Srecko Sostar

Somebody made a video about Amos 3:7 and many of GB statements how they are not inspired. Verse is -  Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

According to this God's promise, in this period of time and in ANY period of time, if JHVH is pleased to do it (especially IF this period is/are  Last days of this Old World and time when God introducing change on worldwide scene for Kingdom) it can/would be expected that God Reveals such Things to HIS servants aka prophets aka FDS aka GB of WT Organizaton.

Because that is something what JW member is expecting and what was thought to expect - to hear Life Saving Instruction  even if such Instruction maybe Not Sound Reasonable from Human Standpoint.  

As Bible provide examples of God's past dealings with human and of His way of Revealing His Will, it is very notable and significant to notice how such Revelations was done in supernatural way, or in Bible wording "By Inspiration".

 Well, it seems how we have dilemma and problem with our Trust to GB as Group of Man who leading 8 billion people to safety of NW. If they were not "Inspired" all this time, it can be how they wandered through the Modern Desert not founding the way to Promised Land. And they still do this same thing today. 

Do You Trust Them as You Trust JHVH or Jesus??!! :))

32 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said:

If the truth that Jesus hands down to the governing body turns out to be wrong then it is imperfect truth.

If you don't mind i would put that in this way: 

A) Jesus didn't provide no information's to GB, because miracles stopped in 1 century :))

B) Ideas that GB imagined to be "truth" was "empowered" by ?? in their everyday Bible reading

C) Truth can't be neither imperfect nor perfect. "The Truth" can be - or truth or lie 

D) GB statement in WT article:  Of course, Jesus did not tell us that his faithful slave would produce perfect spiritual food.", Watchtower 2017 Feb p.26 is complete nonsense. Why?

Because: 1) Nothing of that sort was not written in Bible. 2) FDS "appointment" was about sharing food, and NOT about producing any sort of food, because food has already produced by Jesus in his Teachings.  

37 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

I don't follow your (presumably) reasoning that if crime and sin are synonymous then Secular Authorities could handle all "judicial matters", unless your are presenting it from a soulical perspective.

Do you therefore think that the secular definition of sin and crime is the same as the sacred and that sacred and secular authority is synonymous in these matters?

I just made few way of possible reasoning on issue. And as result, each of this different views on matter can, may bring various outcomes on handling with JW people who done something that this religious organization not allow.

As we see from various statements made by JW Representatives, this "sin - crime" issue is also "foggy" to them... Or it is not?!  They said how Elders are to deal only with "sin" and Secular Authority to deal with "crime". But in cases of child abuse, it is obvious how such differentiation in 1) Terminology and in 2) Division of duties (among Elders and Worldly Officers) is bad for victims. Don't you agree? If victims suffer because Administrative Ideology and rules and protocols, than people in charge must CHANGE what they now doing. As Jesus said, when your animal falls in into a pit or into a hole at Sabbath - would you brake Sabbath Law and provide help or waiting for next day? Jesus was obviously showed "rebellious" solution :))) Would you allow for Children to wait on some Clark in JW Office to find time and way how to solve this problem?! Do you think that GB need to change attitude and brake "Sabbath Law" about this?! I hope you will say: no, on first and yes, on second.   

35 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said:

The conversation I overhear from the jw that lives with me is being labeled as persecution.

Of course, this sort or JW reasoning will prevail. 

On 8/3/2019 at 6:56 PM, JW Insider said:

[on the OTHER topic of Yugoslavia/Serbia/etc]

Srecko, It's about the same take that Edward Hermann has on the topic: https:// monthlyreview.org/2007/10/01/the-dismantling-of-yugoslavia/

I can no longer locate the Parenti essay as it is down, but just got it from the "wayback machine."

https://web.archive.org/web/20190331172008/http://www.michaelparenti.org/yugoslavia.html

I reference Parenti, rather than Hermann, because Parenti is so much more succinct.

I have never dealt with the reasons for the aversion that exists between Croats and Serbs. Neighboring countries with very similar language but different Christian religions. Two small nations with big appetites. The 1991 conflicts arose and were caused by old, unresolved accounts in their relationships dating back to about 1941 (especially) and before. 

How much and in what measures Foreigner Powers was involved in conflict it is hard to say for me. They had, for sure, interests. And some of actors had their expectations in relation to West or East.

They, Croats and Serbs, who was involved in conflicts in WW2 period as soldiers of regular armies and paramilitary groups and/or supporters of domestic governments and in this or that as supporters or in alliance with out side powers, done many crimes for sure. Tito was united many Yugoslav nations in resistance to domestic and foreign aggression and violence. But, obviously he had power and way how to unite all of them in one goal, freedom and own state. After his dead, and changes in east block, fall of Wall, awaking of people who want separate states, which is one of possibility made by YU Constitution everything went in that direction. Why leaders of YU Republics didn't that wisely and without conflicts and suffers and many deaths ....?    

14 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I don't recall, where the Watchtower has incarceration cells for the wicked. 🤫

In minds, spiritual cells :))))

13 hours ago, Outta Here said:

The key to understanding is to consider against who the crime or sin is committed.

against who .... is the key for understanding 

As i understand teachings of Bible (and perhaps teachings of JW Organization too), everything that is against "our neighbor" is also against God, because all people was made in the image of God. Well, doing something against That Image of God is same as doing something against Origin/Author of Image. In that relations i do not know how "the key" you talking about, making issue to be more understandable. We can go further with this. If human doing something that is bad for nature and animal world, we can say also how this is against God also, because He is Creator and  Author of that Nature. 

13 hours ago, Outta Here said:

Really, in the spiritual world there is no difference between a crime and a sin as any violation of God's laws or principles constitues a crime or sin. To sin is a criminal act.

If that is as you say, why GB and JW Lawyers complicate this issue? If JW Elders want to Judge only sins (specific list of things that are not crimes in the eye of Secular Authorities) than let them to handled such sins. Perhaps this idea can be some sort of New Policy until some "New Light" would bring more Clarifications on Issue. :)) But when something inside JW Organization happen what is not just "a sin", would it be "key" to call Secular Authorities to deal with it?

If, there is no difference between a crime and a sin, as you suggest in comment, than JW Organization have no need for Judicial Committees of Elders. All can be handled by Secular Authorities. :))

In both way of reasoning, something not working well in JW "Spiritual Paradise". I am expecting that future (with new generation of overlapping lawyers) bring some positive results on this. :))

Perhaps some JW members will be strengthen by this to reconsider their position and participation in Organization.

7 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

This is one complete failure in your part. The Watchtower instructs their members to trust in God that the spiritual food given does conform to scripture.

 

 

Therefore, people reading irrational comments on apostate sites should consider the deception given by ex-witnesses.

 

 

Thanks for comment.

Audio and video evidence, above,  show us or prove us how members were openly called To Trust  Spiritual Management of Organization aka GB. Speaker was, in this sentence/claim said how Jesus trust them, and because this reason members have all needed proofs to doing the same, to trust GB. 

In 1:01 speaker say: Jesus trusted the imperfect faithful slave to do its best to convey spiritual food. Do you also trust the slave?

Speaker was, in this sentence/claim said how "Jesus trust them", and because this reason members have all needed proofs to doing the same, to trust GB. Well, listeners are in position to have big confidence in his claim and to trust or believe him as a speaker who run this TV show. Not need to mention about specific way of speak and gestures in crucial moments of his "proofing" on few subjects (voice and gestures which i found very funny and as try to be manipulative in childish way) and subjects that are very important for members of this Organization to continue and stay "in hope". In the same time Management  of Organization continue with their "uninspired and imperfect visions" which deceiving many.

JW members are instructed by this GB member to trust their leaders aka Governing Body. On other side Bible has many verses that warning people about that issue. Well, it seems how human influence and even manipulation is on work. Just few Bible verses as evidence: 

 My dear brothers, do not trust every spirit. But test the spirits to see if they belong to God. - 1 John

Do not rely on a friend; do not trust in a companion. Seal the doors of your mouth from her who lies in your arms - Micah 7

Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save. - Psalm 146

For your own sakes, quit trusting in mere man,Who is only the breath in his nostrils.*Why should he be taken into account? - Isaiah 2

On 8/10/2019 at 11:23 PM, Outta Here said:

Without getting bogged down in semantics here, there is no real difference between the two words

I just have listen about new suit against WT Society and reporter of KOAT TV reported how WT spokesperson said: 

"Jehovah's Witnesses abhor child abuse as a sin and crime. Our policies on child protection ..."

Well, i believe how he know what he speaking about or he was instructed to tell this from WT lawyers. Sin and crime are two different words in JW organization. 

2 minutes ago, Indiana said:

Thanks @Srecko Sostar

Thanks to others who found it. I just copy/paste. As you see, WT Society and other sister Corporations filling some financial records to Financial Authorities. But they have no obligation to publishing them to JW members or others. :))

34 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

After all, judgment day is a reality.

35 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

earth back to paradise with "sinless" people.

After judgment day (Armageddon) JW waiting, all people will stay to be sinful ..... for at least 1000 years :)) 

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/922330/000106299302000371/form10k.txt

https://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regId=216647&subId=0

http://990s.foundationcenter.org/990_pdf_archive/386/386043103/386043103_201404_990.pdf

http://990s.foundationcenter.org/990pf_pdf_archive/386/386043103/386043103_201504_990PF.pdf

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1407041/000146299909000005/0001462999-09-000005-index.htm

https://abr.business.gov.au/Help/Glossary

https://abr.business.gov.au/ABN/View?abn=42002861225

https://ibsaproperty.com/#about

3 hours ago, derek1956 said:

If Jehovah wants to He could wipe out the entire earth, He has the right to do anything He wants and no-one has any right to question His actions.

About - No one has any right to questioning His action. 

I think how you made wrong conclusion on this. When satan and after Adam and Eve "questioned" JHVH actions, it is interesting how God, you want to defend with this few resolute statements, done in fact opposite of your conclusions.

How? God not punished none because of "questioning Him and His actions or rules". In fact JHVH allowed them and many other people after them to addressing "questions" of all sort. Until today. And God not show any animosity to Questioner or to Questions. He is displeased with some bad deeds of human, but that doesn't mean how He waiting to judging your thoughts and words, even against Him. 

He have more understanding for people and their questions than you showed in your personal presentation and mediating for God and in defending His Honor in simple sentence statement above.

I would be pleased that God "wipe out" bad things and people who in purposely evil mind doing those evils to others. But in same time, I do questioning God's waiting, and many more. Because, too many people and children and animals suffer (suffered in the past) because of His "waiting".

And if He decide to "wipe out entire earth", as you give suggestion that He might, ... so how that helps to prove - you are right and I am wrong ?? :)))) 

13 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Therefore, The Holy spirit with Jesus became a visual effect, rather than those that receive God’s Holy Spirit.

When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. ² Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. ³ They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. - Acts 2

very visual effects :)))

Sin vs Crime

Picture can look as this version 1:

JW members in Russia committed no Sin against nobody.....,

In version 2, picture is changed by Bible verses:

JW members done Crime against Secular Authority who Governed with JHVH permission and against what God set in place .... And by that committed a Sin against God. 

... So Jesus told them, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.” 

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God. Consequently, the one who resists authority is opposing what God has set in place, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

In version 3, picture is changed by next Bible verse:

But Peter and the other apostles replied, "We must obey God rather than men. 

In version 4, picture is paint by GB decisions and interpretations in particular case.

for example: Mexico, Malawi, Bulgaria, Russia, etc.

19 hours ago, Outta Here said:

The differentiation between a violation of Jehovah's law as a sin and not a crime would be a "soulical" percepton.

In the old days, people used to travel in various ways, and there were roads and also city streets. However, I do not remember that there is a divine law on traffic in the Bible or in other Jewish scriptures. :))
So, if the law did not describe or prescribe something, then that particular thing does not exist neither as a sin nor as a crime. :))
As the Bible speaks of divine law, which is a completely different category from secular law (no matter what they punished and some of the same actions by people), then we could still say that the words sin and crime have different origins and meanings. No divine law says whether or not a car driver can drive down the street and at what speed. Because of this, people, not God, have passed traffic regulations and laws. This human law has no concept of sin but an offense (traffic violation) and some others deal with concept of crime, not with sin.

Bible spoke about Secular Authority who carry "sword" and punishing violators of the Human Law, not of Divine Law. Of course, various human societies made changes through centuries and abandon biblical concept of "sin" in general, but they adopted the term "crime". Perhaps because, religion and state have to be separated.

And for that reason, JW Church was called to clear problems (especially actual issue of various child molestation made by members to other members) because of clerical ideas about elder-member privilege communication, two witness rule, Judicial Committees as Parallel Legislative System to "worldly" Legislative  and similar.

This sort/way of solving inside problems as religion community coming from Concept of Sin. On other side, JW Church as Institution, was not showed much will to report such "sinful crime" because they, generally, made distinction between "sin" and "crime". They decided how elders are appointed  to deal only with "sins", but Secular Authority with "crimes", and even if it is the same act.  (Richard Ashe  ....  

21 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

The fact that you compare crime and sin as the same, when crime is a sin, but what constitutes punishment from God and what constitutes punishment from God’s secular authority are two distinct avenues of God’s authority

I just said how terminology in JW Church is more, often based on word "sin". In NWT Bible there is only one single word in whole book with wording - "crime". In Luke 23:4 where Pilate, as non Jew, supposedly, using word "crime".

Some other translations using word "crime" on various places in Bible. 

I just noticed how word "sin" is more popular and somehow prevailed in JW spiritual, everyday vocabulary. 

10 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

In their case, simply put, just like Jesus, Paul is following Jesus footsteps by the power of the great commission. I “charge you” or I “commission you” to go forward and proclaim the good news of God’s Heavenly Kingdom. Paul understood the teachings of Christ. However, if you notice, Paul DIDN’T baptize them with water, but instead by laying his hand upon them that the Holy Spirit was granted.

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire

Well, by this verse and what you have said perhaps Jesus thought about such model of Baptism? And not with water?

10 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

While it is a personal decision to dedicate oneself to God, uttering words out load or in silence would be irrelevant.

I can understand what you said, but IF Words are not spoken (in one way or another) than it is opposite  to Jesus command :))

9 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I don’t recall when John the Baptist told Jesus, I am baptizing you on your name.

According to reports on Jesus baptism, it is ok with your or anyone else's memory that it is impossible to recall such thing :))). Perhaps somebody else on forum can explain similarity and differences on Baptisms made by John and all later Baptisms made by Jesus's Followers. 

After Jesus's Resurrection they have been instructed HOW to do Baptism. One element of John's way of baptism obviously continued - immersing in water. 

Also, as i recall, John proclaims baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sin, and says another will come after him who will not baptize with water, but with the Holy Spirit. Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.....and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. - Mat 3

After desert temptations:  From that time Jesus began to proclaim, (not disciples) “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near ...Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the good news^[d] of the kingdom and curing every disease and every sickness among the people.  - Mat 4

Then Jesus  summoned his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to cure every disease and every sickness..... These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans,⁶ but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ⁷ As you go, proclaim the good news,(not doing baptism)  ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near. - Mat 10

His disciples came and took the body (John the Baptist) and buried it; then they went and told Jesus. - Mat 14

After Resurrection: 

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. ¹⁹ Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,  and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” - Mat 28

Well, nothing pro et contra, just chronological line on who said what to who :))

26 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

In that context (Dualism of sort)  it would be very important to know when Organization as Worldly Company is stronger than Organization as Spiritual Paradise and vice versa. 

PS because of my English :))

... know when Organization as Worldly Company shows greater influence, power over  Organization as Spiritual Paradise and vice versa. 

6 hours ago, Outta Here said:

Instead of "factually", I would use the word "physically", or "soulically" if you want to get scriptural. You have used the term "spiritually" in contrast.

Both terms can be applied to the same set of facts,  and focus on the "eye of the beholder". In the immediate instance, the "soulical" view is that baptism is the ratification of some sort of (business?) contract with a religious "corporation". This is not the view of a spiritual mind. (Compare 1Cor.2:14).

Rank and file members aka publishers or in simple words - worldwide brotherhood, are connected spiritually with each other and with God as group of Organized Christians who are bond with particular set of doctrines, beliefs and  hope. In that sense, all relations between them have big "spiritual" aspects. Inside them, as a group, all dealings they have among them, are in some sort of "spiritual" work, reactions (of course with all physical inputs and  outputs, after all we are flesh and blood and bones). Hierarchical structure of "theocracy" appointed elders (semi clerical body) to deal/work with brotherhood. 

In WT Society, Lawyers have very significant role. Their dealings with people works in both reality. One reality is with outside world and "worldly people". Another reality is of "spiritual" nature inside "Spiritual Paradise" when they counsel elders, for example, how to respond in "sins" that outside reality considers to be "crime" or what documents bring to Court and what to tell. Inside reality speak only about sin. Sin is "spiritual" term. JW Church consider bad acts as sins, not a crimes. Because Spiritual Judicial System of JW Church accepting only Bible terminology. In this (Bible) reality,  word "crime" not existing. What exists is "sin". For that purpose WT Lawyers must explain to elders what is what and how sins inside JW organization have to be explained to "worldly" reality. 

WT Lawyers have special attitude  on JW members. For them, they are only rank and file members. They, members, representing nobody and nothing, except their personal beliefs (beliefs determined by WT Society spiritual revelations of Bible doctrines) in God. Although JW members not representing any of Corporative Entities of WT Society, what also including Congregation he/she visiting regularly, they, as members have some sort of Free Contractual Relation with Legal Entity/Entities. That special relation coming from "Yes" on Second Baptismal Question:  

2) “Do you understand that your baptism identifies you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with Jehovah’s organization?” (from 2019)

(2) Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization? (from 1985)

As Group of Organized Christians in Organization that has diversity of Companies with different names, they (members) receiving instructions for Christian life, not only from "spiritual" leaders aka GB and elders inside Spiritual Paradise. But members receiving instructions (in this way or another) from WT Lawyers too, who run life of many Companies/Corporations under different names (Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, is one of names).

Well in that sense, verse you bring ..... The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

..... is interesting. WT Lawyers playing, walking between this two Realities. In that context (Dualism of sort)  it would be very important to know when Organization as Worldly Company is stronger than Organization as Spiritual Paradise and vice versa. 

5 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

He was believed by the Peruvian Elders, and the only solution they could find was to "Unbaptize" him by declaring his baptism null and void.  It was either that, or disfellowship him.

6 hours ago, Outta Here said:

Does not matter a jot. The baptism is a symbol of the candidate's dedication, not that of the baptiser. 

If you don't mind for connecting this two comments.

"Baptism" of this man is done because he want to "dedicate" (guess) himself to God - spiritually , not to WT Society. 

But - factually, he made sort of "Contract, in corporative language, with WT Society through WT Representative who immersed him in water. 

Well, if God accepted his dedication, despite fact he has two wife's (perhaps he was repentant all the time, but he chooses second wife) than his baptism, spiritually is valid. But second (hidden) part of his "dedication" - to WT Society -  is in question, and that sort of "dedication" has been possible to delete in Administrative manner, because he also was hiding some important information.