Srecko Sostar

10 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It’s amazing what Jehovah accomplishes considering what he has to work with.”

Yes Tom, we can go with this sentence on next road too. It is amazing how living in this evil world is so good sometimes..... because JHVH had been successful in accomplished few good things through secular people and their evil systems, despite what He has/had to work with. :))   

17 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Only hypocrites demand the Watchtower to be perfect. That just begs the question, who on earth is a perfect human being?

I suppose how every Truth, of every Kind, is Perfect Thing. The Truth is impossible to be something else but Perfect. By this kind of logic everyone who tell/told the Truth about something was showed sort of Perfection in particular Moment for particular Issue. .....Why? Because you don't need to have perfect body or perfect mind to tell The Truth! 

Other problem with our Truths is what @JW Insider has told before: We can believe or/and assure ourselves in something as it is The Truth. :)) But i think, here is more about our Interpretations on this or that, reality or fiction, which come to be, after procedures and mechanisms in Personal or Institutional authorizations, Sort of Normative or Doctrines. And as such some of this various Things in one and same Structure can be Truths and Lies.

Exactly this amalgam of such two opposite things that can be/existing in one single Entity (person or organization of any kind) make that person or organization Imperfect. 

As result, of this Truth, Watchtower IS Imperfect because Truths and Lies Living Together inside Organization/Society.        

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

Hi Anna! Sorry for the delay in response. I am a little bit confused what you mean about complete obedience being in the minds of only some Witnesses. The Governing Body spells it out in their literature. Here are some notable examples:

@Anna  In my opinion, based on fact that no where in WTJWORG print or digital way, GJ appearance  before ARC was NOT possible to see (to read about) on JWTV Broadcasting, to empowered your reasoning, claim  before JW people on that other website. 

By that they consider you sort of "apostate" or at least person who spread false gossip. But this was good experience for you.

You, as JW are not "inspired". Bro GJ as GB of JW's is not "inspired" too. So, how than, that his words have more value than Your's ?! :)) 

1 hour ago, Witness said:

What we see as "organized" is by the structured standards established for centuries.  

Some societies in the World made better "progress" than others in many ways. As for WTJWORG, after splitting of Yugoslavia every new state formed own Betel. In Croatia, i guess it was and in other former YU republics, western countries send their brothers to these new Betel's to organized work  according to "new", "western" standards. Because JW work, JW society, JW organization in free capitalist countries was much better than in ex communist republics of YU. :)))

Many domestic brothers asking, why they send brothers from Germany, Austria, Italy to "Teach Us" how to preaching, organized Betel, and other stuffs. Of course,  Balkans people have to learn something from German brother about discipline and hard work, from Italian we can learn about other stuffs too, like more freedom in emotions and cordiality, in fashion :)))).  But in Croatia we also have North and South, and diversity in people's characteristics.  

Yes, this part of Europe is perhaps 100 years late about many things western countries have. But if One Spirit Guiding God's People does it mean making Uniformity of diversity?

And one curiosity at the end. One German brother, in Croatia Betel, high position, said many years ago how we don't need make prayer if food not cost more than 1 DM (Deutsche Mark), all that is more of 1 DM need our prayers. :))) Well, Western Spirit want to teach Balkans Spirit how things have to be. Very Inspirational :))) 

17 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Should we instead begin praying for the world leaders fo be blessed so as to succeed in bringing better conditions?

This is  good one. In both ways; funny and serious. 

First; Is it possible that this advice from Bible, praying for kings of the world, will bring needed change?

Second: Is it possible to believe in next Bible verse: And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.

8 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I do it is fair to make the “worldly education system” take responsibility for the world that is has collectively created.

Everyone who "educate" other people need to take responsibility for the world (mini Universe of Organization) that is created. Agree with you.....

And not to send message how "collective" is responsible for wrong understanding of error instruction :))) 

16 hours ago, Anna said:

that some sort of organizational structure is also necessary, especially with a view to the preaching activity...

... after I was read  @JW Insider fine comments i recalled how Bible say that God can make stone to preach instead human. With JW's idea how it is necessary that some Organization MUST exist today, because God have Organization in Heaven, why not than on Earth with two and half main Organizations: JW Old Nation, Apostles Congregation and of course WTJWORG as only legal successor in line with previous two.  

But IF really Stones will preach, I wonder How Would God go to Organize Stones ?! By size, by heaviness, by types, by value ....etc. :)) i know .... this is paradox.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

(Ephesians 4:16) . . .From him all the body is harmoniously joined together and made to cooperate through every joint that gives what is needed. When each respective member functions properly, this contributes to the growth of the body as it builds itself up in love.

But to continue with sort of paradox is if we want to take to much literally this verse about body parts. For example, Hand was and will be Always A Hand. But in JW congregation, or somewhere else in Some Other Sort of Organization, sometimes A Hand come to be A Head.

Let say, Ministerial Servant Pioneer is Encouraged to be A Elder, not necessary A Pioneer Elder. :)) Perhaps he can go to Betel and come to have more Responsibilities ....  and so on.

So in this Kind of Body aka Organization, in WTJWORG or in Congregation, Body Part Illustrations Need another Perspective. Because A Leg will never be a Hand will never be A Head. 

...  harmoniously joined together and made to cooperate ... What is this?

I will go on with Illustrations of Body.  In 1. Corr 12 -  Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. Here we have Idea that is somehow in contradiction with  Organization who want Uniformity and Mirrors in which "separate classes" aka "particular body parts" have to look the same. Auxiliary pioneers need this much hours, Special pioneers different count of hours, member of congregation need to have average number of hours that is in congregation ... and so on ... and so on .... Around The Whole Globe. 

Is this proof of  Harmony or proof of Uniformity??

A) Hours are proof of Uniformity and this is not Gift of Spirit.

B) Love is proof of Harmony and It is Gift of Spirit.

The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” ²² On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 

But in Organization we have classes: Publishers, Ministerial Servants, Pioneers, Elders .... or we can call this Functions ? :))

But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it,²⁵ so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other.

Who have grater honor in the Body? GB, Elders or Sofia ? :)) 

Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?³⁰ Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues^[d]? Do all interpret? ³¹ Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

What is this greater gifts? To prophesies?  Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit,especially prophecy  

Maybe. But i guess person have to be Inspired by Spirit to be able to do this. GB claim; We are not inspired! So as @Witness very well said;  We must admit that it is an abnormal relationship of a spirit inspired organization (“spirit-directed”), to be led by uninspired leaders. John 3:21; 1 John 1:6; Rev 13:11,12,15 (in her topic GERRIT LOSCH - "DO YOU TRUST ME?")

There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them..... All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.....For we were all baptized by^[c] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Inspired or not Inspired ... question is now .....what is better to be?

PS   apologize for long post :))

9 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Did you ever attend standard education?

Like to ask, what is, according to you "standard education" in 140 year history of WT Society? What, how much  of those "standards" that people have to learned before to be called as suitable for "everlasting life", was been rejected and still now this same project/process continue despite all those big claims in the past and still now, how that all before and today is "God's Truth" ?? 

Please do not compare "worldly education system" that JW's think is based on satan manipulation, with "theocratic education system" that is based on GB uninspired errors or still perhaps - Inspired Errors  !!  

47 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

2 Timothy 3:14

You, however, continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from what persons you learned them - nwt

Well now, JW's have a little problem in carrying out this advice, recommendations. How so? Because during the life time of each JW generation, it has changed more than one teaching, or interpretation of that teaching. If JW member want to stay, to stick with "Bible teachings" from some past period of time, he will be spiritually retarded, has not kept pace with the carriage :)))) For JW members this Bible verse is almost impossible to follow, even in some Basic Doctrines of small or big importance.  

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

This can only be seen in retrospect. Humans are subjected to either good influence or bad influence. In both cases, by inspiration. Romans 8:28

An example of this, questioning the oath you swore loyalty by baptism before God.

 

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.” Romans 8:28.

This can only be seen in retrospect. Of course, how else but in retrospective, for many of us. :))

...all things work together for good to those who love God,.. In freedom of thinking and interpretation of this Inspired Words, I would like to say how for some of us, this sort of good can be our living WTJWORG because maybe we are called according to His purpose  to get out. 

An example of this, questioning the oath you swore loyalty by baptism before God.  I hope that you know difference between Oath i gave in 1977 and Oath other people gave from June 1985. ??!!

13 hours ago, Witness said:

We must admit that it is an abnormal relationship of a spirit inspired organization (“spirit-directed”), to be led by uninspired leaders. John 3:21; 1 John 1:6; Rev 13:11,12,15

This is an excellent thought.

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

In short, any Christian group that is of mainstream origin that goes beyond the teachings (i.e. stupid and or silly doctrines, believing the church can be unisex and attempt to defend it, justifying homosexuality, interfaith, etc.) above all, take said teachings and twist it into something entirely different in an extremist way - Believing that Jesus is a woman, believing his church order is unisex, teaching to accept all things even when it is dirty and unclean and going into the extremes about it - is a cult.

The things that you mentioned are more about the content of the doctrines. @Outta Here made specific list about methods of influence on people or on a group of people that is/can be used in variation of intensity and models. 

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

@Srecko Sostar You were and or someone was debated on this before. Christians in general are Prophets not Inspired, and they're spirit led.

So any Christian, in this sense, is a prophet, a proclaimed of God's Word, a preacher and minister of the good news gospel and the Messianic Age.

Thanks for comment, but I disagree :))

Every Prophet must be "Inspired" for reason to be called A Prophet. If he is not then he is Not a Prophet. In this context when using word Prophets, i guess, is about Bible Prophesies. And as such, Bible Prophets was Inspired by JHVH. Every True Bible Prophets was INSPIRED by JHVH, as they state. But every False Bible Prophets was also Inspired. Don't you think the same? Question is by who? By devil spirit or by Own spirit?

Perhaps such person (Christians in general) is just someone Who Repeat Other People Words. And if he, in this repeating of Old Prophets Words going Further, to Let Say: Interpret Prophet's Words by giving Explanation and Time of fulfillment or Way how Words would/will be Fulfilled... than such person or Christians or Organization or Church is .... what?  

..... Spirit Led?? :))

As I said in preamble, we can speaking (for now) about 3 sort of spirit: divine, demonic and human. AND ALL THREE have the same quality, they can INSPIRE. And by that reason when GB of WTJWORG said how they are not Inspired, they said wrong. Because they are Inspired ... by some of this three spirits, and also in variation of influence made by this three spirits on people in one Organization.   

4 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

No problem Srecko. As long as you know your stupider than me and uneducated about scripture just as much as most people here, We understand each other. 😏

You mean like in a movie serial Dumb and Dumber :)))))

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

This is why I criticize those that criticize the Watchtower, Srecko. There is no end to the stupidity here.

Apologize in advance :)) but you also sometimes giving your contributions and increasing that "stupidity" :))

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Tom used the most basic ones to illustrate. Of course, there are far more than the ones quoted, that set the Watchtower apart from Christendom.

Oh,  you think, perhaps about; Shepherd - secret book for elders, or monthly service report, tablets and little vehicle full of publications on streets :))))) these for sure are not just Basic teachings/instructions but very unique to JW religion :)))   

On 6/18/2019 at 4:56 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

The essential doctrines of Jehovah’s Witnesses that distinguish them from any other religion have been solidly established for over 100 years: teachings that the Trinity is unscriptural, for example, and that the soul does not live on after death. These are the important points that one should focus on. No one else figured it out.

I found this: 9 Faith Groups That Reject the Trinity - https://www.learnreligions.com/faith-groups-that-reject-trinity-doctrine-700367

I believe how same is with immortal soul. JW's are not only one who have this teachings. 

6 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Once again Srecko, what you are doing, is giving yourself excuses to justify your own animosity toward a group of men vested, only to do God’s work.

²² Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

²³ And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

6 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Let me know where in scripture Jesus wasn’t criticized? Let me know where in scripture, some apostles didn’t ERR before Christ?

Let me know where in this forum i wasn't criticized? You doing that almost in every comment.  :))

And why you had need to changing @JW Insider name, for example? Because of one letter. Do you think how letters J and W is holy if it is together (JW), and how people who have J and W in name have to believe in particular dogmas? Why, please, why you downsize level of discussion in personal animosity toward this or that person? If you consider some of us not worth to hear because of "stupidity" or because "lack of spirituality" or because of "someones secret agenda" then please, change the strategy. This what  you doing, Not Working.

20 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Jeopardy question.

For who?

This all conversation is about GB statement; We are not inspired, Our study on Bible is not inspired, Our articles are not inspired. We can err.

Than ... How they could/will be leaded, guided, learned by God and/or by his Spirit if even little piece, little measure of spirit through Inspiration was not/are not "shadow" them?   If they not receiving Inspiration from God...All their hard spiritual work is of human source, and result of human inspiration. 

Or we can go to use this logic.

If 20%, 10% or 5% of teachings in WTJWORG is indisputable truth, reason for that is because holy spirit revealed that truth to this human. Revelation comes through Inspiration, i guess.  Or, somebody can give other perspective?!

If 80%, 90% or 95% of teachings in WTJWORG is harmful chatter, reason for that is .....:)))) we all know the answer, or at least can give a assumption. :))

30 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Jesus, didn’t need to learn anything formal. He received God’s Holy Spirit to once again remind him of who he was before. His was lead to continue his father’s work on earth.

Ok, but in His case, it seems how He wasn't need to follow advice "He gave" 2000  years later to His FDS aka GB in WT magazine, the 3 step model: empowered by spirit - assisted by angels - guided by God’s Word?. You using gospel reports to show how He Received holy spirit. When someone Received is that same as to be Inspired?? Received=inspired??!! I don't mind and can join you in this idea. But, problem stays with GB and WTJWORG. Did they Receiving holy spirit in the same way as Jesus did? Again, you state how JW's and GB not need formal education because THEY also like Jesus are Received, are Guided, are Learned, are Empowered, are Lead by Spirit of God.

If it is so and If we want to believe that it is so...., how then this same spirit who acts in the same way with the same effect on people of blood and flesh (Jesus and FDS) bringing so different results?? Why you or somebody else want to eliminate negative results "of god's spirit" that is visible after GB left the conference room at Wednesday, and releasing error teachings for Jesus sheep worldwide?? 

And please, don't say; Jesus was perfect, GB is not. Because if you think so, you would claim, in fact, how holy spirit is not strong enough to help imperfect people. :))

15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

We humans often tend to be foolish and think that turning doctrines into some philosophical/exegetical  exercise is somehow more important to Jehovah than justice, mercy, love, humility, etc.

justice, mercy, love, humility, etc.

This beautiful things you mentioned ... for sure are something that is effect, output (or in Bible terminology Fruit of Spirit) of Inspiration made by Spirit on Human. And also it  is something that can Inspire people around you or around somebody who shine with this beautiful wealth/richness.

And as i mentioned before, we can look, I am looking, on this in two way.

One is: Divine Inspiration in Direct way and in Real time moment made by Power Above.

Another is: Divine Inspiration that already Existing in us, in our blood in our cells, from long time ago and waiting for our permission, our will,  the right moment of our readiness in our deep soul, to be expressed and to be seen on day light. 

13 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Well, you made the argument kind of difficult to understand

On 6/18/2019 at 12:01 AM, BillyTheKid46 said:

This is why Jesus never became a formal rabbi with scholarly works. He didn’t need to, just like we don’t need to.

You made comparison of this kind: He didn’t need to (learn in schools), just like we don’t need to.

Well, let put subject again: Because, according to your words, JW's in general and especially all elders with GB as Top Management not need formal education in religious matters, because as you made statement, this people is like Jesus already equipped with needed credentials, questions are: Does this way of getting knowledge, understanding and good fruits is because that all was been result of Inspiration by spirit OR is it result of 3 step model (empowered by spirit? assisted by angels? guided by God’s Word?) ?

Because, WTJWORG explains that this two is not the same. And here you said how  Jesus and JW's archived all this spiritual quality and quantity in the same manner/same way.

I found this view, if it is yours too, as wrong. Was Jesus "Empowered" or "Guided" or "Inspired" by holy spirit. In fact, because Jesus came to Earth from Above as Firstborn who already have ALL Power and Authority and All Spirit, in fact He can spread that Spirit as holy spirit onto, into, on others around Him.

What is difference when WT magazine say: empowered by spirit and guided by Word? But  also using terminology "we are not Inspired by spirit but we are Guided by spirit?!  

Who or What doing what  ??? influence on GB? Somehow, according to explanation they made, to Them, sometimes inspired and guided have different meaning, sometimes the same. And in this WT magazine they put new terminology - empowered.

Very confusing, but perhaps they have such intention to confuse people.  :)))

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Yes many times when i was a servant of the JW Org. And yes I was lying. Because I did not 'make sure of all things' first.

We, ex JW's, were all been part of this, and told to people in preaching service things that we now consider untrue and in fact lies (no matter about motives of those who generate some teaching, doctrine, dogma, instruction). 

As to "make sure of all things". I think, at first thought, how this process in individual, personal work (study, deeper thinking, searching ...etc) about something, some religious subject, has been limited by/because of our exposure to WTJWORG influence, our naive trust in people who "knew more", our believe and too much confidence in interpretations made in publications. Well, in fact we are making our selves to be sure of - in all things presented in WT magazines and books :)))   

To do this "make sure" work, JW's should go in all directions for searching to answers and for pro et contra argumentation. It is Wrong Idea/Perspective, how JW already found The Truth, so Why going uselessly to spend time and effort in additional verification, when Bible Scholars already done research in Betel? So, when from platform they say, by quoting Bible verse - "make sure of all things", they don't encourage you to go for INDEPENDENT sources, but to reading more and more of WT publication.

Somehow, John, You and I, get out from this Circle. :)) and some other people here too, to not forget to tell. :))

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I'd say that Rutherford, the "chairman" and primary member of the "Governing Body" that had begun in 1919, must have truly believed in 1925. Similarly with several remaining mistakes --still based on a faulty set of chronology beliefs-- the current GB are not lying, they are mistaken.

Did you, John, never say something that was not true, because you really believed it was true at the time, and then found out later that it wasn't? Were you lying?

You highlight very good, important thing.

If somebody truly believe in some idea, own idea or idea from other source, or if somebody "read particular idea" from other people words, statements, views and so on... then, if he individually spread such idea to other people in "good faith", he is not "lying", but he can be one in a chain of those who unknowingly/unconsciously spreading misleading/mistake. Because he thinking about that same (false) thing as truthful and real, as something good and worth to have.

What happened when this person repeatedly doing this "unconscious spreading" of same Principe (Principe of various errors in different time point, through his life time)? If he never come to flash of light and come to be "conscious" about such repeated (spiritual) behavioral pattern in himself and in other to whom he show respect and trust, than he is deceived and blind to see. 

But if source of errors and if the receiver of the errors continue to doing this, and in same moment something inside them/him sending warning signals, this is time to make A/The Stop (or simple to STOP). Because if he didn't ...it can be said how from that Point he/they begins to spread a lie, on purpose /even with various levels of power and strength of persuasion.