Srecko Sostar

Last week i experienced, in interval of few minutes, how two elders from another congregation respond on my look at them, accros the street, and giving greting with smile. Younger, son of older brother, returned with a smile. Few minutes later, two sisters standing with box and looked at woman with dog. I was walking beside them, again with happy face with looking on sister from my ex congregation, She returned with a smile on her face. …..Or maybe that was because of playing with dog :))))

I acknowledge how i don't know what they know and think. But what i know in general, is that Christendom talking about going to Paradise after death and having wonderful life there, i didn't hear they expected to be Kings and Priests :)))

Imagine yourself as Lawyer who defending innocent person. But what if you are so clumsy and unprepared and from time to time looking in a bottle. How this can help your client - God? I think how God can defend self much better than human will and would do it for Him. An at last, according to Bible that work (defending Fathers rights) Jesus already finished very successfully.

Hi. No problems with numbers :))) When you mentioned numbers, some would say how 144000 can be a symbolic number too, not literal. Because Lamb is also symbolic expression, and not literal creature. :)) I am not sure do they want to "Rule"...... or just to be in Paradise with him. :)) No problem Tom. That will not make me "mentally ill" :)). Thesaurus. com diseased [ dih-zeezd ]SEE DEFINITION OF diseased adj.unhealthy Synonyms for diseased afflicted ailing infected infirm rotten sickly indisposed infectious sick tainted unsound unwell unwholesome ill [ il ]SEE DEFINITION OF ill adj.sick adj.bad, evil nounmisfortune Synonyms for ill afflicted ailing diseased infirm poorly woozy down a wreck below par bummed down with feeling awful feeling rotten feeling terrible got the bug indisposed laid low off one's feet on sick list out of sorts peaked queasy rotten run-down running temperature sick as a dog under the weather unhealthy unwell Well, than it seems, how elders going above given power and position, because they, elders in congregations suppressing not only criticism but also critical thinking :))

Thanks @Matthew9969 for using WT magazines. This articles shows how GB want to present us, how mental illness was not started with "apostates" in recent time. Wording "mental illness" is connect with WT Society context about result, outcome that is seen in JW members who think how they are sort of people who belongs to people known as 144000 class. They numbered several reasons why some JW member thinks about self as King and Priest aka part of 144000. They say: in 1996 -after a while they acknowledged that this was an error -an emotional response -perhaps physical or mental strain in 2011 -past religious beliefs -mental or emotional imbalance in 2016 -mistakenly think that they are anointed -mental or emotional problems It is obvious how WT Society is organization who looks on one part of members as people who have not mental and emotional balance. Perhaps GB say so, because of Jesus words how he is send to ill, sick people, and that also including physical, mental and emotional defects. But we see how GB put this explanation on exactly one specific class or group of individuals inside organization - "anointed". On all anointed individuals who are outside of GB... or Helpers. Well, here we see how few anointed individuals who are in position to call themselves as FDS who sharing spiritual food, decided to sending message through publications how only them are mentally, physically and emotionally in perfect health. All other are in question. Well, where insane people living? Inside or outside sanatorium?

Marty, I am sorry, but I'm afraid you're (we) stuck here :))))

First of all, i have to noticed this: WHAT sort of READERS would come to such idea to even ask such question? Is it ADVISABLE for a C. MINISTER to give talk ...? ........ Good God! Also, this question showed how JW's are under (influenced) general idea (of Catholic church) how suicide is consider as sin. Because God is Master of life and you have no right to end something what is given to you (and to other people) as God's gift. Life belong to God, so He is only one who can give or take life. In such cultural-social environment, suicide is not viewed as something acceptable for member (or is in some black-grey zone). Another thing, JW funerals talks are, in almost all cases, made in form to giving witnessing to non witness people. That is main reason for giving talk, and not so much about comforting of those who stay. i believe how many times, or almost always this questions are products of Bethel moves and strategy. Because, i can be sure how exist people who send some other letters/questions and such subjects not came under this section. Internet is place to ask unpleasant questions and to hear answers that is sometimes hard to accept.

Light is in you. JTR explained, in a kind way, do not look for some imaginable "new light" as something that coming from organized religion or corporation.

I would disagree with your tactics in word usage If you don't mind, i put down copy paste, partially the text you made, what i understand and see as your stand: Mentally diseased means anything but what is scripturally stated in 1 Tim. 6:3, 4. FALSE TEACHERS. Anyone that misleads by the teaching of Christ and God’s words is mentally diseased, not just apostates. I was going again through our text and saw this detail: Tom: Anyone that misleads by the teaching of Christ and God’s words is mentally diseased, not just apostates. Srecko: Tom said previously how every person who are not in line with Jesus teachings (JW or not JW) is mentally ill. Yes, here we have some differences in wording and in marking what sort of people are "mentally ill". You pointed on those group of people who "handle" with Jesus' words and misleading others while doing that. Who are those people? Nominal clergy class, elder class, GB? Or, and also members of church, congregation, who by repeating what they learned from their "teachers" also spreading false teachings? Because all this sort of classes, i mentioned, participate in such activity, i would understand how all of them are "mentally ill", because of final outcome you pointed with: they misleads (other people) by the teaching of Jesus, that in fact is not His teaching. In my resume on your comment, i said: .... how every person who are not in line with Jesus teachings (JW or not JW) is mentally ill. I do not see any tactics in word usage from my part, because both class of people, those who misleads other and those who are mislead by other (by first class) are and come to be "mentally ill" because of bad spiritual food they have eaten and still eating. I hope this will clarify our wording and understanding of what was said and thought with expressed words. :))

I will guess how many ex Bethel workers who lost their jobs after WT Society accepted a new economic and financial audit of operations within the corporation, ask for and received Letters of Recommendations. No matter of jobs they had in Bethel, from cleaning and washing to IT skills, those letters possibly helped some of them when looking for secular jobs. I know one Bethel elder who left Bethel and because he has fine knowledge about computers, he open private business and now living from that. His wife also found secular job. One sister who left Bethel as cleaner, have not easy time to found and keep cleaning work at secular job market. Some other Bethel people lost place in Home, and went to pioneer service or looking for jobs. I do not know what official credentials, diploma they have. But that depend on what secular school education they have had accomplished before Bethel. Only, as i learned by @JW Insider respond, Gilead School students received formal piece of paper as proof of finished education inside WT Society. All other, Bethel workers, can get Recommendation Letter. But I am not sure for what secular jobs, Gilead School students, can/would candidate for in real word. Funny thing i see in Recommendation Letter and Gilead Diploma. According to Bible verses in 2 Cor 3, JW rejecting such Letters and Diplomas as proof for their qualification about service, ministry (in teaching others about Gospel, using Bible as whole for teaching others) This including two things: 1) "spiritual" qualification for teaching , and 2) "spiritual" qualification for position in hierarchy (clergy style). On other side it is good if you have some paper as proof of your qualification .... for something. Or as proof how you have skills and experience in cleaning floors. Little irony, you won't mind me .:)) I am working in one High School. For several years we have White Boards and board markers in almost all classes. Few smart boards, too. Only in one room, teacher (older generation) want to stay on white chalk and green board. Ministry of education, working on school reform (new curriculum) and equip schools with technological equipment. In the same time teachers and professors in Grammar (children from 7-15 of age) and High school (from 15 - 18 of age) system, are in strike for better material position, salary. It is hard to find professor for IT subject to teach children, because they can find jobs with much better salary than in school.

The content of your comment is one of the best, or best of all, in this forum. Because it talks about the elemental thing in life and for life. Most of our comments are just philosophizing. Needed, but .....

... and failed catastrophically, too. :)))) I can't recall what verse in Genesis about Adam and Eve in Paradise speaking how God gave to Adam authority over Eve. I am not sure in what direction you going with next sentence: .... and with this: After this comment: I am not sure what ideology, idea you promote? or you just made parody on issue :))

I suppose how, for example, Statute or Charter of some institution, association, golf club, or charity as WT Society, must be according to state law, secular law. When speaking about "Secular authority" as God's Servant, that would undoubtedly mean how such sort of authority has Power over WT Society, congregations and members. If secular Judge make unjust or wrong decision, God will call him for responsibility, because Judge is JHVH Servant. Does WT Society and members believe in that? They have to wait for JHVH. Just be calm and wait, nothing more. God will repay them all injustice.

WT Society and JW Organization looking on Education of Priests in "worldly" Schools and Universities who give them Diploma or Credentials, as something that is not needed for serving God in any capacity. It doesn't matter if you are rank and file member or serving as Ministerial servant or an Elder in JW congregation. On the contrary, "higher education", no matter is it question about religious or secular education, is viewed from most JW congregants, as something that is in opposition to God, His Word - Bible, and in fact it is product of corrupted World which is run by devil. For this and some other reasons, WT publications giving advice to members not to go to University to get "higher education". Instead, they say, it is enough to finish Elementary school or some Higher school to be able to get some job that will provide you basic material status. What "flock" need is possible to get, to find through religious educational program provide by WT Society through congregational meetings, courses, some additional programs for specific groups inside organization (pioneers, elders, missionaries, etc.) One specific instrument for education is Gilead School. JW members and leaders are very proud of fact how God provide them best education through Bible and Organization. And how they not need any Credentials or Diploma to be able to prove how they have sufficient knowledge, expertise and ability for handle with Bible and to educate other people about God. Who need peace of paper as proof you have qualification to work in such spiritual field? Jworg web site: Application was made to the U.S. government for foreign students to be admitted under non immigration student visa provisions. In response, the U.S. Office of Education gave recognition to Gilead School as offering education comparable to professional colleges and educational institutions. Thus, since 1953, U.S. consuls throughout the world have had the Watchtower Bible School of Gilead on their list of approved educational institutions. As of April 30, 1954, this school appeared in the publication entitled “Educational Institutions Approved by the Attorney General.” - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101993032#h=131 WT Society say how "worldly education" is of no worth for future life in Paradise, even more, it is inspired by devil and can corrupt JW young members, WHY this same WT Society had need to be RECOGNIZED by Educational worldly system, about whom they speaking so bad? For JW students who need visa for US to be able to come to Gilead School. This is technical reason. And Gilead School, by this action, found itself on worldly list with all other undesirable institutions who "spiritually corrupting people". Do Gilead School students get some "credentials or diploma" in shape of paper after they successfully finished program? Because they "graduate class".

I would go back to fundamental reasons of that we talking about. No matter do we talking about revision, better understanding, new light, simplicity ......etc. point is this: In what mental state has been all this individuals who made first, second, third, and so on with numbers, doctrine and then revision of that same doctrine? Tom said previously how every person who are not in line with Jesus teachings (JW or not JW) is mentally ill. It seems how all authors and all who approved what was written in WT publications had mental issues and that is main reason for revision of doctrines. Just repeating Tom's idea with new wording :)))

If we want to apply @Tom Henry way of reasoning and logic, and not only in religious matters but in every human activity because life means all and not only religion, we all are lunatics and deeply mentally ill. (In very deep sincerity i would agree with that :)))) Perhaps i would understand Tom Henry if he want to use Bible report of Eden excommunicate starting point. But that also would mean how religious legacy that WT Society and JW organization want to show how is based on every past "faithful witness for JHVH" individual or group is not possible to establish. Because, in very first moment when God aka Father had cute all spiritual (and literal) "family ties" with Adam and Eve and by that with their children, they been left in all sort of mental problems because their Father didn't want to "pick up telephone and answer on their call even to say Hello and to satisfied their emotional need to just hear His voice and be calmed by that". You can imagine how such treatment of ignoring (shunning) can cause all sort of emotional difficulties in individual. Such constant stress lead to depression and mental problems. It would not be surprise how some people ended in "mental house", in literal institution or home made nuthouse. If it is true how humankind is separated from God because of Adam sin, than we all are crazy. WT Society generously contribute to general madness (of flock) because they shows continuity in changing doctrines that was previously been established on Bible, deep study and prayers of faithful men..... and after change was made, new doctrine is also established on same methods and have same name - "the truth". It is logical how inside mental state of suppressed thoughts and emotion about WT Society doctrines can make people to be "mentally ill".

I agree. And you even not need to be obsessed or zeal with/for something, but still doing wrong thing. That is what i have in mind. But also is important where you are in that moment (spiritual and literal place). If such person is observed from/by people who not belong to same ideology it could be viewed as "fanatic" (zealous or obsessed, it would not be too much difference) Even inside own group, various levels of "spirituality" that individuals (and others around) have and shows, that individuals see as desirable and good, as the qualities that people around and god himself expecting of us to have them, can be in range from, what fellow brotherhood consider as, normal, role model zeal to something what can be very confusing and doubtful.

They are children of this period of time. And this is true for all of them, non JW children and JW children. WT Society can't do nothing to stop children to be "obsessed" about technology and viral life. That is why WT Society need to make changes (already in process) to make and hold interest of children and young people, and future old people in technology and equipment that will serve for purposes in modern shapes and sorts of worship.

To be zealous about something can be seen as obsession, too. For example, pioneer service is proof how some JW member is zeal for JHVH. He/she spend 35, 50, 70 hours or much more hours. Other things in their life are putted down for spiritual reasons. And such person mostly thinking about one thing - preaching. Is he/she obsessed with this activity? Many wouldl show "signs" of that. We can see how one Bible individual act in "obsessed" way. For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb........And the child continued to grow and to become strong in spirit, and he lived in the deserts......Now John himself had a garment of camel's hair and a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey.....For John came neither eating nor drinking......Now in those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea..... From our today's perspective even JW members would say how such person (without knowing source of description) is not in full mental health.

Dear Arauna, I don't know how other people feels, but will say for my self. I can't give to you and to other here any prophecy because of several reasons: 1) i am not true prophet 2) i am not false prophet 3) i am not inspired 4) i am not mentally ill :)))))) ... well yes you are right, i can only comment or criticize or give critical thinking on WT Society interpretations of prophesies and their attempt to explain when and how particular prophesy taking fulfillment....in other words WT "prophecy". ... criticizing JW timeline ...... jehovah is (NOT) the perfect timekeeper we expect him to be. .... I will describe how i explain this wording, you can correct me if you think otherwise. We have Bible and some verses that we think is a prophecy. We (in this case JW organization and WT Society) made, making and changing several versions of the explanation/interpretations as something that it is, must be, have to be, it can't be something else ...etc. And as result of big trust to this (human) interpretations, as they are been "empowered" by God, members thinking about JHVH as "perfect timekeeper" of His prophecy, but in fact of this "WT prophecy". And at the end, as normal expectation is this: JW's living in delusion of hope aka expectation how it is normal to have particular expectation from JHVH to be One who will fulfill human expectations as His own goal.

Mentally diseased (mental illness) Why would one religious magazine (with non medical educated authors of article) using Medical Terminology for dealing/clash with dissenters, opponents, members who are in "awakening mode"? What sort of "credentials" this people have (authors of article) who making medical expertise and conclusions about other people mental health? How they making "spiritual " observations for purpose of bringing "medical" diagnose? Or "medical" observation for "spiritual" diagnose"? @Outta Here speaking about, JW.org is reflecting the Bible's view.... and made pictures with madness of prophets. What ex JW or apostates or mentally ill JW/ex JW talking about self as "prophet"?? WT Society is known as exactly showing such idea about self as "prophet for JHVH". This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses . . . Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1972, p. 197). Well please, what reason we have to believe in such Organization who think about self to be individual - group prophet/s and in same time giving label to other people around them that they are mentally ill? In what ever context you want to put it, Literal or Spiritual. Definition of mental illness : any of a broad range of medical conditions (such as major depression, schizophrenia, obsessive compulsive disorder, or panic disorder) that are marked primarily by sufficient disorganization of personality, mind, or emotions to impair normal psychological functioning and cause marked distress or disability and that are typically associated with a disruption in normal thinking, feeling, mood, behavior, interpersonal interactions, or daily functioning - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mental illness

Yes, but this what you are talking about, going to theology, philosophy, interpretations ..... and not to science in strict way of what science is. Something that scientist can prove with scientific methods.

Do you go to doctor who "know how" to help in your sickness, but have no diploma for that? Do you go on his/their door because of your endless trust to people who proclaim that they can heal people, or you go there because he finished some education? There is people who can help without having certificate. But when he help you in wrong way you have no basis for asking him to "pay" you because he make your life or health to be problematic. You choose him to do job he is not qualified for. In this matter, JW members have big trust on human who take a lead. Well, you can, of course show trust to both group, with and without diploma. If that how it is with elders, only words of other people that this elder can be trusted without question, similar way of logic you can use on people (candidates for baptism) who have to proof how their deeds and intentions are good, too. Yes, this i like to hear. :)) So, this old ferry tails about how, after period of how congregants voting for elders, was also another period and that is, when holy spirit appointing elders, we now have that "biblical pattern" how in fact only legitimate way is when "traveling representatives" doing this. Well: 1) voting is wrong way 2) spirit is wrong way What are all those elders in and from period of 1) and 2) ? What are their "credentials", how much value have their spiritual service if way of appointing them was been administrative error of WT Society? Errors made by voters and by spirit, who have illegally done something for what they have no authorization? And CO today have such authorization, :))) Who put them on that position of CO? Spirit, voters, GB, or previous CO? :)))

That is why clergy in some churches can show evidence for what they know. Some Diploma. :)) Elders have no diploma or prove for credential. Do they have to answer on 80 or 180 questions to be accepted as servants. No, all they need is to be appointed by GB and Spirit or by CO. You would know better how it works today. This process is different. JW's are merely volunteers. All of them, GB, elders, members. Volunteers not need to have evidence for education level, or some formal degree for qualification in some field. They learning while walking. Somebody told/teach them in few sentences what they have to do, and that is that. :))) That is voluntarism. You don't need special knowledge, but wish, desire and good will to do something for free for other people benefit. As for baptism, person need to meet much less than 80 questions: - Do you believe? Do you repent? Do you love? Do you have faith? Perhaps, when Jesus speaking about knowing God as fundamental for eternal life, he meant on few basic points: love, faith and trust as evidences that God looking for to see in mind and heart of individual.

We have, it seems two sort of "burden" or "yoke". And two ways how implement this in person?s life. We have Jesus' "burden" he ask us to carry. And we see "Organizational" way of implementations of principles set by Jesus. Organization as such have need to broaden administrative system of ruling over people. If person want to candidate for some job, he have to give his CV and answer on questions by boss. If you want to be as volunteer member in one religious organization, not to be paid for work you done in own name, but under elders leadership, you are also obligated to be guided by some rules. It seems logical, BUT we have here some spiritual moments that make this 80 questions as human invention not empowered by spirit. In example of man who, after some time/hours of talking with Philip said, See, here is water! And this example is not unique in Bible.