belief system, later abandoned, stay as real history of this, today existed JW organization. Museums halls that exists in worldwide Betel's buildings (Branch Offices) proves this. JW of today are proud of their history and beginnings in 19th century (not before, because Bible pictures of faithful men and Israel nation is heritage that many other religions want to appropriate for themselves too). By publicly showing and talking and writing about that in such way, JW accepting all what was said (teachings) before 1931 as own spiritual heritage that must to be carry today (as sort of burden).    

48 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Is there any committee or individuals that oversee or monitor the work of the GB?

48 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

You seem to forget, there is, God does.

48 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

smart people easily see but a regular Joe might not.

Me, "as regular Joe", have to be sad and have amusement in the same time  about your  idea how God "oversee and monitor the work of the GB".  If He doing this monitoring, that is in a manner how he view many other human activities - to allows them but not to approved them.

48 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

JWinsider used this as a sarcastic way of saying, yeah CC you should talk since the Watchtower itself speaks of Jehovah witnesses as being part of the Bible Students when they weren’t JWs before 1931.

What is real point in this? How WT lying about own history and their position before God? In informal way, Bible students (in Russell time) were been (and are under different names today) witnesses for JHVH. WT have logic how all people from past until today who worship JHVH, ARE Jehovah's Witnesses. :))

¹¹ Do you have a position of authority? If so, ask yourself: ‘What kind of environment do I create at work or at home? Do I promote peace? Do I encourage others to ask questions? And am I willing to hear their opinions?’ Never would we want to be like the Pharisees, who resented those who questioned them and persecuted those who expressed an opinion contrary to their own.—Mark 3:1-6; John 9:29-34. - WT study article September 2019, page 23 par 11

"What kind of environment" do GB create inside JW Organization aka congregations ?

8 hours ago, Anna said:

Obviously this is a rhetorical question 

Same thing, the GB are. Everything passes through the GB. That is not to say they ignore input from each other, and others in the various departments at Bethel.

 

Third person writing style is more objective. Sometimes they, the GB get more personal and say "we, the GB have decided.....etc"  But when it comes to publications, read by millions, they think it's more appropriate to use the third person so it's, like I said, more objective. Plus, the publications are not an autobiography. It wasn't that long ago when most JWS didn't even know who the members of the GB were. Or only had very slight knowledge. But there are autobiographical articles (life stories) about members of the GB in the publications written in the first person.

(Call it theatrics, false modesty or whatever, but you can't please everyone. Now, opposers are complaining that the GB are in the limelight TOO much).

 

 

 

oooh...now his quote disappeared...

No Anna, in this issue not. In Department (Writing Dep. i assume) i guess there is a people who doing writings for commissioned articles about this and that, or have some list of topics to cover. And then some overseer of department splits the tasks to best writer for particular theme. 

Is there any committee or individuals that oversee or monitor the work of the GB? My guess is it doesn't exist. So there is no objective, more real picture of the true state of GB.  The conversations conducted here show that there are many valid reasons for correcting GB.

If someone inside Betel writes an article about GB, his writing is influenced by his employer, which is GB. Writing in the first or third person loses all meaning if we have a text that is not objective about those who are being written.

You said:  Sometimes they, the GB get more personal and say "we, the GB have decided.....etc"  I can't recall something was written this way. It reminds very strong on Bile report: WE and HOLY SPIRIT..... DECIDED to.....:))))) but because GB are not inspired, decision is only from them NOT with/under HS cooperation/influence.

It wasn't that long ago when most JWS didn't even know who the members of the GB were. Or only had very slight knowledge. But there are autobiographical articles (life stories) about members of the GB in the publications written in the first person. That is true. And this PR about GB members not going to be blessing for JW's, as i see. Because, while readers looking on text they are/been limited on letters and words and on own understanding and reasoning. Now, when you can see person who speaking those words, his look and gestures and mimics, his tone of voice...picture getting to be clearer, bigger and stronger. Viewer of JWTV program now have better chance to reject preaching of such religious leaders, than he/she got while reading paper only.  

According to scientific knowledge, the entire universe is in two states every day: something becomes and something disappears. Life on Earth is in the same status.

I am disappointed with suffer of creatures on Earth, too. And can't connect with "my picture" of God as i accepted through JW Bible interpretations and my own interpretations, then and now. What if we made wrong pictures about Creator? .... based on wrong or failed text? 

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

*** w17 February p. 26 par. 12 Who Is Leading God’s People Today? ***
The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction. . . .Of course, Jesus did not tell us that his faithful slave would produce perfect spiritual food.

What amazed me many times is this: Who writes articles, and about whom, and to whom?

Here we have one paragraph about GB. Questions arise. 

Who makes this observations and conclusions about GB??

Who is authorized to make comments about GB and their works??

Why examination about  GB, had been presented in a way, manner, as it is done by "Third Party"?

Is it possible that GB is not able, in power to talk about themselves and gave self evaluation, introspective about own feelings, thoughts and deeds??!! 

What a theatrics for public. They are histriones :))

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

Different situations were present in ancient times. i.e. Israelites were allowed to have a concubine for instance..... BUT Job was a good man because he was generous with his possessions and he was faithful to only one wife - even though se was a nagger - lol.

Does this mean that Jehovah will judge these people by the standards set by Jesus of one wife only?

Yes, the laws of justice, mercy,  being honest are universal laws and will be in effect - no matter what the era or time period..... but some other considerations will also be taken into account.  After all - Jehovah is perfect and he will judge perfectly.  Unfortunately we do not judge perfectly.  Some persons did things as a young stupid person and society still hold them accountable for their entire life and treats them like outcasts....Jehovah can read the heart and he knows.  There are many situations where we cannot judge perfectly.... 

I see that you take some time to thinking again about issue of "retro-activity" in connection to law/laws and people' deeds and judging. 

What i have in mind (when i wrote first comment) as answer to your' and mine' questions on subject, about different time periods and different laws that had been in power through all this long period of time, is this: God will use Law  and "law paragraphs" that is most merciful and beneficial, most favorable for "sinner" (according to His Love and Wisdom and Justice). 

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

My friend, this is only a wish these days

I agree. It seems how humankind is left to suffer. .... On other hand God, according to Romans book, gave to secular authorities to develop and evolve to this democratic standards we see today. Well, what we have? We have few tools how to change our circumstances in which we living. To vote, and to do that until people find the best of the worst. To plan revolution and make change in drastic and short time. To wait, and ..... to wait that problem be solved by self. :))

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

She was working at a school when the UN came

I am not sure what is this. UN as United Nations? Real, true UN officers and department, or some fake UN people?

Appointment for a ministry, according to the Bible method, was done in accordance with Divine revelation and stimulus.

Of course, in the Bible we also have examples of appointments that were not God-generated. This means that some did their job, exercises ministry, in spite of their false appointment.

What lessons we take from such reality? How looked like appointment of Moses? How looked like appointments of Saul and David? Who done such appointments? Samuel. Who appointed Samuel, when and how? All that was done, according to Bible, in mystical, supernatural way. As many other appointments till Jesus and apostles. And we can assume, according to Bible descriptions about such events, how "inspiration" had main role in that. Samuel "was inspired" to made appointments. John the Baptist "was inspired" to do this and that. And so on. 

Problem that WT Society Leaders have in this, is their open claim, even expressed as defense, protection of their personality and position, how they are Not Inspired. They claim how Jesus and God "chose them and appointed them", with spirit. But GB-FDS took very strong stand how they did not receive the spirit in such a way that they became inspired by that spirit and to be able to give some "measure" of such spirit to other people. If it is this way, than GB has no spirit in them to continue with proper appointments of other ministers, elders, (to appoint them by spirit) and they are not in capacity to pass this (received) spirit on them, inside congregation.

3 minutes ago, Arauna said:

You used these words and made an incorrect assumption.  I do not fall for your bait.

"The Truth" can have more than one meaning. For JW's this expression is understand only as Religious Truth according to WT Society Teachings.

Please go above of JW's definition. :))

"The Truth" in context i using in our conversation includes Every Truth which is Truth In Itself, and which, if we are to include God in it, is acceptable to God and his principles. (Have in mind how God is above all Religions including WT Society)

9 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Yes, some people are naturally good and kind and there is no need to look down on them.  Satan had the opposite type of personality....... which type of arrogance many people here display..... and they are not as smart as they think they are.... 

 

I was not talking about the Truth...... I was talking about the law which protect lawyers and clergy from revealing confessions.

Then, please, let me ask this way: Is such law "The Truth" ?

14 hours ago, Arauna said:

The catholic church has refused to use confessions from people against them as well - as in JWs.    

May we make conclusion that both, Catholic and JW have "The Truth" about this issue ? :)))

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

Some witnesses are inclined this way..... but they would be like sheeple even if they were not JWs.

This is interesting observation.

With this it is possible to see how some individuals are Naturally kind, good, humble, they let God to guide them through "His earthly servants" (who ever they are). :)) 

Also we can go with this: God "Created them in such Nature" and they don't need congregation, WT publications or even Bible to make them humble and to obey God or other people in "His service". They do not need to make special "efforts" to be in Line with God's will. They do this by Nature. :)) 

5 hours ago, ASF-37 said:

Srecko,

The “question” I asked, how many other religious websites do you personally go into on a daily basis to argue child abuse?

I will answer: Just on this. (but not to discuss only about CA)

Now please, you answer on mine: What is questionable about Court document and GB members as Defendants in it?

1 hour ago, ASF-37 said:

Srecko,

How many other religions do you go into their forums to argue child abuse? I’m not referring to how many religions you combine here but instead go directly to the hundreds of other religious websites and daily barrage them with questionable content that is being supplied on the internet, that is apparently accepted by Jehovah witnesses here in order to agree with persons that impugn and repudiate their religious bylaws?

Why then, are you not satisfied that there are many Jehovah witnesses here, in agreement with ex-witnesses; that you have a need to continue with such conduct?

Thanks for respond.

Perhaps you have right that my conduct is boring, but this Topic is about one and same subject. I see my participation as something that is inside this topic.  

I am glad that some other JW's are in agreement with my thoughts as well some other ex-JW. Perhaps you too is in one of this group.

As i can understand @Arauna position, or your' after this respond you addressed me, it seems that me and some other people using "questionable content". What is questionable about Court document and GB members as Defendants in it?

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

You focus only on JWs and have no clue of the extent of pedophelia in the world.

It is good that you have clue about this issue. And because of your knowledge on that, it is strange that you want to minimize JW involving in this problem. It seems that you want to tell us here how JW organization in fact has NO Problem on this subject. Sad!

If ex-JW making focus on this JW issue, why you find this inappropriately?

If secular authorities making focus on this JW issue, why you find this inappropriately?

Who is authorized, in your opinion, to speak up about this? GB and WT Lawyers? 

12 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Interpretation of scripture is best served with exact knowledge. If not, you’re just preaching to the choir.

WT Society "rowing" (JW TV broadcast with G. Lösch)  about knowledge. So I do not see what  is "exact" about JW theology. Few doctrines that differentiate JW from Catholic church, for example, doesn't prove much. Because same or similar teachings are part of some other denominations or organization, too and vice versa.

It could be how WT Society made own "choir" of members and "preaching" them plenty of "exact clarifications" about "knowledge".  

39 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

For the ear tests words
    as the tongue tastes food.  - Job 34

So, yes. You should believe, if you have ear to test words. :)) 

Coming from a righteous man.

⁹ What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. ¹⁰ As it is written:

12 hours ago, César Chávez said:

What you are saying, witnesses should believe ex-witnesses. How does that make sense? Why should I believe anything an Ex-GB had to say in his book?

For the ear tests words
    as the tongue tastes food.  - Job 34

So, yes. You should believe, if you have ear to test words. :)) 

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Shepherd book 2012

...  and now Shepherd book 2019

CAUTIONS BEFORE RECOMMENDING CERTAIN BROTHERS

6. Elders should make sure they have full and complete information regarding the brothers they intend to recommend to the circuit overseer, especially those in the following circumstances.

7. Previously Reproved, Disfellowshipped, or Disassociated: If he was reproved within the past three years or reinstated within the past five years, please provide the following information: What was the offense? In a case of reproof, did the judicial committee make an announcement? In a case of disfellowshipping or disassociation, what is the date of reinstatement? When were the last restrictions lifted? Are you aware of his having been reproved, disfellowshipped, or disassociated on any other occasions? What convinces you that he has lived down his past wrongdoing and that others now view him as a good example? If the wrongdoing took place in another congregation, how would that congregation view his appointment? Recommending him prematurely could minimize the seriousness of wrongdoing in his own eyes and in the eyes of others. It could also disturb those who still have his wrongdoing fresh in their memories.

8. Guilty of Adultery in the Past: When did the adultery occur? Was he reproved or disfellowshipped? If he was reproved, was an announcement made? Did the innocent mate reject him? How do you know this? If he divorced and remarried, did he marry the individual with whom he committed adultery? Is there evidence that he schemed to put away his former mate or that he pressured her to accept a divorce? Did the adultery break up the marriage of the other person? How were others affected by his adultery? Is the innocent mate still alive? Did the innocent mate remarry? What convinces you that he has lived down his past wrongdoing and is now viewed with respect? If the wrongdoing took place in another congregation, how would that congregation view his appointment?-See 12:10-12. CHAPTER 8 "SHEPHERD THE FLOCK OF GOD" APPOINTMENT AND DELETION OF ELDERS AND MINISTERIAL SERVANTS

9. Separated or Unscripturally Divorced: Who is primarily to blame for the marital problems? What were the circumstances surrounding the separation or divorce? Who was responsible for the separation, or who pursued the divorce? Did both sign the decree or in some other way indicate their agreement? How long ago did the separation or divorce occur? What is the brother doing to try to reconcile? Is his mate unwilling to cooperate with his efforts? If so, why? How is his situation viewed by the congregations involved? How do the elders of the mate's congregation feel about the brother? When separation and divorce are involved, there may be deficiencies on the part of one or both mates that make it necessary to limit special privileges because one or both mates may not be viewed as exemplary.-w00 12/15 pp. 28-29; /vs pp. 250-251.

10. Served as an Elder or a Ministerial Servant in the Past: With what congregation did he previously serve, and when did he stop serving? Why did he stop serving? What makes his circumstances different now? What progress has he made since he stopped serving? If he stopped serving in another congregation, how would that congregation view his reappointment? If he previously served as an elder and was not guilty of gross wrongdoing, it may not be necessary for him now to serve first as a ministerial servant, depending on the length of time since he stopped serving as an elder.-See 13:8.

24 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

When questionable persons were asked to join the GB during the 1970's, there was a rule that past mistakes of elders could be ignored if they were long enough in the past and they were not currently causing a reputation problem in the congregation.

.... if they were long enough in the past....

19. If it comes to light or an appointed brother confesses that he has committed a disfellowshipping offense years in the past: The body of elders may determine he can continue to serve if the following is true:The immorality or other serious wrongdoing occurred more than a few years ago,and he is genuinely repentant,recognizing that he should have come forward immediately when he sinned. (Perhaps he has even confessed to his sin, seeking help with his guilty conscience.)He has been serving faithfully for many years, has evidence of God’s blessing, and has the respect of the congregation. 20. If the sin occurred before he was appointed as an elder or a ministerial servant,the elders will need to take into consideration the fact that he should have mentioned this possible impediment to his being qualified when elders interviewed him just prior to announcing his appointment. Moreover, the nature of the sin may reflect greatly on his qualifications to serve.For example,the sin may involve past child abuse,and this would likely disqualify him for many years.—w971/1pp.26-29;w77pp.697-698.

38 “Shepherd the Flock of God”—1Peter5:2

21. If the wrong doing occurred within the past few years while he was serving as an elder or a ministerial servant, he is disqualified from serving as such, not being“free from accusation.”(1Tim.3:2,10;Titus1: 6,7)Depending on the circumstances,the situation may also need to be handled by a judicial committee. —See5:43-44. 

Shepherd book 2012

10 hours ago, Bogdan11 said:

Why isn’t society being more proactive

I think @Arauna explained this part of subject how one part of society that including JW members are not willing to be proactive. And that also contribute to general situation.

I agree with many what Arauna described in her comment. And i am also "broken" with so much suffer and bad things that some people and especially children going through. 

It is not about "twisting facts". If people are not satisfied with people who taking a lead, who rule, governing over them and their life, because they have double standards and twisting justice in "worldly system", they have chance to replace them by voting. And so on until they find the best people world can offer. JW not want to be "proactive" in this matter. That is their right to have such stand. But than, why to criticize system. System, "worldly", is mirror of people in general.

JW system is also mirror of people that living and working and contributing to it as such. In general, JW people making effort to be good, but WT Society also have internal "system" that is corruptible and contribute to JW world, as also to worldly world, to be bad place for some individuals (victims).   

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

Study the laws that were in place and do not judge us by the current laws retroactively

19 minutes ago, Bogdan11 said:

I agree

Let us go further. By what law JHVH would judge people who lived in different periods of time. Because, as I understand Bible and WT interpretations of some verses, God will judge all our deeds. No matter of when people lived and no matter when they done something and did they die or still living.

By what law He will do that? By the law that was in power when those people lived and done things, good and bad .......or will He using one Law (Present law in the moment of judging) and retroactively judged all our past deeds?

 Because Bible said how He will do that Retroactively.   God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” - Rom 2  

52 minutes ago, Witness said:

It wasn’t until my husband became an elder that reality very slowly began to seep into my brain.  Although I didn’t know the reasons for his many shepherding visits, or late night phone calls, I could see the strain on his face caused by whatever it was he was dealing with; and the spiritual, protective bubble that I had believed in, was growing weaker by the year. I began to comprehend how being in the organization was causing strain on him, his wife and his three little boys. My bubble of the haven of peace, love and spiritual security, eventually burst.  My husband has since told men he dealt with issues of marital and child abuse, although I never asked who was involved.

Your entire comment and thoughts inside it are excellent and giving real picture on that part of JW organization and members. 

I have singled out this section relating to the work of elders. The work of those elders who are concerned about the lives of the people, and their commitment to the spiritual and emotional relationships of the assembly members.
I can assume that all such individuals among the elders, who are in the minority, experience very serious, conflicting turmoil. For those elders who are very sensitive by nature, all that they may face can be too much. For such elders, who begin to perceive the paradox that arises between truth, justice, Jesus' teaching, on the one hand, and the corporate governance of that power, the power that human influences and positions (hierarchies) have of things, can end up very bad for themselves. Even in suicide.

11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Gulf War, Spanish-American, Civil War, to name a few. “People helping people:”—I admit I have never looked upon it that way. You are on to something, Srecko.

To be sure, many will go to war with noble intentions. What the overall picture shows, however, is that “man is dominating man to his injury.” Isn’t there a religion somewhere that points to the solution to that predicament?

Of course, when you take "sword" (of any kind. literal and spiritual too) in your hand many things can go wrong. 

But, i know that you understand what i was talking about. Your objection about my comment is "just for the sake of the public and to write something". :)))

Wars in OT including Abraham to David and other individuals, and nation Israel, can be viewed and explained under both lights.