Srecko Sostar

7 hours ago, Ray Devereaux said:

I don’t believe Russell had the power to replace “hell” with “death in Armageddon” as indicated. He did have the power to foresee the mistakes of other religions enough to call his group “Bible Students” to a nondenominational church of Christ.

* bold words mine

To some extent, other individual has a power over us in a measure we give him a power over us. In some other cases we can't do almost nothing about that. 

7 hours ago, Ray Devereaux said:

on what you mean by rebellious coming from an ex-member of any church?

In continue, about what was said about power, is issue of rebellion or resistance. Russell was not, as books say about him (WT publications),  satisfied with his own religion and doctrines. In other words, his religion and doctrines of his religion had power over him and he didn't like that. For what ever reason he had. He showed rebelling and resistance to all that what made him unsatisfied, unhappy, unanswered ...etc. 

He has been in process of abandoning "old and bad" things and in same time looking for "new and better". He, in fact coming to be "an apostate", in context of what this word mean. A person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle.

In the eyes of his parents, Church and congregational members, he was, in general, viewed as "rebellious son" and as "apostate". Is that bad? 

7 hours ago, Ray Devereaux said:

He did have the power to foresee the mistakes of other religions enough to call his group “Bible Students” to a nondenominational church of Christ.

You say, and many say how Russell has not been, because of his action, rebellious and apostate. But on contrary, he had a power to go one level up, and he is considered, in WT Society and JW organization, as brave young man and truth seeker. But his past church was already  "had the truth". Why he wanted "truth above the truth"?? :)))

See, how  things are the same today with WT Society and JW organization and their members who leave "religion of their parents".  They are not "apostates" in context WT Society want to showed them (as bad and devil inspired individuals). They are "truth seekers"..... with various and different outcomes.  

45 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I think you need to study history - especially church history. Then you will understand how this fits in. Why argue about something you do not understand or do not have good knowledge of?

Partially you are right about my knowing church history.

But tell me, did i get it right if i say, how every Organized Religion, including WT Society and JW organization, doing everything to make obedient members who will not questioning doctrines and leadership, regardless of various and different doctrines that are specific for each of them (religion)?

If i am right in this perception and conclusion, than this is quite enough for/about "knowing church history". :))

16 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I see no evidence of the “new and better,

5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

...and so that they can rule without ANY accountability, with COMPLETE impunity .....

..... as no one understands, or will recognize the difference.

9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It would be nice if you could provide a preview of this. 

I see no evidence of the “new and better,” only an emphasis on demolishing what is. 

In fact, that is why JWs became JWs in the first place; they tired of the “new and better” promises that always turned out to be but empty words.

That is because i am not source or medium to provide you religious spiritual light you looking for. As ex member of your church i have been in position you are now. "New and better" coming from Organization of people who take a lead. And as we all know these men do err, they are imperfect and are not inspired. And they proves that on daily basis.

Here i will connect another comment:

6 hours ago, Ray Devereaux said:

Another place I can agree with tearing down the old house to build a new house is exactly what Russell did in his day. He decided to forgo his parent’s teachings and that of the ranking Christendom of his day to start from scratch to understand the bible as Jesus spoke of it to the first century Christian.

 

A revision to the view of the reformer movement but with a better understanding that is placed before today’s society.

Russell was "rebellious" and looking for something "new and better". And he find something of that in Adventist teachings. And he accepted something what was "new and better", in his eyes and thinking. Because that what was "new and better" for him already existed in another "false religion" he latter left because of disagreements with established structures and doctrines. 

And what Russell have done? He moved some "new and better Adventist's stuff" into his movement, updated some old thoughts, made some modification, brought some "new" ideas. When he found, how there is no "hell" in Bible, did he introduce "new and better"? If people around believe in hell and you say how hell not existing, is that "new"? Maybe to some degree for them, but in fact no. You just say, make claim how hell not existing and said something Opposite to first common idea.   

What was replacement for "hell"? Death in Armageddon. Excommunication from congregation. What was purpose of hell? To explain people how they have to be good and not make God displeased and angry. 

In both cases, in religion with "hell", and in religion without "hell", we have expressed need to keep members to be in "fear" of God (and of human who operate in the name of God, too). And here you have how with time Religion of any sort, even Russell's WT Society operate and have not "new and better", but working in same frame under different terminology and scene.  

Teaching flock to be good is common task to all religion. And teaching them to be loyal to church they belong is also not something new.

33 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is far far far easier—and more alluring—to tear down than it is to build up.

However, it is more noble to do the latter.

I can agree.

But, we all know also this. If you want to build new house on the same place where is old one, you have to do first step - tear down the old - and make place for new. 

Same is with ideology, doctrines, beliefs and faith. You have to tear down all what is old, poorly built and not good enough ... than there will be place (in our heads) to introduce new and better. 

Illustration with house/head is correct.  In verbatim situation perhaps you can choose some other place for building new house. But you can't replace own head with new head. :))) So, all battles are in our heads. Perhaps all what is received stay forever in some corner of our mind. But every old idea have to be disassembled into small pieces, into such small pieces that they can never be assembled again. 

47 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I do not consider myself old.... 

.... same for me. I am 58 and not consider self as old. What a deceiving :))))

37 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I think you have an issue with God

First i wish to tell is, thanks for private information you shared here.

But, we all have issue with God. Fallen angel and Adam were among first free will persons who showed some doubts about God. Even people, who showed many positive atributes in Jew or Christian context, had issue with God, too.

With such history, it would be simple to say how humans always and all the time had some sort of issues with God. And how such relation and interaction could be called as "normal". Even in your experience you showed how you still love and helped your "apostate" brother despite knowledge and warning (by God and by Organization) that you have "to cut" all bonds to such person who willfully and with stubborn rejecting God's help through you and elders and congregation. By this, you also belong to group of people who have sort of "issue with God". You are not able, or not willing "to obey God's command" on this subject.

Does your behavior (feelings) proves how you respect or disrespect:

-Your conscience  

-God

-Bible

-Congregation

-Elders 

-Family bonds

-Humanity

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

He was a smartypants.  Too smart for his own shoes - like many apostates. 

too smart = apostate :))))

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

After rejecting Jehovah he lost his girlfriend in death and many other things went wrong in his life because he no longer had Jehovah's protection.

..... cause - effect .  In other words do you tell us how God was involved in his girlfriend death? And how he also suffer because God not protecting him any more? 

The last WT publication i can recall on issue of God's protection is explanation how God will not protect his servants as individuals but as a group. 

This i found as "issue". Because "the group" is made from "the individuals". No individuals = no group. Russia is example. Does God protecting now, Russian JW brotherhood as a Group or as a Individuals?

5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Old Soviet Union

5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Let's say a dedicated, "sworn" person, such as a Police Officer, breaks the rules about taking bribes.

This is less serious "sin". Much more worst would be for him and his family, if he talk something against or opposite to official Ideology.

In that sense, i think how, family members would be forced to "shun" and cut family bonds with him, as in JW scenario.   

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

" lawlessness".  

 

Whether is this applicable to singular or plural entity, we are all in danger.  

10 hours ago, Andre Plamondon said:

Who is the wiseman?  A wiseman is one who has wisdom, “Christ is formed in you”  This is not to have a belief, this is to have incarnated that; to be a wise man.  In Greek terms it would be Pnuematikos:  to be one with the Spirit, to have the Spirit, to have Christ.

... to be one with the Spirit, to have the Spirit,....

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-study-february-2017/who-is-leading-gods-people-today/

CAN YOU EXPLAIN?

In the first century and today, how have those taking the lead among God’s people been . . .

empowered by holy spirit?

assisted by angels?

guided by God’s Word?

WT magazine assure readers how there is no space for idea of "to be inspired by Spirit" for individual or group of people In the first century and today.

They using terminology "empowered by spirit" and making distinction from expression "inspired by spirit". To be empowered is not the same as inspired, as they explained this context about First Congregation and today JW organization as Legal Successor  of 1st century Christianity, in this WT study edition magazine.

Well, WHO is the wiseman? :))

On 10/25/2019 at 7:11 AM, Arauna said:

The Pope is signing an agreement next year with the other abrahamic religions.... Judaism and Islam..... one united religion. Here is the rub:  jesus Christ has been totally removed from the agreement....... great!  ......The 'man of lawlessness'  is being exposed.

quote from source: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1990083

² It is vital that we identify this man of lawlessness. Why? Because he is intent on undermining our good standing with God and our hope of eternal life. How? By getting us to abandon the truth and to believe falsehoods in its place, thus diverting us from worshiping God “with spirit and truth.” (John 4:23) It is evident from his actions that this particular lawless element opposes God and his purposes, as well as his dedicated people......So the expression “man of lawlessness” must stand for a body, or class, of people......⁸ Who are they? The evidence shows that they are the body of proud, ambitious clergymen of Christendom, who over the centuries have set themselves up as a law unto themselves. This can be seen by the fact that there are thousands of different religions and sects in Christendom, each with its clergy, yet each conflicting with the others in some aspect of doctrine or practice. This divided state is a clear evidence that they do not follow God’s law. They cannot be from God. .....

⁹ Thus, this lawless one is a composite person: the religious clergy of Christendom. ......

⁰ History shows that those in this man of lawlessness class have displayed such pride and arrogance that they have actually dictated to rulers of the world. Under the pretext of the doctrine of ‘the divine right of kings,’ the clergy have claimed to be the essential intermediary between the rulers and God. They have crowned and dethroned kings and emperors and have been able to turn the masses for or against rulers......

This explanation is from 1990 w90 2/1 pp. 10-14 . But it is older than 1990 article.  

WT Society have no power over GB as Gerrit Lösch explained in his deposition to US Court. But GB have power over anointed individuals and over elders class and over members too. GB explained that they are essential as mediators or substitution to Christ between people and JHVH.  To keep in relationship with "our Savior, God," the "great crowd" needs to remain united with the remnant of spiritual Israelites." Watchtower 1979 Nov 15 p.27 Benefiting from "One Mediator Between God and Men"

We are aware of teaching that WT Society said clearly how FDS is GB. Other people who thinking about self as remnant of spiritual Israelites have no significance and important role to "great crowd", because GB is class who guide people to safety and New World. By such idea, GB taking same blame as "Christendom Clergy".

As we all accepting, Bible is two edge sword. Because of that, all what WT Society using against so called Christendom, can be used against them and GB. Clear and simple :)))  

49 minutes ago, Andre Plamondon said:

Cor 3:14 but their minds were dulled (or thoughts blinded) For to this present day, the same veil remains unlifted when the old covenant is read because it is taken away only by means of Christ ¹⁵  In fact, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies upon their hearts.¹⁶  But when one turns to Jehovah the veil is taken away ¹⁷  Now Jehovah is the Spirit and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom

One sort of message, advice, i see in this verses. To not reading old covenant and Moses, because of result - veil remains unlifted. In verbatim understanding, OT should be separated from NT and be putted in museum. :)))

Again, verses speaking about Spirit who give freedom. In Old Jew people example, that would mean "freedom from slavery to old covenant and Moses". 

But perhaps parable going further. Because, so called, new freedom in Christ can produce new sort of slavery too. As in case of Old Jew and Old Covenant, we always have some "human factor", some people who taking roles of mediators, leaders, and governing bodies. Reality that is visible in Christians churches of all sorts proves that fact. Even the "only true religion" aka WT Society and JW organization is under same sort of slavery ... slavery to human interpretations, false doctrines, err instructions and lawyers policies about religious and spiritual issues.

Is there something "new" under the sun?  

On 10/26/2019 at 9:54 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

OTHER nasty habits.

...for example, not washing hands after toilet.... 

Page 30.... and we still opposing each other :))))

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

level of body heat

I guess, 15-30 kg of hot bricks would give enough heat :)))

As general view, men prefer young and beautiful women :)) 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

in David's case it was others in the royal entourage making the choice for him.

... yes, perhaps others who have been long enough with David understand what would/will make him happy :))

1 hour ago, Sean Migos said:

Are you seriously going to attempt to include bible times with the strict laws imposed by modern nations in order to persuade in some cases third world nations that accept child marriage as a standard of life?

I have no need "to persuade" anyone on  anything about bible times and our standard of life. We have some written history about what we make some comments, talking, arguing, giving different perspective on same events, making critics or questioning why .....etc. 

Without books, TV or internet we would not knew nothing about first, second or third world and how people living. Or to make questions why they living that way and not by our way.

51 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Best I could guess, she was about 32 years younger than him.

What are your guess about age difference in David and Shulamite girl case? 

Abishag (Hebrew: אבישג‎ Avishag) was a beautiful person of Shunem, who, when brought to David, was a na'arah which is a girl between 12 and 12.5 years yet too young to bear children.[1][2], According to the Hebrew Bible, she was chosen to be a helper and servant to kingDavid in his old age.[3] Among Abishag's duties was to lie next to David and pass along her animal heat and vigor ("they put covers on him, but he could not get warm"),[4], while not having sex with him (1 Kings 1:4).[5] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abishag

1 When King David was very old, he could not keep warm even when they put covers over him. ² So his attendants said to him, “Let us look for a young virgin to serve the king and take care of him. She can lie beside him so that our lord the king may keep warm.”  Then they searched throughout Israel for a beautiful young woman and found Abishag, a Shunammite, and brought her to the king. ⁴ The woman was very beautiful; she took care of the king and waited on him, but the king had no sexual relations with her. - 1. King

- young virgin

-beautiful young woman

- woman was very beautiful

It is significant to notice, in context that @Foreigner put all this conversation about "age difference and sexual attraction to younger or older children (minors) and to adult young people", how Old Israel Nation have no problem with this issue. And Bible said nothing against this "preferences, affinity or appetite ". I said Bible, because many JW's, as @Foreigner , want to explain us how something is "wrong" because Bible said so or because WT Society said so.

Well, obviously, what is wrong in one social group and time period, it is not in other group and time. 

51 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

don't know why they had to use real jewelry anyway.

.... good question. Human Tendency to show what he/she has? ..and other have not ?

1 hour ago, Foreigner said:

..... like a pedophile would by looking for excuses to say it's not wrong. The same can be applied to anyone with a huge age difference.

What do you recommending about "age difference" ?? 

.... also, have to add this: you have weird and deformed "age mathematics".

22 hours ago, Foreigner said:

What you are saying, You want a world with NO authority. You are advocating this system be run in chaos. You prefer to see humanity as it was before the flood. Check Please!

Are this words, your respond on my comment, or is this your respond to someone else comment? :)))

Very confusing. What does Concept of Private Property in Jew Culture and in Culture of Nations of that period of time, have with "Authority" of our time period? Term "Secular authority" coming from NT period. Do you point on such "authority"? What "authority" do you have in mind? Christian congregation "authority"? Or secular "authority"? Or ...Patriarhhical sort of "authority", etc?

This last sort of "authority" in patriarchal societies of old time, with strong echoes in our time too, consider female humans as "private property". Mosaic Law gave instructions in case of rape of female who are not promised, who are promised or rape of woman who is married. In all cases, we see how  in Biblical times, a sexual assault against another man's daughter, wife, or betrothed could only be a theft of that man's sexual property, rather than an offense against the woman herself. Deuteronomy 22:28-29, saying that the punishments for rape have to do not with compassion or trauma to the woman herself but with honor, tribal purity, and a sense that a used woman is damaged goods. 

Male and female persons in the past was not equal. Their dignity and value are not in same level despite fact how both of them was made in God's Image. Perhaps Mosaic Law was "perfect" for those Cultures and Time Period. And as such gave to female persons "the best" in such circumstances. 

What details of such old views on "women" are still living today in WT Society and JW organization? 

Not all "authority" is good authority! Maybe, we should ask: Why we haven't better "authority"? 

It is notable to have in mind how WT Society is patriarchal organization/institution. Male members are in privileged position and above women. Women and children are in submissive position and have to show obedience to male members, male ministerial servants and male elders. 

Also it is notable how most of child molesters in JW organization are males members (perhaps few female).

In such context, all male members, with or without position of leadership, bearing every responsibility. Because of privileged position of males in congregations, that is religious, social and cultural basic for hierarchical system inherited from Old Testament period and Old Jew Society. 

In Old Jew Society, based on religious doctrines, Women especially (and Female Children) are Objects and Private Property. That is visible from some Law aspects on rape issue and Slavery issue in general, and about Slavery in Military Battles or in case of the conquest of the land. In such battles all males was killed and all females (children and virgin women) that looked fine, attractive and sexually desirable, to male Israel soldiers, was taken as prey, war price, and finished in Israel as slave (for pleasure too), wife, or whatever seems right to Israelites. 

Yes, males inside WT Society and JW organization who are on higher position and creating Regulation and Policies are more responsible than other males. But because of special treatments males have, just because been born as male, all males inside WT JW need to understand how they need, must to bear more consequences because of patriarchy system which was promoted and bred.    

58 minutes ago, divergenceKO said:

other peoples garbage.

???? 

When children suffer, you have brave to call that as a "garbage"?

Maneuvers made by JW lawyers under WT Society commands and directives is attempt to defending International  Conglomerate Company with "religious" based "garbage" argumentation. 

7 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

Point being, the text you just submitted can be applied to you, and witness.

Yes, to all of us :)) 

5 minutes ago, Allen_Smith said:

Who do you think God would pick, sad people like you, or a person that his heart is in the sole service of God?

about sad people:

On hearing this, Jesus told them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

about sole service of God:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

3 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

There is a good reason why opposers tend to give you a positive vote.

And that is?  Can it be because they see in you exactly how they feel in their hearts?

What is wrong with that? What is wrong with that if somebody expressed in words what some other person was not been in capacity to put in such or similar way, yet. And also, positive vote can be given because they already feels that way, no matter of time when somebody gave particular comment.

Can it be, the people here have a disingenuous motive and falsely portray themselves as a light, when indeed their hearts are in darkness?

Well, well. Is  this general rule that including only other people, or is this applicable and to you too? Because you can't offer any guarantee for yourself, not in "real" reality, and especially not in this "virtual" reality. :))  

On 10/14/2019 at 6:55 AM, Arauna said:

Watch some EU proceedings in its parliament with the old Belgian and Dutch leaders and you will see what I mean.  

This is what i meant. You connect old age of Belgian and Dutch leaders with some proceedings in Parliament.