Srecko Sostar

13 hours ago, The Librarian said:

The end is close. I can feel it.

 

Close/Near For Whom? 

6 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Exactly how the Watchtower views are with certain things, while spiritual matters can be taken care of by the Elders through wisdom and discernment.The leaked BOE letters are a testament to that.

Some JW people say how leaked BOE letters are apostate's fraud, are not true and that are falsification ?! 

So, whom we shall trust now? To leaked BOE letters or to your statement how exactly these leaked BOE letters are testament to prove something? 

Are you able to provide ORIGINAL BOE letters for purpose to resolve this dilemma?

6 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

You cannot state how Matthew 18 would be applied by your standard without understanding the REST of scripture.

When wise man asked Jesus what is the greatest  God's Command, Jesus not say what He say (Love God and Love Neighbor) and than continue to talking another few hours to talking about CONTEXT from Hebrew Scriptures.    

YOU DO NOT NEED MORE of CONTEXT THAN IT IS GIVEN BY JESUS' WORDS --- LOVE GOD, LOVE NEIGHBOR. 

Scribes and Pharisees would like some more explanations and context, as in question, "Who is my neighbor?"

AND LITTLE REMINDER FOR YOU DEAR BILLY. JESUS VERY WELL EXPLAINED WHO IS YOUR NEIGHBOR. This is not only your JW brother from congregation. 

Same is with Mathew 18. If Jesus personal words inspired by JHVH need more "context and understanding from the REST of Scripture" .... than i can't do nothing more for you :)) 

5 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Keep in mind what the context is: If Your Brother Sins Against You

Partially you are right, .......BUT do not forget fact that eliminate your logic.

All sin against God are also sin against all things what God has created (in this case your brother). 

All sin against things what God has created (in this case your brother) is also sin against God. 

Because God created your brother/neighbor, He as his Creator is also sad, injured, stricken with injustice act you done against your neighbor or brother.   

So, all "general" sins are sins against God. All "personal" sins are sins against God too. I made two terminology ("general" and "personal" sins) because of for your way of thinking. Sins are sins no mater who doing it or to whom is directed. God is Judge for all sins of all people, not just for your JW brother. 

Jesus' teachings are possible to using in every religion and in every society, not only inside JW congregation. By that, i think, have an opinion, how God will not measure JW sins in different way than sins from Catholics, Mormons or Atheists. :)))

9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Well the scripture says speak to the congregation. But if a brother or sister did speak to the congregation they would be accused of 'causing a division in the congregation' 

Of course that problem is sensible in every way and angle.

For example: I get drunken (to what level drunk?), once or in few occasion. And others witnessed to that. And because it is easier, they comment that in their group and rumors start. Let say, one of them decide to report my behavior to elders because he is "righteous one" and his conscience not allowed any more to see me in congregation having public talk, with knowledge i love to drink. After that elders decide to speak with me. 

Now you have this position. Elders and few of others know about your "problem". How you look like in their eyes? Let say how only 2 elders know that and few witness of my drinking, and perhaps few more because people love to talk. Well, one part of congregation already know something about me. And they take some position about me in that sense. 

If whole congregation get to know about me and my drinking, what is difference? Number, only that. 

What is important, is not the number of those who know or not know about my drinking. Important is, what congregants would, will thinking and feeling for me after introducing, knowing me in this way. Real "division" inside congregation would come not because of public knowledge what i have done, but because of "division" inside people hearts and minds, who will be able or not be able to endure, bear with - not me - but with themselves, with own hearts and perceptions about life and all inside them and around them. "Spiritual Paradise" would collapsed.  An unrealistic, distorted picture of "reality" would have to come to an end. 

Love your imperfect neighbor, even love your enemy, love your fallen brother is at stake - not artificial unity of congregation!   

:))

Open question for those, as Billy, who disagree with said opinion and understanding on Mathew 18 verses:

Which one is minor, which one is gross?

 Eating forbidden fruit from the tree in the garden? Killing a man? Adultery with a woman or a man? Idolatry? Put people in various sort of slavery? Manipulation with thoughts and emotions of people?     Lying? Overeating? Insincerity? Pride? Stealing? Hate? Unfriendliness? Over drinking? Selfishness?

What of this would you as JW member report to elders? :))

First of all, I thank Librarian for he/she making a new topic (not by my will) from my simple, small, almost insignificant comment which purpose was for different thing and different problematic.

Mentioning US Constitution and 1 Amendment was generally made for some other purpose, connected with context about comment made by @Witness  and @The Librarian response on that.  

But all this (Asked by....)  lead me, motivated to ask further, just for fun of course (and please do not make new Topic from this question :)) ; Do the Forum rules here have to be in Harmony with Bible as Constitution? 

In the religious explanation of what is sin and how to deal with the person who makes the wrong things, the application of Jesus' words within the JW Church says that "minor" sins should be solved between the parties involved, but "greater" sins need to be reported to the elders at the assembly/congregation. This is the official WTJWORG doctrine.

The first dilemma that we are immediately noticed in the theological approach to these biblical paragraphs is seen in the unfounded separation of a certain human act into a small aka minor sin versus great aka big sin. WTJWORG had made a list of sins that were put in to two category by its nature; minor sins and gross sins. And of course there is third element in this issue of sins, and that is when something is questionable to such extension, that at very moment no one of Bible Scholars inside WTJWORG doesn't know the right answer, and as solution such issue is putted into so called "gray zone". 

If we agree in idea how Jesus Teaching/s is/are Sufficient for all "dilemmas" we might have in life than we can see from this Bible verses as follow:

¹⁵ “If your brother or sister^[b] sins,^[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. ¹⁶ But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’^[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. - NIV

¹⁵  “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault* between you and him alone.n If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.o ¹⁶  But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony* of two or three witnesses every matter* may be established.*p ¹⁷  If he does not listen* to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen* even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nationsq and as a tax collector.r - NWT

1) Jesus not have a list of sins, either not making categorization of sins into minor, middle, gross, and so on. 

2) All sins have to be resolved firstly between involved parties (in our days this have to be viewed from other angles in cases of child molestation, for example)

3) Because there is no list of sins: What is viewed as sin in your eyes perhaps is not also a sin in the eyes of your neighbor. So, this first approach to other person may help to established some mutual foundation on someones act. 

4) Speaking about unresolved problem in a wider circle of people can be helpful if involved persons are in capacity to be involved in discussion. Word "witnesses" here refers of people who are able to testify about all what was said between you and him/her, you two who have problem. These are not witnesses of "wrongdoing".   

5) Making issue public is third step here. Public. Congregation is that public, not 1,2 or 3 elders. In front all congregation. 

6) If things are not resolved and you as plaintiff, claimant are not sattisfaied, or if whole congregation is against "sinner", how such person have to be treated? As man of nation and tax collector. How Jesus treated men of nation and tax collectors? Answer is clear to me. Is it to you?  

John 18:36

"Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world; if it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now, My kingdom is not of this realm.” 

In JW Broadcasting for March 2019 moderator used this verse and explained in 11:17 of video:  Because the Kingdom of Jesus is not of human origin, it does not need human defenses.

After such bold claim of GB Helper i need to ask: Why Jesus' "Earthly Part of The Kingdom", in the form of a WTJWorg organization, having lawyers and the Legal Department? WT lawyers dealing with defenses, actually, of various kinds. They are engaged in defending the Kingdom's interests here on Earth, representing the King and his Kingdom in front of the secular authorities and courts, leading legal battles for the freedom of religious expression in the name of Jesus, defending individuals or groups of JW believers, and the like. The Legal Department has the task to preserve, to defend all material goods allegedly belonging to the King of Jesus, from those who oppose the Kingdom and the Kingdom.
So, this word, to defend, nowadays takes on, obviously, a different meaning from what Jesus was said and showed in the words and in practical event, quoted at the beginning. It seems that some people feel the need and the obligation to defend Jesus by defending all the things that they think is related to Jesus and what supposedly belongs to Jesus. 

If Jesus Kingdom IS NOT from this World, why believers aka JW Lawyers have strong need to do, in fact, OPPOSITE of  Jesus' Teaching revealed in Bible? Why to defense Persons, Church, Organization, Material Possessions, who/which all IS FROM this World?

Jesus' Kingdom EXISTED already in 1 Century, because Jesus gave claim: "My Kingdom is not of this world". He is not speaking about His Future Kingdom, but about that one that existed in His days. If He was King, and He was, because he claimed that he had Kingdom while He was said this in front apostles - MY KINGDOM. 

Jesus told Peter, DO NOT DEFEND ME, and DO NOT DEFEND MY KINGDOM, ....... BECAUSE I KNOW HOW TO DEFEND MYSELF AND MY KINGDOM!

54 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

@Witness last warning.

learn to start new threads and follow topic titles or find a new forum.

What does your post have to do with alcohol AT ALL???

I too could make ANY post about my love for tacos makes me talk about tacos on everybody else's topics.

Have you tried marinated pork tacos at bethel? they are SO good.

Oh and did you know that JW's are anti-tacos because they follow 8 men called the GB?

Just friendly observation on terminology you used - last warning !

I think how, with this warning, you can easily find yourself on the path of the violation of the First Amendment.

 The First Amendment prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, ....

Well, your Forum Rules have to be in Harmony with US Constitution. :))

If participants of this topic find no interest to make any response to "out of topic" comments, than the Group alone will make Natural Selection of things they will or will not speak. "Market Law" will bring own "Rule" or "Warning" and perhaps some of comments will not go further, and by that will stay alone and lonely as they never been said.

2 hours ago, Anna said:

My McAfee warns me to download this is dangerous - viruses and spyware. 

.... viruses and spyware and ex JWs  or apostates :)))))

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Four pressed their clothes with bricks so as not to waste electricity on ironing.

amazing method :)) Did their women know and support such inventive idea ? Did four of them ironing clothes in this manner to other people in Bethel too, and to their wife's especially? What were the reactions/responds/ from bro/sis?

Did Bethel elders, Committee introduce this as standard for ironing and reject electric machines? Did they buy bricks of all shapes and of various weights, or consider to buy some concrete bricks?   

This stories come to be LEGENDS? And this is how false come to be true :)))

Thanks for this  stories Tom.

I have nothing against nice accommodation.

Think, about giving Vow of Poverty for living inside modern building that cost millions of $.

Those who living and preaching in poor countries are closer to such Vow, i think :))

Internet sources.

NOT JW explanation:

1) Furthermore, another perspective motivating people to take the vow of poverty is the sheer inequality in the world. Rather than simply acknowledging the existence of poverty, individuals who take the vow gain first-hand experience, an experience that may better equip them to aid the poor in the future.

2) A vow, taken by members of some religious orders to renounce all personal property; everything they possess being used for the common good.

JW explanation:

What is involved in serving under the simple Vow? It means that those in special full-
time service have formally entered into an arrangement in which they agree to expend their full-
time efforts toward the advancement of a religious goal. It also means that they are doing so
without any expectation of being paid, as one would be in a secular setting. Members can enter
into this arrangement because the Order sees to it that each member's basic necessities of life are
cared for. Although the term "poverty" is used in the Vow, this does not mean that the
Governing Body is asking you to relinquish ownership in property that you now possess or that
you may acquire in the future. Rather, this expression means that you agree to forego the
expectation of being paid for your endeavors while serving in the Order and that you also agree
to not seek gainful employment while serving in the Order. As those of you who have devoted
many years to special full-time service can verify, this is the arrangement under which special
full-time servants have been living for many years, even prior to the time when this arrangement
was formally documented through the signing of a previous vow.
Concerning point six of the Vow, sources of income other than work are not affected by
being under this Vow. It does not pertain to income such as interest from bank accounts or
bonds, dividends from stocks, rent received from property owned by the member, and other

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income unrelated to present personal efforts. It does not apply to gifts, inheritances, or
other
unsolicited benefits, which a member of the Order may receive from time to time. Any of you
who are receiving income from possessions are not required to turn these monies over to the
Order, although you should be aware that (his income is no doubt subject to taxation.
In summary, reading prayerfully and signing the Vow does not mean that you cannot own
property or that you have determined to donate all your material possesions to the Order. Rather,
it documents that you have agreed to serve Jehovah as a special full-time servant, serving in
cooperation with others in the Order, without expectation of financial gain. and that you have
determined to refrain from any gainful activity while in Jehovah's special full-time service.
We are pleased to present you with this direction from the Governing Body and trust that
this letter answers any questions you may have. However, please feel free to write to the branch
office if you have any remaining inquiries.

In late 1990, i guess,  i was in Vienna Bethel, had a little role in summer Convention Drama, so two or three days of recording. In that time they had one part of basement full of various sort of beer. I do not remember prices, it depends on what sort of beer in glass bottle (0,5 liter) you choose. But to us, from Croatia,  that was very surprising. For some boys (brothers) gladly surprise. :))  

"We are not  inspired but we are guided" .... by Spirit  (FireWater as would American Indians said in cowboy movies)

Some Bethel people has rich relatives, renting apartments, houses, has some spared money from aside.... and similar.

Vow of poverty is funny instrument, and why to apply that on people who has nothing? IF they really has nothing?! Why somebody who came to Bethel to work and is single and poor, has poor family, no real estate, no money, only clothes on him/her.... WHY would such person to be obligated to give Vow of Poverty?? What is purpose of such Vow? How looks like this WT "Vow"? What Bethel member promises-declare in that Vow?

Mr Tony's coming to liquor store to buy so many bottles of strong beverage proves that he is mere imperfect human who running Corporations with other humans, similar to him. This showed how his job is hard sometimes and he need meaning to relax sometimes, and to drink glass of whiskey is helpful sometimes. Or to seat alone in bar seat with glass of Cognac is what man need sometimes, too.

But bar is more expensive. So, in fact he spare money (donation or his own) by shopping in big market, in big package, on Sunday when prices are little down.  

:)))

9 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

And what an atheist knows about it, if even witnesses have a hard time understanding the causes.

Ups ..... :)) jumping high

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

The problem they have is with people like me

People here are welcome to have strong attitude and beliefs. Well, we all are problems, not solutions. :)))  

13 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Well, don’t give her a hard time, whatever you do. 

haha, you speaking as one elder after i send my Letter of dissociation to Betel. Elders try for months to arrange meeting with me by telephone contact, and not want to tell me why, that they will tell me on meeting (of course, reason was  because i was put 2 post on my G+ profile with Critical Thoughts about GB).

It is very Interesting fact how i stopped to go on meetings from 1 January 2015 and not giving reports about field service. Not single telephone call for some 6 months, to say simple hello or call for coffee - to show some "brotherly love" (which i probably would not accept anyway) but they could not even know my reaction in advance :)))), so they show some of their REAL faces.

Not need to mentioned how one Betel elder try to arrange this meeting by telephone, with him and other elder and me, to discuss about "something" what made them worried (my 2 G+ posts). That make me sure how they Intentionally keek, peek, spy my internet activity and "preparing terrain for Judicial Committee ". But i "played my game" because of common knowledge about how such meetings with 2 and later with 3 elders would be. So, i made my letter, done verification of my Statement by Notary Public and in proper time for me i was sending/published it to JW members in ex congregation mostly and to Betel. And later via internet on some public forums, blogs.

But why told you all this. Because your advice to not give hard time to my wife. In telephone call from Judicial Committee elders on the day they waiting/expecting me to come, and in the same week they received my Letter, because 2 of elders working in Betel so they was aware how i disf. myself few months earlier. Well, one elder made some sort of warning me to not making hard time to wife aka not to "persecute" her. I thought in my mind, oh dear god, you are the people who will shun and ignore me, you are the people who told congregation to destroy my Letter and to stop have anything with me, and now you have nerve to warn me to not make some trouble to her. HEHE, i am the one who TOLERATE you more than YOU tolerate others, and in this situation YOU are People who PERSECUTE me because of my decision to leave WTJWORG. 

Well TTH, if you will be in same situation to tell this words again, to someone else as advice/plead, Please, DO NOT. It looks funny, needlessly and somehow absurd, almost bizarre. WTJWORG is Organization who shows Extremism on this issue. You are not "extremist" in that sense.           

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

How is it out there where you are?

Sincerely, I don't know how it is this days. Till 2015 nothing about similar activity in Croatia ever heard. Much sure it is the same today. My wife is JW but talking nothing about "spiritual" things, and that  it is "normal" according to elders instructions :)))haha. And i don't ask. All is on internet anyway :))))  I only meet sometimes some old and new faces standing with publications while i am going through the town. 

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

cleanups of public areas

Old good charity works, volunteering. More work less talk, i agree!

It can be said how JW members generally reject the possibility that abuse occurs within the organization, and if that is a very rare case. 

On the other hand, they believe that the JHVH spirit will purify the organization in a way that will reveal to the elders the secret sins of such people and then they will expelled such from the congregation to remain congregation "clean".

If the spirit of JHVH God reveals sins in WTJWORG, than the question arises as to, which spirit reveals the same sort of sins of people in the Catholic Church?

I am an amateur in all and each areas of life. But as I understand climate change issue, the causes can be found in astronomy processes and in anthropological processes.

Scientists speak differently than the official doctrines of the JW Church. Eg. The JW Church says that the Flood (Noah's day) was a great, global climate change caused by the action of God (not human, not Universe aka Sun, Moon, Stars and similar). This great global change, according to this interpretation, was not caused by the action of mankind on the nature and life of the planet Earth, nor was it the result of some astronomical activity and/or normal processes in the very life of Earth itself. 

-precession of the Earth's axis (period of about 20,000 years)
-changes in the inclination of the Earth's axis (period of about 40,000 years)
-change the shape of the Earth's path around the Sun (period about 100,000 years)

Not so long ago, JW claimed that every day of creation lasted 7,000 years. Some older JW still believe it, perhaps. A small release from a theme with an illustration of the dinosaurs: 

When did the dinosaurs live?

The Bible describes sea and land animals as being created during the fifth and sixth days, or epochs, of creation. * (Genesis 1:20-25, 31) Thus, the Bible allows for the appearance and existence of dinosaurs over a lengthy period of time.

What happened to the dinosaurs?

The Bible does not comment on the disappearance of the dinosaurs. However, it does state that all things were created “because of [God’s] will,” so God clearly had a purpose for making dinosaurs. (Revelation 4:11) When that purpose was fulfilled, God allowed the dinosaurs to become extinct. - https://www.jw.org/hr/biblijska-ucenja/pitanja/dinosauri-u-bibliji/

In my early period of being JW it was normal to believe how Dinosaurs was died in Noah Flood. In those time was Normal Official Doctrine to believe how each Creation Period was 7 000 years. So, by such old WT Doctrinal logic, Dinosaurs was  old about 14 000 years and all died in Great Flood. Not millions of years as Science was told people. Today, JW Church not denied any more how Earth can be old UNKNOWN PERIOD of YEARS. That in other words means how it is possible that Earth and Life on it was OLD for MILLIONS of years.

Perhaps we can found few ideas, possibilities on climate and life on Earth. And how "predictions" and Interpretations on predictions by WTJWORG is just one of interpretations.

What does this all have with involvement, participation of JW Church and their members in activity about Environment and Climate on Earth? :)) 

9 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Your people are the ones who cannot agree on how many genders there are.

sorry for my  haha to your post, but have to ask you, what "gender" issue have with this topic, and what my position on "gender" issue (if i have any position at all) have with this what i am thinking about JW and their passivity on climate movements in society?

10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

We're all to blame.

In various degrees of responsibility.

10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

And surely it must count for something that Jehovah's Witnesses aren't among those who caused the mess in the first place. 

Normal statement, also this is true for many other non JW people.

10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“This [JW belief that God's Kingdom only can permanently solve earth's environmental woes] leads to the undeniable fact that Witnesses take almost no initiative towards making the world we live in a better place in any way:” someone tries to sell me that line. Hogwash!

WT publications openly teaching members to not be active in any social, ......etc. involvement for Changing this World (only when freedom of speech and religion is issue) 

10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Not to oversimplify, but if the entire population were Witnesses, there would be no need for efforts to make the world we live in a better place.

Sorry, but in this sort of "conclusion" you advocate and call for, how all JW Society, even in this State/Condition of existence (in all aspects of regulations that exist inside WTJWORG Organization)  is the Only Group on Earth that is Imperfectly Perfect. Even (according to religious ideas based on WT publications) only worth to live on Earth. And  how there would be no need for efforts to make the world we live in a better place. This is pretentious and belong to arrogant statement - in my opinion :))).