Srecko Sostar

2 hours ago, Anna said:

This is why it's always better to call someone, rather than text 🙂.

Perhaps it will be a little expensive to call few of you across the Ocean :)) .... and with my slow mind and weak English .... i think i will stay on text :)))))

8 hours ago, Anna said:

Now if the direction proved wrong, then sure, we can blame the GB for the bad outcome, but it was STILL our choice and we have to get up and move on.

8 hours ago, Anna said:

It's a little bit more complex than that.

Yes Anna, it is always little bit more complex than we can say at a moment :))

If JW members dare to blame GB for wrong directions, they doing that in own head and thoughts perhaps shared with one or two trustful JW friends, not in comment at meetings.

On other hand, we all can testimony how GB not wish to take any blame for wrong instructions, but to spread "responsibility" on all who, supposedly, act in too much zeal for worship or how they misunderstand  some article and public talk. :)) 

It is complex, for sure. One of reason for that is Sort of Culture developed in Society/Organization (not unique problem in WT only but in other organizations too) how Higher Hierarchical Class is less "guilty" because God "appointed" them on/to position of lead and guide. 

17 hours ago, Ray Devereaux said:

No one can be held responsible for the action of another.

This go to sphere of hierarchy.

Parents are responsible to their minor children. Boss is responsible for his employee. Commander is responsible for his soldier. Church /leaders) is responsible for believers. 

Why? Because instructions, lessons, direction for acting, guiding etc. coming from those people who are in power and making influence on lower levels of group. In that sense GB carrying responsibility and have to bear effect/ outcome of decisions they have put on members as obligation that they must do or not to do.  

... and big, long  smile for great cartoon :)))) @James Thomas Rook Jr.

8 hours ago, Ray Devereaux said:

Can Jehovah witnesses be held liable for the personal action of a single person?

In general view, it is not reasonable to expect how some bro/sis in Honduras (or anywhere in the World) is/are responsible for act of JW lawyer or GB member who making more or less important decisions on activity of Organization.

8 hours ago, Ray Devereaux said:

Can they be held liable for the decision the Baptist church uses the building they bought?

The same as above :)

8 hours ago, Ray Devereaux said:

If they decide to worship Baal in that old Kingdom Hall, it is not the Watchtower position to condemn such false teachings.

:)) WT JW Organization position is to point with "finger" how some/many religious beliefs and practice of Christendom and other religions is/are "condemn" by Bible through WT JW organization publications and representatives and rank and file members.

8 hours ago, Ray Devereaux said:

I will remind the readers there is a vast difference between the Bible Student Zion Watchtower, and the Jehovah Witnesses Watchtower. Those differences must not be compared, since doctrine does differ.

This would be interesting to discuss :))

On 9/9/2019 at 5:14 AM, Arauna said:

JWs  therefore kept records of suspected child abuse cases since 1950s

It would be good to see Scriptural support for this practice and WT interpretation on possible Bible verse about recording and documenting sins of people for future purpose or for any kind of purpose.

On 9/9/2019 at 5:14 AM, Arauna said:

JWs  therefore kept records of suspected child abuse cases since 1950s  to be able to notify other congregations of this possibility when suspected perpetrators moved. JWs were the only organization to try to mitigate this problem and now they are "smeared" because of these records.

You here described one reason for WT collecting records of  one specific sin. Topic i put is not about one sort of sin only, but about "principle" that stand behind practice of "confession" and who are involved in this process. And as main question: what connecting Catholic priests and JW elders in this religious custom called "confession of sins"?

On 9/9/2019 at 5:14 AM, Arauna said:

As I said before - Congress should be blamed for all the loopholes in the laws in the past

It can be ... or it is, as you conclude. Do you think how this justifying  wrong decisions of priests and elders?

On 9/9/2019 at 5:14 AM, Arauna said:

Similarly, a person could confess to a priest and then go to a trial for murder. The priest was never called up to testify about the confession (he merely looked after the soul of the person) but the court proceedings had to produce  sufficient evidence to get a conviction.

If necessary - the state should change this "privacy of confession" law.

In this "principle", how priest have not obligation to testify about person's sin, does this also mean how elder must to keep silent about "confessed sin" of bro/sis and not spread this knowledge to other elders in congregation? I am not going in problematic on what sort of sin is about, we just discussing  about idea and mechanism of this in every day life of believers. 

On 9/9/2019 at 5:14 AM, Arauna said:

So - If someone started coming to our meetings and confessed a past sexual sin.

This is not real thing to aspect. Only few of many  candidate to baptism would be in such mental state to go and start talking about past sins, of every sort. Only few individuals (in specific mental  and psychical  state) would be burdened with past sins, who would try to find peace in confession (or not to stop feel guilt no matter of how much they repeating confession of sin/s). 

On 9/9/2019 at 5:14 AM, Arauna said:

 The state legislators of the past were clearly the ones who neglected putting solid laws in place and the law machine has been inadequate. 

Again, agree.  But, we all know how ordinary people expect more of those who are sitting on "spiritual adviser" (priest, elder) chair. So, again: Does imperfect "worldly" legislation gave justification to those individuals, groups and organizations, who made Bible Principles to be weak, imperfect and  also bad as secular law? 

9 hours ago, Ray Devereaux said:

Jehovah’s Witnesses do not consider or have considered a building as consecrated ground that it cannot be moved

Dedicated or consecrated (sorry for my lack of English language knowledge)  point is very clear. How would you look at your bro/sis in congregation  who decide to sell his house to people who openly said to him how house will be used for something that Bible teaching condemn or say it is bad? 

There is a saying how we always have a choice. Not only between two possibilities, but more than two. In this  trade with real estate WT JW organization have free will to choose buyer. And because of "spiritual" reasons to sell, even for lesser price, to somebody who will not promote"false teachings" :)))

As verbs the difference between consecrate and dedicate

 is that consecrate is to declare, or otherwise make something holy while dedicate is to set apart for a deity or for religious purposes; consecrate.

As adjectives the difference between consecrate and dedicate

 is that consecrate is consecrated; devoted; dedicated; sacred while dedicate is (obsolete) dedicated; set apart; devoted; consecrated.                  - source: https://wikidiff.com/consecrate/dedicate

Something is very  significant to notice. When teaching new members and old members about Idolatry and Things that are connected with paganism and false religion and similar, WT JW organization expect from members to Destroy all things that have "smell" of false religion or pagan custom. Not to sell, for example gold cross jewelry, and get money and buy food. No, not sale BUT to destroy!

And here and in other places, we see selling of "dedicated worship place for JHVH" TO RELIGION which is considered as false, demonic by GB and WT JW organization. Irony? Double standard? Or Money greed? :))  

The WT Society interprets that JW elders have the right not to disclose secrets to the police and to other government agencies regarding child abuse when members of the organization give them information, whether they are victims or perpetrators.

In this appeal, WT lawyers defend this right by invoking the Catholic Church and their clergy. In fact, although the WT Society and JWorg claim to have no priestly class as the Catholic Church, they do want the same privileges for their elders, before the bodies of the law, as Catholic priests do.

What is the doctrine in the Catholic Church regarding "confession"? What is the doctrine of the WT and JW Organization regarding "confession"?

The Catholic Church allows their priests to listen to the voluntary confessions of their believers and to give them comfort and forgiveness in the name of God as part of Christian mercy. Priests must never reveal to anyone the confession secrets they have heard from believers.

The WT JW organization teaching that the believers of their religion should also confess their sins to their "priests", who are the elders. Although in the formal every day language, words "confession of sin" are viewed in different way, different picture than it is in Catholic church, it can be said that it is formally the similar idea as in the Catholic Church. Awareness of one's sin may come to elders in two ways: as a voluntary confession of one's sins before one or more elders or when a member of the Assembly declared the sin of another member of the organization.

There are two outcomes for a JW believer after the elders find out about a sin. He will either be allowed to remain as full member of the assembly, or be expelled/dfd from the organization.

What does that tell us? Although the WT JW organization claims that it is incorrect and unbiblical when a Catholic priest forgives sins to a Catholic believer, we are free to observe that in their treating, JW elders towards their member, they act in the same way as a Catholic priest. By allowing JW sinner to remain to be a member of the congregation, they, as the Judges of the JW Church, forgave him. They forgave him on their's behalf, on behalf of the injured party, and on behalf of the assembly. In the event that they had excluded sinners, it would mean that no one had forgiven him. This kind of treatment denies the allegations regarding the Catholic Church about who have right to "forgive sins".

Certain Bible passages teaching assembly members to be prepared to forgive the sins of other members. This actually means that there is a basis on which one sinner can forgive sins of a another sinner. If so, then it means that some sin can be forgiven, not just by the directly injured party, but by any other member of the congregation. Every member can, if he wants and wish, but he is not forced if he does not want to.

But in the Catholic Church, a believer who has the burden of sin and wants to confess it in his church, goes to only one priest, not two or three, and confesses his sin only to him. In this case, sin is confessed to only one person. And that forms the basis for the "secret" in the Catholic Church. Because the secret is revealed to only one person.

In the JW congregation, "confession of sin" gets another level of "secrecy." The secret does not remain verbally spoken between two people, but the "secret" extends to 3 or 4 people, maybe more. However, it is very important to note that the "confession" is also documented in writing. According to what i know, a Catholic priest does not making (mandatory) written record for the sins of his believers. JW elders, by contrast, must make a "confidential file" kept in the archives and / or destroyed if it would be said so by the authority of the higher hierarchy body.

It is unacceptable that the WT JW organization invokes the Catholic Church and their "penitent privilege", or "confessional secrets" between believers and chaplains (soul carrier, shepherd), as the basis by which it operates within its own organization and regulates the spiritual life of believers in the JW Church.

The "confessional secret" in the Catholic Church  and "confession of sin" before the elders in the JW assembly are two things.

On 9/5/2019 at 9:21 PM, Ray Devereaux said:

CONCUBINE A concubine is a woman whose status in relation to her sole legitimate sexual partner is less than primary wife.

On 9/5/2019 at 11:06 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

Thanks to Ray the Newbie for putting some meat on the bones that Jack hoped to shock everyone with.

With or without meat .... said words not denied polygamous culture of Israel society. And not denied practice of women and men who enjoyed in sex outside of any sort of marriage arrangements.  

On 9/7/2019 at 9:22 AM, Jack Ryan said:

The last talk on Sunday Geoffrey Jackson made the claim that WW2 was started because of Satan's desire to attack Jehovah's people in Germany.

:))) 

Satan desire for WW3 made him to persecute Russian JWs ??

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

so it is good that someone will understand how it feels to be a woman even if they are now in heaven and no longer have gender. 

...... nothing against your comment, just this remind me on "explanation" from past publication - Women gender of some of those in 144000 class, while were been on Earth, will help non-gender Kings and Priests to "help" people on Earth. 

So, it seems how: fact that they have "spiritual bodies" after resurrection, and fact that they are "perfect spiritual beings"  and in Heaven, is not enough for them to understand people's need. There is a necessity that some of 144000 class individuals have had women's hormones in past life. :)))

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

The hierarchical structure of the  Catholic church comes directly from the structure of pagan religions. The Pope is a title which comes from "pontifus maximus" a title of the ceasar.  I do not know of any JW elder which is called a 'cardinal' or a 'father' - titles which are against the bible. 

The bible instructs the one working as a circuit overseer to appoint elders and gives the qualifications needed to become ministerial servant or elder. Titus and Timothy both served in this kind of capacity - visiting congregations and strengthening them and appointing the elders.

 

Since the visible agency that would be used by Christ is the faithful and discreet slave (and the facts of modern-day history already considered show that this “slave” employs the Watch Tower Society as a legal instrument), The Watchtower explained that theocratic procedure would require that appointments of service be made through this agency. Even as the congregations in the first century recognized the governing body in Jerusalem, so today the congregations would not prosper spiritually without central supervision.—Acts 15:2-30; 16:4, 5. - Jehovah’s Witnesses—Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom p. 219

¹⁹ These older men meet the requirements that are set out in God’s Word, which is a product of God’s spirit. (1 Timothy 3:1-7; Titus 1:5-9) Hence, their appointment can be said to be by holy spirit. (Acts 20:28)    W 02/8/1 p. 13,14

We are free to make reasonable conclusion how human factor stay behind "hierarchical structure" inside JW Organization, and how Men who have influence making important decisions for Elders structure or Doctrinal Issues. Holy spirit, who supposedly work for WT Society and JWorg, is just sort of fictional idea, hope how things should be and personal trust in possibility. Names/Titles for Clergy Class in Catholic church or in JWorg and differences in wording is of less importance if System is almost the same or similar, and that is: Men appointing men.   

On 8/31/2019 at 2:40 PM, Witness said:

In what way are elders appointed by holy spirit?

¹⁹ These older men meet the requirements that are set out in God’s Word, which is a product of God’s spirit. (1 Timothy 3:1-7; Titus 1:5-9) Hence, their appointment can be said to be by holy spirit. (Acts 20:28)    W 02/8/1 p. 13,14

Perhaps requirements are good, as it is described in Scriptures. But, people who put other people on position of elders are not inspired, as they already claimed few times in publications. And because they are not inspired , their capacity to connect this two elements - candidate for elder and "inspired requirements" described in Bible - are in sphere of human, earthly insight.

Well, all this try/manipulation to make elders to look as "appointed by HS" (in the previous time WT Society, GB, or today by Circuit Overseer making final decision about appointing) is based on personal interpretation and impression of CO about candidate and on instructions made by Organization that CO have to take as guidance.

To be appointed by HS - vs - It can be said their appointment to be by HS, are two different issue.

In Human Organization with Hierarchical structure (similar to Catholic Church) no one can be sure who's appointment is made by whom.    

@JW Insider This two days Billy is so busy with down votes of my posts too.

1 hour ago, Anna said:

Example:

"B.C. court ruling against father in child hormone treatment case sets dangerous precedent"

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/bc-court-ruling-father-child-hormone-treatment-case-dangerous/

 

 

This is interesting and good to read from link you provide:

Part of what qualifies a minor to be recognized as legally “mature” (able to make adult decisions independently from her parents and from the government) is her ability to think through difficult issues and deal maturely with opposing viewpoints. 

In cases involving teenage Jehovah’s Witnesses who refuse life-saving blood transfusions, one of the things considered by courts, when assessing whether the minor is legally “mature” and able to make this decision on her own, is her capacity to hear and consider differing viewpoints. 

If a child is already dealing with significant emotional and mental stress that impedes her ability to rationalize and consider competing medical opinions, she will not be able to handle differing advice (for example, doctors urging her to accept a blood transfusion while religious leaders urge her to refuse this) and cannot therefore be deemed  legally “mature.”

Justice Bowden’s Order prohibits the father from trying to persuade his female-born child to refrain from experimental and irreversible testosterone treatments. This assumes that the child is not sufficiently mature to handle differing opinions and to think through the pros and cons of different options. 

If true, this means the child is not a mature minor. 

If the child is not a mature minor, the child cannot decide on serious and irreversible medical treatments; it’s up to the parents. Yet the lower court views the child as mature enough to decide on experimental medical treatments, but not mature enough to deal with the father’s objections.

Here i see parallel with WT Society Order about prohibition to going on "apostate" sites or on any other "worldly" material that can "shake" JW member faith and believe. To see or read or hear anything that Oppose to Official WT Doctrines and Instructions. According to view presented in article, JW members looks like "immature minors" who are not able to defend their position without WT Society and JWorg Spiritual Interventions and Theocratic Court Orders. aka GB Orders.

About Judge and Court in general in this case about changing sex. This is just prove how "worldly" Courts "are not inspired and can err." :)))

4 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

If James does something wrong. Will you accept the blame and pay for whatever damage and compensation levied against James?

If person XY has done something wrong because person QW said him what and how to do it, (in reality what XY has done after QW advised him), than QW has obligation to take some blame. QW have to take responsibility and quit from his position, because he caused damage. QW will be doing good if he found some less responsible job, cleaning windows for example. 

For QW it would be good to ask for second opinion, and not to take XY advice as "God-given".

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Then, learn your own laws before you criticize laws of other nations

??

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Does that mean when you and James up-vote each other, YOU ARE A ROBOT?

:)))))))))

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I don’t see the Watchtower breaking the laws of the U.S

Main question is: Do WT Society and JW Organization have clergy class? When informing public through own publications, WT Society and JWorg say: We have no clergy-laity distinction, we have no paid clergy ....etc. 
But WT Lawyers say: We have clergy and we want to have rights as Clergy in all other Churches (namely Roman Catholic Church) !

J.W. filed a motion to compel further responses to a request for the production of documents. J.W. asserted she requested Watchtower produce various documents, and Watchtower refused citing the clergy-penitent privilege.

On May 9, 2014, the trial court, specifically Commissioner Gregory, held a hearing on Watchtower’s motion to set aside the February 11 order. The trial court said Watchtower asserted clergy-penitent privilege in opposition to the motion to compel as it concerned RFP 66.

When Judge Peterson began the February 11 hearing, he said in regard to all of Watchtower’s objections to all of the requests for production, “[Watchtower] object on the following grounds: Number one, penitent/clergy privilege, attorney/client privilege, attorney work product, privacy, and in several instances, the time period which would cover the documents sought to be received.”

source: https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/19/19-40/104104/20190625174601258_288149_Petition.pdf , pages 54, 60, 83

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

The Watchtower doesn’t directly claim clergy privilege, it’s automatically given by each State that has it in their legal binding. (I.e. laws)

Please, tell me what is difference when WT Society indirectly claim clergy status for Elders ?? 

Automatically given by each State?? Some explanation would be interesting to hear. IF it is automatically given, why WT and JWorg automatically accepting that?? Why they not make Legal Complain and "Fight in Courts" for neutrality and autonomy in that issue? :))

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

At least in the U.S. I assume your communist nation sees it differently.

:))) Croatia is not communist country. Croatia is in NATO and in deep process of accepting all and every capitalistic idiocy.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

the Society has claimed, in court, under oath, that they are a hierarchy, EXACTLY like the Catholic Church,

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

they DO claim, also in court, under oath, that they are entitled to "clergy-penitent privilege", the same as the Catholic Church.

Thanks for very good reminder about FACTS.

I think how @Foreigner is robot... most of the time. He/she is in down vote crusade, again :)))) 

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Therefore, Srecko does it really take an active witness to read other peoples works or can it be other people read those works and combined it with the Watchtower to have asked a witness about it, or think it was the Watchtower that published it to have accepted it by mistake.

.... or can it be other people read those works and combined it with the Watchtower to have asked a witness about it, ....

Do you suggest by this how non-JW people are so interested to know what JW's have to say about some subject on world events - in particular, about 1975 - ? I think that you can count on fingers of one hand, it is so small number of non-JW who would, who was talking about 1975 in religious manner, in that period of time when WT Society publication put effort to emphasized 1975 as very important year to humankind in connection to Bible prophesies about Last days, Armageddon, Salvation, Kingdom. 

I think that 1975 has been of Important interest, in JW Unique Way of Bible Doctrines, only to JW members inside JW Organization. Because they have read about 1975 in own publications, of course, and not in Washington Post or in National Geographic, for example.

 But, because we been presented here how also other non-JW people were speaking about 1975, from their standpoints, it is possible to conclude how JW's has been trustful only to WT Society Spiritual Leaders and not to some other religious or secular sources. By that what we know how JW members are warned to be very careful about any other sources of information, it can be say how JW's in period before 1975 have been very obedient and listen only that what WT Society said about 1975. 

15 hours ago, Arauna said:

I have a nasty suspicion that only religion will be held accountable.

I am not sure about this idea. If 3 elements run world (religion, politic and money) they need each other, if not for anything else but for exactly this - to run the world, to govern the world. East Europe communism try to live without religion for decades, but religion lived on "lower" level and survived. Elements will stay, only some individuals inside them, will be changed (bring down or up), because in interactions inside group of who have or want to have, more power and money. 

15 hours ago, Arauna said:

How can an organization be retroactively be held accountable by legislation when there was no proper legislation in place for a very long time.... and there were no proper and free child services available from government to determine if the abuse  really  happened or  not. 

If you mean, partially, and on WT Society too, you need to have in  mind that WT and JW have The Best of All Legislative - Bible, as they claim. But despite this "FACT", this same Organization show same or similar "weakness" as any other secular or religious organization !! In that sense, no new "proper legislative" made by governments will not Upgrade and make Better WT-JW Internal Legislative. How not? Because, WT Lawyers call for US Amendment on free religion practice and doctrines. By that, US Courts (and perhaps European too) are not place to discuss about religious and doctrinal aka spiritual handling about "sins" that elders doing in child  abuse cases.  

Retroactively be held - maybe is not possible through the Secular Laws, but for True Believers, IT IS possible, because despite the fact how God is ready to forgive, but in the same time, He have to give Justice to Victim and make that wrongdoer pay for bad deed. That is His law from the old time that work until today.

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

A "woman" (not a teenager) who repeatedly was abused by someone outside the congregation?

Google Translation:

According to the woman, during a meeting with two of the elders in the congregation, she was informed that she would be excluded because of fornication. She thinks the reaction came after she said she had been sexually abused by a person outside the church.

Article not say that she told: Repeatedly abused.

Next what i would ask: Why she went to elders and told them about abuse?  Perhaps because elders are "Shepherds" who will help? Did she went to police too?

4 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

The reason 1975 became a fiasco aside from the obvious indicators ex-witnesses bring, there were other prophesiers to claim the “end of the world” would be in 1975. Herbert W. Armstrong, and Charles R. Taylor that I can recall.

4 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I had several friends ask me who Herbert Armstrong was, and why was he stating the world would end in 1975, when I was telling my friends about the end of an era, the 6000 years of human existence.

Here, after this two quotes you bring, i have to ask: Did rank and file JW members of those period have read also Non-WT publications about 1975? When you say: "I had several friends ask me...", well, you mean on your JW friends or Non-JW friends?  Also, Betel Bible scholars have custom to read "worldly" publications on various topics, and it would be no surprise how some of influence and ideas were copied or/and modified  and presented as "Bible Light" to JW's.

Apostates and ex-witnesses (generally is the same group to WT Society), according to your presentation, are in fact JW members from 1975 period who became "apostates and ex-witnesses" because they are reading works of Non-JW authors of books???? :))))  

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Therefore, the Works of the Watchtower are considerably different in its outcome with its message to distinguish itself from others.

Yes, WT dfd many who was confused and questioned religious doctrines and ideas about 1975. THAT IS considerably different from others. :))