Srecko Sostar

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I'll put off trying because I hadn't figured out how to extract the topic from all the other comments

Conversation is like net. We building issue and upgrading it with many details on main structure. At first it looked as they are not connected with first subject of title that gathered us to speak. But everything we mentioned in short or long way, talking about bigger, whole picture we all looking from various (different and opposite) angles and standpoints. 

Think how this is instance of what is happened here with Letter. Because, how would you explain "big jump" from main issue about JW opposers to less important, or  perhaps trivial conversation in comparison to main subject, about what Jesus did look like :)). Our friend @James Thomas Rook Jr. had put green frog-like creature. This Green remake is parody under question about how person in question would look in some artistic mind ............................ or how "opposers" look like ...to some JW's  :)))))

3 hours ago, Anna said:

I blame Witness.

:))))) now you sound like Adam. He blamed Eve :)))

Word by word, little by You, little by  @Arauna   on 1940's, racist, time frame and similar... what do you expect from  @Witness and me ... how should/would we react? :)))  

Supreme Court denied Petition made by WT Society.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/search.aspx?filename=/docket/docketfiles/html/public/19-40.html

11 hours ago, Witness said:

They could be influenced by the circumstances governing the world?  

I will highlighted in red color some parts of text, and add some comment... and apologize for too much text :)) 

12 hours ago, Witness said:

Judge Rutherford's Letter to Hitler

Translation of the letter sent by Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, German Branch, Wachtturmstraasse 1-19, Magdeburg/Germany to Hitler.

Excerpts:

"In the very same manner, in course of the recent months the board of directors of our Society not only refused to engage in propaganda against Germany, but has even taken a position against it. The enclosed declaration underlines this fact and emphasizes that the people leading in such propaganda (Jewish businessmen and catholics) also are the most rigorous persecutors of the work of our Society and ist board of directors. This and other statements of the declaration are meant to re pudiate the slanderous accusation, that Bible Researchers are supported by the Jews."

10 hours ago, Foreigner said:

How did you see Jesus when you were young?

10 hours ago, Foreigner said:

Instead of sarcasm, try looking at the picture posted by that individual, and the time frame it indicates.

How did WT Society see Nazi German period, when Society were "young"? How looked time frame for Society?

10 hours ago, Anna said:

scholars analysis

10 hours ago, Anna said:

One of the latest forming yet best known nineteenth-century chiliastic communities was the Earnest Bible Students, later to become known as the Jehovah's Witnesses,

10 hours ago, Anna said:

In history there have been variations in the chiliastic expectations, but they primarily have appeared in times of oppression of Christian minorities. Similar phenomena are known from other religions,

10 hours ago, Anna said:

A religious interpretational model can be found in the eschatological beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses. They saw Hitler's Reich as the demonic advancement of Satan and his army. Their resistance was a part of Jehovah's battle with Satan, and they viewed themselves as Jehovah's apostles, witnesses, and disciples. God had given them the mission to resist the Nazis. Already the apocalypse (the Revelation of John) had predicted the battle against wickedness, and now they saw, in the war against the War against Nazism, the fulfillment of Bible prophecy. They did not see the persecution against them as divine justice, but as the final battle of Armageddon before the heralded thousand-year reign. It was a battle of the righteous against the Antichrist and against "his" proclaimed thousand-year reign of darkness.

In this scholar analysis, author saw how JW Organization and members had WRONG Scripture interpretations, expectations, doctrine  and beliefs in this, so called, Time Frame. As few times before and after this time point, too.  By using this Book analysis, i would conclude how Spiritual Leaders of WT Society in that period of time (and today, too) had been led by Time Frame and own understanding, more than by Bible, Spirit, Angel, Prayer etc.

10 hours ago, Anna said:

J. F. Rutherford, the American president of the Watch Tower Society, on 9 February 1934 wrote a letter to Reichskanzler Adolf Hitler which opened with these words:

Mr. Chancellor,

This letter is both a friendly notification and a warning about things that will be of the utmost importance for your well-being. You will find that it is in your own interest to read this letter carefully. During the last ten years the leaders and the people of Germany have got to know through wide distribution of literature that God's Kingdom has come and that his King Christ Jesus will establish righteous government for the earth to the blessing of its peoples. The warning goes out that all those who stand up against God and his Kingdom will be destroyed by the Lord in Armageddon. Your government has disregarded this warning.(n18)

10 hours ago, Anna said:

This letter is a key document because it outlines the program and the later actions of Jehovah's Witnesses in the Third Reich. The German leadership of the Watch Tower Society knew about the letter but not the general membership. The repeated mention of the coming battle of the end, a major tenet of the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses, made clear to all Witnesses what to expect. As a message directly addressed to Hitler it is also made clear that he could be seen as the central figure, the Antichrist of the Apocalypse.

Well, according to this, German leadership knew details from Letter and general membership Not. And how would You feel if somebody call you "Antichrist" and that you will be destroy in the "coming battle of the end" if not kneel down to Jesus Representatives on Earth aka WT Society? 

Again, WT Society made collective atmosphere of "hysteria" about how end of the world is here, so why not to give your life as member, because tomorrow you will be resurrected? Time Frame, again. But this is Inside Work of how so called Time Frame have to look if you are JW. 

10 hours ago, Anna said:

The passages quoted from the Declaration create the impression that it was primarily a justification, an overture toward the Nazi system, and that it was influenced by anti-Jewish attitudes. This, however, is a falsification of the facts. From a secular point of view, the document was a "sermon" directed to the addressee, Reichskanzler Hitler himself. It was a clear dissociation from the powers of this world but it took for granted that surely even Hitler had good intentions, that even he must have wanted to do good. But it also proclaimed that if this should prove not to be so, then the Reichskanzler and Fuhrer of the German people belonged to the kingdom of Satan. Hitler would then become an enemy of Jehovah and his Witnesses. These straightforward statements left the Reichskanzler with only two possible conclusions: either the Declaration was the product of the collective imaginations of some crazed religious group or, it was, in its mad boldness, a declaration of war from a David against a Goliath.

Again, to copy paste:  These straightforward statements left the Reichskanzler with only two possible conclusions: either the Declaration was the product of the collective imaginations of some crazed religious group or, it was, in its mad boldness, a declaration of war from a David against a Goliath.

Here we see, how this book's "worldly" perspective was clearly said what JW members do not see. Declaration was product of one or of both facts. That JW was in "collective imagination" and that they "declare war to Hitler". 

10 hours ago, Anna said:

While the powerful Roman Catholic Church had entered into a gentleman's agreement with the dictator in the form of the concordat, here a small Christian faction was blowing the trumpet of Jericho and demanding, in sermon-style and in all earnestness, that Hitler should subject himself completely to the will of Jehovah. In turn the church promised that it would then maintain its neutrality, as it did in all other states. And although Hitler was still addressed in politely neutral terms, this small group did not hesitate to call its business partner, the Roman Catholic Church, a tool of "the great enemy Satan."

10 hours ago, Anna said:

The passages from the Declaration which the churches today single out for quotation cannot rightfully be termed antisemitic or anti-Jewish; rather, they are anti-American or perhaps even anti-world. The polemic against the Anglo-American world power with its big business enterprises built up by "commercial" Jews must be seen in its entire context, and, in judging the German version of the Declaration it must be kept in mind that it is a translation from the American original.

10 hours ago, Anna said:

It is also interesting to note the emphatic statement from Jehovah's Witnesses that they "have no criticism of any honest religious teacher"; what they criticize is the "wrongful religious influence in the political affairs of the nation." It cannot even be said that they criticized the teachings of other churches: "We [the Jehovah's Witnesses] do not object to or try to hinder anyone's teaching or believing what he desires."

Really? Is this true? In what Time Frame is this statement true and in what Time Frame it is a lie?

10 hours ago, Anna said:

If Hitler ever read this Declaration personally, the result must certainly have been one of his historical fits of rage. According to the Witnesses, one particular story has it that upon reading the Declaration Hitler exclaimed: "This brood must be exterminated from Germany."(n20)

10 hours ago, Anna said:

It is possible to see the Declaration as absurd or ridiculous from a secular point of view in its completely unrealistic judgment of the political situation.

WT Society saw political situation of the world in absurd imagination of Own Time Frame.

10 hours ago, Anna said:

CONCLUSION

The worldview of the Jehovah's Witnesses did not conform to the logic of the "rational human mind"--if it did, the obvious conclusion would have been that one cannot resist Hitler's dictatorship and that a non-violent resistance on the part of a small religious group would lead to its elimination. It was the "logic of absolute faith" of a biblical-fundamentalist Christian group that made possible this resistance based on faith.

All credit we can give to those JW who resist the "evil",  even if they done that with lack of rational human mind. Other people also resist the evil, passively too. Some other had fight against evil and win it (temporary) and that is why this biblical-fundamentalist Christian group  not ended in elimination. Or if you want it in this way: God allowed such outcome. What ever that means, because in JW terminology "allowed" doesn't mean how God approved or justified something. 

Are we talking about:

"new" light,

"changed" light

or about drinking too much"alcohol"?

3 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

Does this mean Jesus was wrong to commission the apostles? Does this mean Jesus was wrong to appoint the 70 men? Do you “reject” the words in scripture about leaders? Did God’s commission stop just because you don’t like a certain group? Are other Christians following the letter of Christ instructions and God’s commands?

In answering on this and many more, we can use words; Yes, No, I don't know, You don't now, I am right, You are wrong .... but "the best" answers are on JW official  web sites ................

3 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

I hope you understand the difference between the Bible Students and JW's.

........ :))) from Bible Students era till now.

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

so why expect more from the JW artist who drew the picture?

Artists are people who need inspiration for their works. In the absence of divine inspiration, the inspiration of this worldly world is also good, enough for making pictures. :))

2 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

The  Org under the direction of JW's

If by Org you mean WT Society (American Company established in 19th century ) with every Corporations that is connected with Jehovah Witnesses people (all sisters or subsidiary companies, perhaps someone who knows better can explain what is legal relations between all this Corporations) and if by JW's you mean all baptized brotherhood (children, sisters and brothers of all ages) than you wrongly made conclusion how Second Class giving direction to and guiding First Class (including GB, who working and sleeping and eating in WT Society buildings and, as they said are not WT employees but they are, reading from your idea, are elected by Brotherhood not to Guide and Lead JW's but to be Body of Something). :))

2 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

By this, are you saying; you know how people felt

On 10/4/2019 at 10:22 PM, divergenceKO said:

I would say, neither did Rutherford. Just because he wrote how he felt doesn’t mean it was made to be a doctrine.

Sorry, but you started to speak about Rutherford's feelings. :)) (bold red letter is mine) 

2 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

I would refer to the corrections I made with your understanding of the Org.

I will accept your corrections if your corrections are correct :))

6 hours ago, John Houston said:

We know those 'judged' at Armageddon will not return from the dead ever.

I am not sure about this. Where in a Bible was clearly said that people died in Armageddon have no hope for resurrection?  

In WT explanation, Adam and Eve death was not like death of all people after them. Adam and Eve not died in Armageddon.

Perhaps, when Revelation book talking about Second Death and Lake of Fire, it is some base to talking about no resurrection hope. But Armageddon has not described in Bible as Final Death, Second Death or Lake of Fire. 

Second Death is obviously something that happened to Adam and Eve. Teaching is how they will not be resurrected. Also, according to WT  interpretation on Revelation verses, at the and of 1000 years there will be Final Test and Second Death for those not passed the test. Even "Normal Death" will be "hurled" into  the Lake of Fire and died there. But even with that fact, death is eternal, because God is in power to destroy life whenever ever He found how that is justified. 

In my opinion, if God not want to resurrect some people from the past until today, that would mean how these people not died just as result of Adam sin, but how such death is already categorized as Second Death. By that logic, Armageddon is not and will not be, unique and only place and time from where and when is not possible to come to life again.

Noah Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Jew's Holy Wars and some other examples are examples where Organization gave interpretations on issue of death and resurrection. 

If Armageddon, as you said, is Final Judgement with death sentence, than previous and future (after Armageddon) judgements are what? Final or Temporary judgements?    

Does Revelation book has Literal or Allegorical meanings? How you decide what is Literal and what is not?

9 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

Just because he wrote how he felt doesn’t mean it was made to be a doctrine.

Well, by this you telling us how "his feeling" about something, he put on paper and then, he or his friends, came to idea to spread around the world "his feeling" with help of religious publications in purpose to teach people about Words of God. ?? They (WT Society) claim how printing and publishing publications is for that purpose, to spread "God's word" around the globe to educate people .... with Rutherford's feelings and feelings of his friends ??!! 

9 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

It was meant to be inspirational.

Hold a minute please. For a very long, long time WT Society claims how not one person in Organization and nothing published in/by WT Society is not "inspired by God". And now this statement of your want to show us, how because God not inspired his people, we need some individuals/people (Rutherford and others) who will inspire other people. But you are brave to say in responding to @Witness how we are instruments inspired by evil:

9 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

How can this not be applied to you or Srecko, Matthew and any other opposer? You have just answered yourself with the embodiment of bidding Satan's work.

:))))) sad and fun

9 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

I suspect no one here has a good grasp of the Org history.

Of course! And because of that you are in the same group as many others who don't know much about WT history. Apologize, but your own recognition on this, disqualified you from jury of those who are able to recognize how good or poor is someone person's knowledge about WT history. :))

17 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

surviving Armageddon, and 2.) Resurrection of the dead.

I see no conflict.

If dead in Armageddon is not final, and if that means people can be resurrected because of special reasons God have, despite death in Armageddon, than ....  

12 hours ago, Witness said:

2 Thess 2:9-12:  The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, ¹⁰ and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. ¹¹ For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie ¹² and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

- He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives

Here i see how Organizational success in: Preaching work, Legal Battles, Worldwide Unity, Building Programs, Technology helped Education ...etc, .... and hard work to be Moral in all things, can be also "weapon" that serve the lie. Not one time, even WT Society publication emphasized, how it is not enough for individual, or whole groups of people, to be nice and honest, moral people, not to lie, steal, kill, etc., or to even have faith in God, but how is most important to worship Him in acceptable way.

... they refused to love the truth and so be saved.  This is very intrigue. How is possible that people, like JW members, refusing to love the truth, when they are so sure how they Have The Truth. They have the truth? This can go to philosophy and some metaphysics. Is it "Truth" some thing that we can to "posses"? Obviously it is inside WT Society. They can "materialize" some supposed "truth" into textual shape of some publication (books or/and magazines). If you get this publication and accept message, than you are in "possesion" of the so called truth. And after some time this "truth" can be replaced with another "truth"( in same manner you replacing old curtain with new one on your window). In means how so called "first truth" came to be "thing" that can be physically put aside or even destroyed. That is how "ownership" is working. Because this sort of "the truth" has not came from God, but it is human Product. If some individual is Creator of something (like "truth" in this case) he is entitled to "posses" it, to sell it, to destroy it.

Here we see difference about who is ownership of something. Human can not "posses" God's Truth. Human can only "posses" own truth and playing with it as they wish.   

Well, we came now to this part of 2 Thess: For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie .  What more you need to be on wrong way, than powerful delusion (send by no one else but that God who you, or JW in this subject, want to worship) This is something to get strong headache. You put your trust in God who sends powerful delusion on you because you are wrongly made conclude how you love the truth, but on contrary, you love your own created picture of image of truth.  

Is there any hope? :))

20 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

I would offer my home for the same reason.

That is nice and praiseworthy . But, i guess how you would not make Religious Doctrine about your sense of hospitality.

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

If you belong to a golf club and break the rules you may get expelled from the group......

That part is clear to me. 

What is not the same/similar in this illustration, if we go to compare golf club member and JW member?

I suppose that golf club member will say "Hello" to ex-golf club member on the street or will go to coffee together. :))

You all know the fact how I am ex-JW member. But many JW members on this forum (and some in my home town) communicate with me despite "official shunning rule". Perhaps to many of you it is easier to have virtual contacts with ex-JW's, and maybe giving you some feeling of "proper distance" because of this sort of communication or because we didn't have personal previous contacts as JW members. Or, you looking in different way on some JW who was dfd for adultery in comparison to some who left congregation by own will because of doctrinal disagreements, etc.

Well, when golf club (or school) expelled member (or pupil) from institution, they can feel some sort of animosity or disappointment or even angry on him, but majority of them will not treat him as JW's doing with theirs ex-members.

17 hours ago, Arauna said:

OCD 

Perhaps you are medical expert, or working in that sector, but i think how fact that someone is ex-JW can't be connected with  OCD.

In my understanding, this mental state (OCD) does not come as consequence, result of belonging to some particular group.

On other side, belonging to some particular group can result that individual in that group is under power of manipulation and deception ...to believe in  false, deceiving things.

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

It is not the same thing.   We do not expel people from the area they are living in or deny them a living. 

On 9/28/2019 at 5:36 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Of course, it is sad and crazy to shun people because they changed their standpoint, perspective on life or religion.

But (almost) every social group doing exactly this same thing. Even "the most religiously advanced and spiritual mature group" as JW members are, doing the same thing. :))

As you can see, i made accent with word "shun" on custom of JW org. Shunning is usual practice inside JW org.

But we are also aware of some practice when JW's ask dfd member to live the house (not area). Various Gradation of "expelling people" because of religious (and other) reasons is visible in many social groups.  

8 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

What benefit would this type of worldly view provide?

Wording with "worldly View" about JW Club like this is not right way to describe what Human doing, whether they are JW members or not. Human interest is to be curios about many things. 

8 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

Does this mean those that are insiders corrupt the good standard of conduct that is, Bible knowledge not opinion, and Christian understanding, not speculation. The only thing rendered here so far.

How is possible that you read this from my comment? I just made accent how need for questioning, asking, and state of confusing about some issues is normal for those that are "inside". 

@JW Insider  i have read your post from September 23. To me it seems how all is about those who are "inside" :))

21 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

On 9/27/2019 at 10:30 PM, Witness said:

The interview with J.F. Rutherford that appeared
in the San Diego Sun, March 15, 1930

Interesting opinions on a subject those who wrote these pieces weren’t that familiar with scripture.

I think how we don't need to have high expectations from San Diego Sun reporter to be "familiar" with Scripture. But that is of no surprise, because Judge Rutherford showed lack of "familiarity" with Scripture too, when he made plans to build Beth-Sarim.

"He that speaketh evil of his brother, judgeth his brother; speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law" - James 4

I would go a little further with meaning of this verse you used, and not with obvious verbatim understanding about "not judging other people". Wording "The Law" have wider meaning and not just God's command about what is forbidden and what is allowed to do. "The Law" is in fact entire content of Bible in which is reflection of God's thoughts, wisdom, prophets, lessons, His will, past and future. 

In that context of wider picture about Word He gave in Bible, i would say how misinterpretation made by anyone, or in this example by WT Society, and particularly by 3rd President of WT, "Judge Rutherford", who gave wrong meaning to Bible verses, we see how he has done exactly what you emphasized is bad. Judge Rutherford is that one who "judged the law" with his absolutely false proclamation (if you want, read this as apostate or perhaps demonic inspired revelation) about "Ancient Princes" who will soon be resurrected and come to be his guest in Beth-Sarim. What is the point:

1)  he "judged the law" by giving false meaning to words of God.

2)  he (and other under his influence) "judged his brothers" who were not accepted his teachings, in that period.  

Conclusion we can make today is similar. If GB "judging the law" with error, wrong, false interpretations and "judge you" if you are not willing to accept such ideology, than we have clear picture of  modern fulfillment on James 4. :))

12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The only one who says that it is impermissible for humans to err is you.

:))) Tom, The Only One who says you have to obey err is WT Society. 

Of course, it is sad and crazy to shun people because they changed their standpoint, perspective on life or religion.

But (almost) every social group doing exactly this same thing. Even "the most religiously advanced and spiritual mature group" as JW members are, doing the same thing. :))

2 hours ago, Witness said:

They know God, but they do not give him the honor that belongs to him, nor do they thank him. Instead, their thoughts have become complete nonsense, and their empty minds are filled with darkness.  Rom 1:21

Well, according to WT published evidence there are few "not faithful and discreet" reasons for San Diego Beth-Sarim house: 

1) Rutherford had a severe case of pneumonia ...

2) Under a doctor’s treatment, he went to San Diego, California, and the doctor urged him to spend as much time as possible there. 

3) Rutherford and his companion brothers have had religious fixation (persistent thought) about Kingdom and resurrection of past people based on fiction.

4) Explanation in magazine speaking how house fully served its purpose, but they must sell this too much expensive  "monument". We see how "Purpose" of that building has nothing with real spirituality as Jesus presented it, in his life time on Earth.  

5) Footnote in WT magazine said: At the time, it was believed ... This is one more prove in lines of proves, how WT Society and people who run this Organization, inventing teachings and doctrines. 

3 hours ago, Outta Here said:

Rather vacuous statement don't you think?

On 9/26/2019 at 5:11 PM, John Houston said:

but we are all human damaged in some way

https://web.archive.org/web/20060218124721/http://members.cox.net/tzdaniels/pictures/Time_March_31_1930.jpg

8 hours ago, Witness said:

10 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

The modern-day history of Jehovah’s Witnesses began with the forming of a group for Bible study in Allegheny, Pennsylvania, U.S.A., in the early 1870’s. At first they were known only as Bible Students, but in 1931 they adopted the Scriptural name Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Isa. 43:10-12) Their beliefs and practices are not new but are a restoration of first-century Christianity."  End quote

It is impressive how Russell and Rutherford doing "fine job" and have been fine example of Opposers to established religions of their period of time. Reasoning book calling this two men as restoration leaders, who Reinstated true doctrines and true religion as it was in 1st Century.

But, Jesus, as Opposer to Jew Religion established system, never mentioned that it would be needed to build house with olive trees for Ancient Princes in 1929. 

As curiosity, what would people say when those Ancient Princes would ask for women. Few for each of them?

What was the subject, content of Rutherford's effort to restore, with building house for ANCIENT princes? Christianity or Old/New Jew Kingdom? 

Comfortable San Diego accommodation  in 1929 is Type and Modern Warwick is Anti-Type for GB Princes :))  

What about 1931 period doctrines and practices? To what sort of "restoration" do they belong? To which period of time do they belong? To 1st Century Christianity time? If they do belong to that period, why they are not stayed as actual beliefs and practice of modern JW? If Modern JW of our time acting as Opposers to practices and beliefs of Restoration in Russell' and Rutherford' time .... than who is True Restorer of 1st century Christianity inside WT Society and JW org?    

Does this statement is really valid from today's standpoint?  "Their beliefs and practices are not new but are a restoration of first-century Christianity."  - Reasoning Book quote