Srecko Sostar

16 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

If any words are spoken at all, they should be spoken by the one submitting to baptism, and directed to the one receiving their dedication.

Yes, i recall period of time when baptizer said those words, .. in the name of.... , to candidate in the moments, seconds before immersing him/her. 

10 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

Proposing the notion that other Bible writers contradicted Jesus' direction on this matter is based on the false premise that their direction was not inspired by the same inspirator of Jesus.

Thanks for respond. 

I am interested to see some Bible quotes where people who wrote verses, about issue we talking, made self claims of their own "inspiration", or if other people claimed this for them, how in moments when speaking and or writing this verses they have been "inspired", ... what ever this word have meant to them before or to us today? 

I found this yesterday.

Baptismal questions from ANNOUNCEMENTS AND REMINDERS May 2019 (section FOR THE ELDERS ONLY).

3. Baptism Questions: The two baptism questions that are reviewed with candidates at the time of their concluding discussion with the elders and that are included at the end of each baptism talk outline have been changed as follows:

(1) “Have you repented of your sins, dedicated yourself to Jehovah, and accepted his way of salvation through Jesus Christ?”

(2) “Do you understand that your baptism identifies you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with Jehovah’s organization?”

The new questions will be used starting with the baptism talks at assemblies and conventions beginning the week of May 13, 2019. Elders should update the two questions on page 209 in their copies of Organized to Do Jehovah’s Will.

Old questions:  

Baptismal questions from the Watchtower 1985 Jun 1 p.30:

(1) On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?

(2) Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?

 

... accepted his way of salvation  is also omitted

Well it seems how organization is not spirit-directed any more :))

Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations,+ baptizing them+ in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, - Mat 28:19 nwt

WT Society have changed few times, in last 140 years, baptismal questions.

Also they stopped to respect, obey Jesus command quoted above. At some moment (perhaps about 1970's , please correct this guessing if it is wrong) JW person who immersing new member into water doing that silently. They do not repeat this Jesus words while baptizing "disciples". 

What do you think about this?  Whether the absence of spoken words (in the name of ....) is the reason why such baptism would be considered invalid? Or, that is not matter?  

10 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

However, those in the world that shun people do it for divisive reasons. Many times, not out of love.

I see that you are in line with motto of Convention "Love never Fails" :)) 

I saw some faces of JW bro and sis when dfd person is near, and i have not noticed "sparkling eyes because of love". Perhaps some problem was in those JW bros and sis ?? :)))))

On 8/1/2019 at 8:08 AM, Outta Here said:

Isn't the scripture clear? They would banish, treat as tax collector, avoid, hand to Satan, stop keeping company, not even eating with, remove, neither greet nor receive into their homes or say a greeting to. Do you need more?

Ezra 10:8."he would be banished from the congregation of the exiled people." (For comparison).

Matthew 18:17 "let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector"

Rom.16:17 "keep your eye on those who create divisions and causes for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them."

1Cor.5:5 "hand such a man over to Satan"

1Cor.5:9, 11 "stop keeping company", "not even eating with such a man."

1Cor.5:13 "Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”"

1Tim.1:18 "Hy·me·naeʹus and Alexander are among these, and I have handed them over to Satan so that they may be taught by discipline not to blaspheme."

As stated above: 2John v11

Dear Sir, you list here many verses from first century Christian writers and only one verse is from Jesus. It is interesting to me that in Mat 18:17 Jesus never commanded Shunning, Ignoring, Avoiding and similar as it is practice in JW Church. Jesus said; let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector". 

Now our task is to found out HOW Jesus TREATED such persons?! People of nations, and other that was "Questionable" (tax collectors, sinners, etc): 

 While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. - Mark 2

One of them, when he saw he was healed, came back, praising God in a loud voice. ¹⁶ He threw himself at Jesus’ feet and thanked him—and he was a Samaritan. - Luke 17

The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.^[a]) - John 4

A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”.... Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment. - Mat 15l

When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. ⁶ “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed,suffering terribly.” Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?” - Mat 8

He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’^[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’^[b]But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”  - Luke 10

You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor^[b] and hate your enemy.’ ⁴⁴ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, ⁴⁵ that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. ⁴⁶ If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? ⁴⁷ And if you greet only your own people, what are you  doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?⁴⁸ Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. - Mat 5

By this examples, Bible verses are also CLEAR how to treat people who are not of JW sort. Once again, how to treat individuals who are not any longer JW member - "let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector"

 Just as. Nothing about all those animosity feelings and shunning described by Bible Writers. Well, who would you Listen, Obey and Imitate? JESUS? or Bible Writers?

Well, we need MORE ANGELS of view :))))

6 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

to compare a man of homosexual tendencies who resists them to a woman of straight tendencies who practices immorality

oh dear :))) well i am troublemaker ....  but you may/can say - judge, how this woman is less guilty than this man ? Than why in Bible is said how both sins (sinners) have to be punished by dead penalty? In OT and in NT?

New Moral View ? :))) Or we can IMITATE Jesus dealing with sinners and to speak: Go, and sin no more.

So, why to form Judicial Committee when all can be simplified and less stressful for all  involved, by few words: Go, and sin no more. 

9 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

You seem to have missed the point. The point is, what's the difference when worldly people do the same.

Thanks for respond Billy. Do you like this answer about difference: Worldly people are under power of satan, as Bible said. They are Led by bad spirit and doing this same thing. JW people are under power of JHVH, and have Spiritual Paradise, as WT Society said. They are Led by JHVH spirit and doing the same thing. 

We here have two different reasons/causes but same result = Shunning of those who are not, which are not acceptable.

 Do you have some explanation? 

9 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Therefore, look at your criticism from all angles. You will find that the word shunning has ZERO credibility with us that have experienced the other side of that word. Reverse shunning, start learning that phrase and store it in your vocabulary.

I agree about all angles :))

3 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Let’s face it. There once was a time when it was not required for parents and at-home daughter to find “common compromised solution” when the daughter insisted on violating moral standards as old as time. Not only was it not required, but parents were though dupes if they did it.

It is as I said before. Srecko represents the irreligious who would demand that religion accommodate his “new morality.”

Yes, ok. JW son who is in fact homosexual, but maybe say how he does not practicing homosexuality, can stay with his JW parents in their home and be full JW member in congregation as any other. You speaking and about such things too ? :)) JW Church made that to be Legal. What would his parents decide out of congregation? Or if they are out of JW Church?

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

There are many generous people that go help, but how many do you think will welcome such a person in their home.

I guess how JW Mother want to help her Daughter too, but after she and her husband decide to not give daughter a room in their house, also decide not to talk to her by phone. So, one punishment (physical) is not enough. After, they decide to continue with emotional and psychical penalty.

Or, perhaps you would go with idea to forming Ghetto for JW dfd people who failed in sexual morality. Drug addicts JW can be in separate Ghetto, etc etc.  

:))

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

her parents did not want her to leave.

I know. Both side spoke of their demands and condition to stay at home. They not found common, compromised solution, so they have had separate, left each other in bad emotions.  

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You’re joking! In your eyes it should be illegal for them to not answer the phone?

As long someone has father and mother, he/she is their child. Minor or Adult. Well, in that sense Public Lesson gave in video drama on Convention is not question of legal or illegal stuff. It is question/issue of religious doctrine inside family circle. And about choice of what sort of moral standards is good for members of particular religion. JW are not unique in this standard of shunning.

But here we can see how moral standards are softer today, even in JW religion which is based on Bible Standards. One of standards for true worshiper, for many centuries, was to neutralized all those inside who are not living by Law. Children or adults. Today JW Church does not apply some of those parts of Bible Law. But they apply some other parts from same books of Bible and find some basics or principles in such commands with some modifications that can be used in Modern Societies and under Modern Laws. With possibility how those measures, that is in some sort of moratorium for now, will be in power in the future, perhaps. Some past quotes in WT magazine giving such impressions, or at least gave sound of sorrow how such way of punishment is not possible to practice because of Secular Laws in this Millennium. 

What was Legal in Moses period is not today (perhaps in some Sharia law lands it is). So, Legal is changeable stuff, also as Moral is too.

Blood Issue and Fraction rules (even for Public Daily use before Secular authorities) mentioned in comments, proves how terms - Moral and Legal - is/are not Firm Standard even in JW Church. 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Should the Watchtower lawyer defend disfellowshipping by quoting 2 Timothy 2:17

WT Lawyer would use only such Bible verses about dfd to not put WT Society in more worse position. I guess, how using 2 Tim 2:17 will open another issue, about doctrines, and that is not of interest to Court. Court is not interested to waste their time on "empty talking about doctrines and teachings"    Do not get involved in foolish discussions about spiritual pedigrees or in quarrels and fights about obedience to Jewish laws. These things are useless and a waste of time. Titus 3:9    :))))

But if WT lawyer would like to explain and give Scriptural evidence, for example, WHAT Bible verse said, how is completely justified for JW member/parents, and that it is LEGAL to refuse to answer on daughter phone call ....that will be very interesting.

After all, Scriptures was made for one particular nation in one particular time. Some General principles on human behavior, how we as people must respect other people, can be found on other places too (in human conscience as first place, for example). Religious matters, doctrines and similar theological questions is not of prime interest for Courts,..... maybe in Russia it is :)))  

Shunning on private level is understandable. Shunning on Organizational level in forms of Organizational Dictate and with rules in details (under treat of punishment if you disobey) call on alarm. And that is something that WT lawyer would not be able to defend so easy - with or without Bible verses.

34 minutes ago, Anna said:

I can see that a part of the problem is that both children and pets are dependent on the adults and that both children and pets are not able to make informed decisions like the adults are, and therefor the adults in charge of them make the decisions for them.

both children and pets are not able to make informed decisions like the adults are,

If you allow me to say, I see a little problem here. WT Society looking with happiness when 7 - 17 years old children making "informed decision" to be baptized.

Also, Organization are proud when Court making decision to allow minor children to make own "informed decision" on medical treatment (refuse blood).

This two sort of examples making issue more complicated. Because, will you allow or not allow - that children making own "informed decisions"? And should that be general rule for all children? Or  you put final decision on adult (Judicial Committee .... Worldly  Court) does  children  enough "mature" to make own "informed decision" or not? Etc.  

35 minutes ago, Anna said:

So assuming Jehovah really means that the law on blood includes all forms of manipulation with blood, and all forms of ingesting blood whether by mouth or intravenously, what would HIS decision be regarding the treatment of the child?   In that case, aren't the parents merely trying to uphold what they believe would be Jehovah's decision,

Here i see some theological issue. If God who see things in advance not gave clear command to his people about blood and say - do not eat, do not drink, do not transfuse blood, how is possible that people interpret blood ban as ban about blood transfusion or some other medical treatment that will come in the future?

If we try to explain how his people (or people in general) didn't know nothing  about transfusion, so God didn't want to made his command  unclear or incomprehensible to them, than i see another proof how GB explanation about need to obey their command and instructions despite the fact how such "Life Saving" instructions are not reasonable or understandable from "human standpoint" is just human interpretations and manipulation. 

If God not want to burden people more than it is needed, and he was done that with clear and sound commandants, readable in Law - ......

Why would He allow and be agreeable, with GB ideas .... who  giving obscure and questionable instructions, to His people about way of worshiping?    

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for

First of all, thank you TTH that you did made this big answer on my reaction comment.

You may think about my comments as "tauntingly". If i or somebody else ("apostate") told you, how this or that in WT Society is wrong, with more or less evidence, you would not accept it, because that is apostate lies. If some making "sarcastic" comments, that also will not help you because such "approach" is not good for you, too. Maybe you are right how this way is not "spiritual enough", "loving enough", "theocratic enough", "legalistic enough" to be acceptable to you or to some other person from JW Church.  But this is how it is. I can't change you, and you can't change me. :))

About quote above. I am not sure, but thinking how Paul was talking about Scriptures that was considered "inspired" and God's Word, in their point/period of time. Well, i think he spoke about Pentateuch, Prophetic books, Psalms as ..... Scriptures.  

So, what he had in mind with terminology/word -  Scriptures - it is/was not some other Letters or Writings in HIS TIME. But ONLY WHAT WAS WRITTEN BEFORE HIM. MANY YEARS BEFORE HIM. 

So, when we today going to use his words, "All Scripture" than we must be more precisely. Because,  His Idea and Our Idea about what is CONTENT and MEANING of wording "All Scripture" IS NOT The SAME. :))

Nothing Ironic, Sarcastic, Taunting in comment i didn't put. Just tried to be more explicit. 

Well, if people today quoting something from Bible, it would be correct and fair to know how people in past (Paul in this case) had some OTHER THINGS in his/their mind when they used word (and quotes from) "Scriptures".  

43 minutes ago, Anna said:

Obviously this principle can be misused as it appeared to be by the JW lawyer in question. (I don't really like to base my opinion on partial information, as is the short clip of the video. I mentioned that in my first comment. What if the issue really was exclusively about a family member living at home).

In that case, I think how JW layer had enough time to explain before Court ALL and EVERY SMALL DETAILS on SHUNNING POLICY.

But he didn't. WHY? Why not to explain all about JW way of living and how they practice Bible principles, to all this people involved in case? It would be Great Witnessing ... and he will make JHVH to be very proud.

:))

9 hours ago, Anna said:

Unfortunately, (or should I say fortunately?) Br. Herd's comments are something to do with his age. That's not to say much younger persons cannot adopt the same stance. I have known elders tell a young woman she should be happy she is not living in Israelite times as she would have been stoned. 

Br. Herd's comments are something to do with his age

As GB member and in a special position as one who Take a Lead of God's People on Earth, Br. Herd obviously, in that particular moment when gave this speech, was not Led by Spirit or  Guide by Bible and Angels .... but he was Led by his Age. :))

Another thing. While reading comments, one think, one thing, came on my mind. About not going to army service and "learning to fight". I made parallels with another sort of "weapon, gun". That is words. It looks to me, because people can "learn" good and bad things, it is not always good to send people in school to learn how to read and write and giving talk. :))) Because sometimes, when some of such people wrote and/or said something from position of Teacher (spiritual in our example) then he can make more "killings"(spiritual stoning) than some soldier on battle field.   

9 hours ago, Anna said:

13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I understand that the entire point was to mislead, and I hope everyone will see that this simply means that the Society's representative here knows that we should not be proud of our current practice. Therefore we are ashamed.

Bold mine.

Not sure I quite agree with you there. In my opinion I do not think we are ashamed, but we think others will simply not understand our, what appears to be a loveless stance.

Perhaps it can be said in this way.

When JW members defending "the truth", in such or similar issue, inside own private or congregational circle than they are proud on temporary doctrines.

But when JW member have to defend some sorts of practice before "worldly people" (for example, not pick up the  phone to dfd daughter or let baby to die because of blood and fraction policy)  caused by accepting official doctrines and interpretations of Bible verses, then i can be sure how some shadow of shame is possible to come on face of some (maybe not all) JW's. Perhaps some very good observer and reader of micro facial expressions, mimics and gestures, would be able to see that. And even that same JW member would feel some sort of short term discomfort.

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

@Srecko Sostar: Completely different subject. Have you read or heard of a political author (American) named Michael Parenti? I have read a couple of his articles and have a book of his on the socio-politico-economic situation around Croatia and recent history there from Bill Clinton's time, and since. Wondered how much truth you thought his ideas had (if you know of them). They are not popular ideas in the US, so, even if credible, it's difficult to get a sense of validation/confirmation.

Sorry, I am not familiar with this author and text of him. I will try to find something on internet to learn about his writings. Thanks for subject. :))

11 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

as there is evidence that ex-JWs helped the prosecution in Australia

...  fluctuation of people, from here to there, is always good way that the other part can be able to understand more - other people reality :)))

15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But it was considerably more serious to the War Department and FBI if a person had influence, and their words were intended to influence.

Words has power to influence. Preaching Service, for example, is tool to make influence on people to change according to message. 

Words cannot change reality, but they can change how people perceive reality. Words create filters through which people view the world around them. A single word can make the difference between liking a person and disliking that person. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/let-their-words-do-the-talking/201011/words-have-power

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The Watchtower publications were quick to point out any religious affiliation of persons involved in the case and the courts, and they found that the bail hearing judge, Manton, was Catholic and later disgraced in the 1930's.

For very long time WT publications doing this - point out on any religion - with strong criticism and opposition, because all other religions are devil structures made to deceive people. Remember 1980 decade and "attack" on  Roman Catholic Church and other parts of "Christendom". 

Perhaps today is little different about Judges and their affiliation/belongings to some Religion. Did someone in GB or any of JW members asking about, for example, to what religion belongs ARC Hon. Justice Peter McClellan ?! Is that really matter? But it can be important IF you want defend own position with attack on person - who this man is, if he is Catholic than he Must be against us, because he belong to God's enemies ... etc. 

Similarity can be seen in that how JW and WT sees Russian attack on JW Church .... they (enemies) are/belong to Russian Orthodox Church. Who are Judges in Russia Courts? Orthodox members? Who attacks JW and WT Society? Church members, Church Structures or ... devil? Or some standards (of society, moral, religion, civil) are different about some issues than in your home?   

In that sort of logic, people can questioning - why so many lawyers (perhaps not all) who defending/representing WT Society or particular member/s of JW Church ARE also Jehovah's Witnesses??!! Agenda?  Or, do JW Church prefer Atheist people (to be judges and lawyers) as better solution, more justice and sincere? :))

History repeats itself all the time. :))

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

You called yourself an honest reader,

I wrote word "reader" -  ONLY this word, and not - honest reader

You are Constructor of other people sentences ! 

Do not add words that i had never say !

I think that i will stop further conversation with you !

Shameful !!! 

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The case of Frank D'Onofrio makes the point that once a person is in a military unit they are under the command of others.

When i was arrested by Civil Police and handed to Military Police and after they transported me to place where i have to serve army, they treated me as Soldier even i was in civil clothes. Later i understand that all young people who passed age of old (17) when they went to medical examination /recruitment / and been put in evidence for serving in army,  were  under the law  and considered as future soldier, especially in moment when you are literally, physically inside Military Camp.  

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

charging that the eight above named—

“unlawfully and feloniously did conspire, combine, confederate and agree together, and with divers other persons to the said Grand Jurors unknown, to commit a certain offense against the United States of America, to wit: the offense of unlawfully, feloniously and wilfully causing insubordination, disloyalty and refusal of duty in the military and naval forces of the United States of America when the United States was at war . . . by personal solicitations, letters, public speeches, distributing and publicly circulating throughout the United States of America a certain book called Volume VII Bible Studies The Finished Mystery, and distributing and publicly circulating throughout the United States certain articles printed in pamphlets called Bible Students Monthly, Watch Tower, Kingdom News and other pamphlets not named.”

causing insubordination, disloyalty and refusal of duty in the military and naval forces of the United States of America when the United States was at war . . . by personal solicitations, letters, public speeches

Please, what do you know about this?

4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

19 hours ago, Witness said:

He must have the ability to read each heart, just as the Father and Christ do.

Clearly I do not, therefore unlike you, I do not call a people with the accusation of being under demonic influence

In Trinity topic you used such accusations, this are quotes of yours (addressed to me):

1)  Your own claims are forfeit because there were merely lies, more so, satanic lies ...

2)  For he is a Satanic hypocrite to the highest degree in this sense.

Something is wrong with your mirror !  :))