Srecko Sostar

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

They do take a stand. They have categorically renounced violence

Sorry, but i can not resist to make little fun on this, with question: Do they (JW) sending Letters to some government, political group or major of town where people and structures not protecting LGBT community enough  or not protecting at all? 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What is wrong with you?

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

In my opinion, someone who has been a Witness should not ask a question as stupid as the day is long.

Mine stupidity is great :))))) because, as i know, JW members, congregations or WT-HQ, Betel's,  NOT sending Letters pro, in behalf of non -JW people who suffer under some system.

Answer why,is in WTJWorg publications. 

But Letters to Politicians about JW in Russia is ok to send.

It is not about my wrongs, but ....:))))

By now, news of the vicious anti-LGBT campaign in the Russian republic of Chechnya has made its way around the world. The evidence is clear. Hundreds of men have been detained, beaten, humiliated and tortured — for the sole offense of being who they are. Russian reporters have confirmed at least three extrajudicial killings. Victims continue to share horrific accounts of torture facilities. The Chechen government’s efforts to deny its crimes are less than convincing. “You cannot detain and persecute people who simply do not exist in the republic,” as one spokesman put it. - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/democracy-post/wp/2017/04/25/eastern-europe-must-break-its-silence-on-russias-anti-gay-campaign/?utm_term=.d267c18b498e

Would WTJWorg take stand for rights of these community too? They are also "persecuted" by the King of the North, and their human rights are violated.

Inside WTJWorg comunity rules not allowed this way of living for people who are what they are, who not fit in. WTJworg  bans that this sort of people come to be JW members and live and practice their way of living. Is this religious stand also sort of "extremism", Patriot law based on religious beliefs?  

Also, as another examples for illustration, we can count this - WTJWorg intolerant view; on worldly education, interfaith marriage, some medical treatments, social contacts with unbelievers (only for purpose of preaching). Very, very poor or complete lack of charity work for non JW community (preaching is not charity work).  

So, if WTJWorg are firm and ready to defend their view on who and how can be part of their community, WHY is so problematic for JW people to recognize and accept how similar and same right have Russian community, nation?

Answer is; have, get your own country, territory and Land Law that suits to your Way of living and Beliefs. 

31 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

in a land where the constitution says they can be Jehovah’s Witnesses but the law says they can be Jehovah’s Witnesses as long as they are not Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Sort of Patriot law, or anti-terror legislative as in other countries. Question is, what inspired, motivated Russian government to put JW on list. JW people "preaching"? JW Religious legislative and teachings can be in some aspects recognized as "extremism". And they are. So, why to be so surprised with measures of states? They protect their interests, as WT protects their interests too.

9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It’s pretty well documented that they may removed literature from their Kingdom Halls

Possible.  Do you know where they removed literature? In recycling paper boxes? Or in basements?  

9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

When police did find some at Kingdom Halls, security cameras clearly showed they had planted it there themselves.

Maybe police playing this game with "theocratic warfare" rules. 

57 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

They have conformed to all laws,

What reports, who confirms this claim?

JW literature was always give reports and experience how members obeyed more god aka organizational WT instructions than governments. Secret meetings, secret preaching, secret transport of publications, hiding of all sorts. JW History not supports claim you presented.

I am living Witness, because lived in part of the world where JW activity was cca 2/3 free, 1/3 not tolerated.

1 hour ago, Indiana said:

President Vladimir Putin admitted as much. When asked why his government targeted JWs, Putin dismissed the charge. But, he admitted, “our society does not consist solely of religious sects. Ninety percent of citizens of the Russian Federation or so consider themselves Orthodox Christians. . . . It is also necessary to take into account the country and the society in which we live.” Translation: JW’s are different and don’t fit in. This attitude also may explain attacks

Violence of all sort is unacceptable, intolerable. But, we all participate in it in some way, to some extent. Think about it!!

Now please, go to past and recall how God's chosen people, named Israel, dealt with people who didn't fit in their society. 

Now, go in today reality of another God's chosen people aka Jehovah's Witnesses. In their society the  rules     are based on similar or same "principles". Person from out side, aka "worldly people", or "questionable" member, don't fit in also. Yes, JW members do not put problematic member or ex-JW into prison, Siberia etc, but they also have "violent" methods on how to deal with such one. These methods are shunning, ignoring, conditioning.

Yes, exposing another man, your neighbor, even family member, to such types of church punishments because he/she do not fit to your religious ideas and customs (doctrinal matters) is showing strong violence and cruelty, with same or similar effects as physical violence.  

If some JW people try to look in desired future time, according to his/her hope, then we have another level of possible violence that major group, aka all JW worshipers in New World, will show to all individuals who will not fit to JW picture of life in Paradise under JW Society Condition. And what that will be, how will it look like? Maybe we can found out something from history and present time of all this God's Worshipers! 

If JW religion is ready to accept baptism of underage /minor children (5-17 year of age) maybe parents and elders will consider how marriage of such children isn't wrong idea too. :)))) 

If this children are able (read - mature) to make decision of dedication to God (for a life time), so what can be hard/difficult for them to dedicate life in marriage to other person? What a logic?! haha 

22 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Unfortunately, people think it’s so simple to run a big corporation, and the corporation isn’t governed by local, state and federal laws. At least in the US. Oh Well!

quote fact 1) people think it’s so simple to run a big corporation,

quote fact 2)  people think ...., and the corporation isn’t governed by local, state and federal laws.

If i understand enough what you said, i am coming to conclusion how God have very hard, complicate job in running WT big corporation (emphasize is on "big"). And also, how God must be careful how to run WT,  because He's corporational decisions need to be in harmony with local, state and federal laws.

So much about "spirit directed/guided organization". :)))

In WTJWorg  case, when they talking about "spirit" who directing  WTJWorg organization, they mean - JHVH God is that one who directing -guiding  organization.  But, after reading comments by JW people, we see how they assure us of true reality: how, in fact, some people and local, state and federal laws directing this big organization. 

Thanks to all JW defenders who by this sort of defending WTJWorg reveals us how things works. And more important Revelation is, how some JW members participating here "have little or no FAITH at all, that God's Spirit Directing their Organization. Coming From their mouth, not from "apostate" or "worldly" mouth.

11 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Just like any other religion. How many religions will give you full access to their own private practices and procedures?

You made an excellent point ... WTJWorg is: just like any other religion. 

So, it seems how my bible verse answer is less important for you or any other person similar to you because, subconsciously, you accept second reality about JW religon, and that is .... just like any other religion and corporation. 

By this claim of your how WTJWorg basically Operate just like any other religion, JW idea how your organization is spirit-guided coming to next level conclusion. WTJWorg is under same "spirit guidance" just like any other religion.

Next question about what is needed to think is: Does "spirit" guiding so called organization as legal entity, or real question is: Does "spirit" guiding person/persons in some social group?

If second is real answer, and I believe it is, than problem is not society, organization or corporation itself, but leadership.

By that "spirit-guided organization", in this case WTJWorg not existing and it is impossible to exist, because "spirit, spirits" of any sort is not interesting to have influence on imagine legal or illegal entity of any sort, but main task of any sort of "spirit, spirits" is to have influence, power OVER PERSON or GROUP of PERSONS who are or are not "organized". Because "organizing" is creative work of "spirit, spirits".

Important thing that you negate, by laughing on bible verse in Mathew, is in fact that WTJWorg leadership, every single person in that group, and of course every JW member in the World, have to find The Truth about self and than The Truth about other members inside same group (family, friends, congregation etc. ... all long to a Top Hierarchy in Warwick) This sort of Truth is more important, essentially important than (in comparison to) "WT Organizational Doctrinal Truths" about this and that teachings, instructions, rules.   

11 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Therefore, why do you believe the Watchtower should be the "only" organization to disclose everything.

The Truth will set you free ....... that is The Answer on Why :)))

55 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

but also violating secular laws by posting corporate confidential communication. The latest being the shepherd book 2019. I’d like to see that person disfellowshiped. But, it’s not easy to remove someone from the UK branch office without solid proof.

Interesting is how some Corporations giving to their employees a document/contract to sign, how they are obligated to not Reveal to Public this or that (Confidential) Information. So, can somebody answer on question: Did elders or any other WT employees (or "full time servant" of any of WT Order) signed such obligation??  

Second, if WT JWorg and any other WT Corporation around the World claims how they have not CLERGY - LAITY structure, classes, according to Public Claims in WT publications, than there is no need to producing/printing or verbally spreading any kind/sort of "secret spiritual food" that could not be/should not be suitable or recommended to be  read and seen by every single JW member.

EXISTENCE OF WT SECRET PUBLICATIONS, BOOKS AND OTHER VERBAL, PAPER OR DIGITAL DOCUMENTS, THAT ARE DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY IN CONNECTION WITH MEMBERS, PROVES EXISTENCE OF CLERGY - LAITY CLASSES INSIDE JW RELIGION.  

Industrial espionage.

Intellectual espionage.

Intellectual ownership, property.

Spiritual, religious truths. Spiritual food that is free and should be given free, to share it to all people without distinction.

WT Corporation loses money and they need money for many reasons. Beside common methods of collecting money by donation of members they are ready to "earn" money even by suing  people, or other institutions, even states.

Contradiction of this GB directives is revealed by Bible itself. What "intellectual ownership" exist in WT Company??!!       Of What Sort is such intellectual property?? This are: Doctrinal falsehoods, errors, failed ideas, instructional wrongs, misconceptions, flip-flop teachings, futile hope/hopes/hoping for millions of members and other sympathizers. 

Is that "food" worth anything? How much $ you will be ready to pay for past "new light" of WT publications? But JW members give money for similar "intellectual lies" today. Without any doubt! JW members pays with life and with money all such spiritual food from GBfds who "received (error) food for free from "God"", but after GB "Warwick kitchen cooking" they ask for money for distribution/sharing/dispensation process.

 Freely you have received; freely give. Mat 10:8 ....... But NO, they are so called OWNERS of INTELLECTUAL KNOWLEDGE that must be paid. :))))))))

 Shameless and Brazenly!!!

True story or Fictional story for Entertainment and raising/lifting  moral for  Russian JW? 

This JW members put their health and life to big risks and for what? For WT doctrines that will be changed very soon. Interesting.

It would be understandable, to some measure, that JW as one of Christian Denomination, talking about Bible and Jesus Teaching. But to Incorporate, into Jesus Teachings, all WTGB doctrinal Errors, past and present, and future errors that will be visible in future time-frames, and to preaching such things to people in purpose to make them JW members, is tragedy.  

-  link JW Insider provided, quoted this twice:

No deben existir barreras porque los gobiernos y las religiones deben privilegiar la paz en la tierra, afirman

in English; There must be no barriers because governments and religions must privilege peace on earth, they say

In general can agree. But not understand what some/particular JW community has with giving opinion and standpoint about Political matters (The Trump Wall) and Interaction between Political and Religious parties. 

On other side, if reports are true, some immigrants groups, in Germany as i recalled, done serious crimes.  

As it can be seen on picture, Tlaxcala KH have Wall, Fence around building, as many of other houses have too. So what is the reason for talking about borders, barriers and giving "Lessons", to people outside JW community, about how Things should be among so called Worldly Nations?

Hi TTH!

Yes, I should have refrained from commenting on your long post. In that you are right. 

Some Other thoughts you provide are questionable  :)))

And yes, you are right in that how i am not your friend and not friend of JW members. But that is not obstacle for giving my opinion on matters about JW.  

7 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The post is reproduced in its entirety here

OHHH Tom, i hoped that you can tell what you want to tell with 50, 100 or 200 words. But no, you need cca 4 000 words and make me not want to read what you want to say. Perhaps someone else will react different than me. :)))  

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The reason that religious people form corporations is so that they may do things such as own property. The reason that enemies seek to ban them is so they cannot.

The World is one big Corporation, i see. ;))

WT must fight for own Material Possessions like in Brazil. Brazil is good precedent, established by WT.

WT is good and experienced in making new Legal Entities that serve WT interests. So, it is possible to form, let say, Russian-American Cultural Society where people can learn social skills, ethnic music,  knitting etc. All with warm cup of good Russian Tea. And they can make own identity cards for 25 kopejki ( Russian kopéĭka).

Well Tom, you want to assure me how all is about Money and Real-Estate. In fact You are so right, correct.  

23 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Of course, Witnesses can keep their religion. Just keep it in its place. (last place) 

Dear Tom, when  JW religion come to be ONLY religion in the world (as you hopes) than this religion would destroy any potential danger of other way of religious thinking, and not only DFD opponents, but make them to disappear. Or perhaps deport them to some island (New Australia maybe , haha).

In that i find tragedy and irony about WTJWorg "future system".

Today, WT members want all Religious Freedom ...for all (first for self) .

Tomorrow, WT members will persecute all opposite religious opinion, another way of Worship and give NO Religious Freedom to future generation people in NW System/Order.

Today WT implements spiritual killings in shape/model of dfd and shunning. Tomorrow ....??

That is main problem ... not my feelings about different religious affiliations.  

5 hours ago, Witness said:

you have taken by the hand of lawless men, crucified and killed”  Acts 2:21,22

Here we have Russian Government who working their job in protecting their Nation from this and that.

But this is also somehow similar to Malawi when GB instructed brotherhood in that country not to buy ID card aka Party card, because of "neutrality". With such "command" they was responsible (cca: 50% or more GB and 50% or less JW members) for bad outcome for all those who suffered and been killed. WT aka GB, GB aka WT was responsible for people's health and life.

There, in Russia, similar situation took place. Secular authority made decision, justice or injustice, to ban one Religion/Corporation. What choices JW members have. To obey Secular authority or to obey GB? Or to find third way? 

If they find Third way, out of GB instructions, i am very sure how JHVH God will be last Person in Universe who would blame them for Alternative Decisions/Choices.   

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Some do worse things than others.

 

Really, Srecko’s goal is no less ugly than that of persecutors in harsh lands. It is really the same goal.

The mutual goal is that Jehovah’s Witnesses should no longer be Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is that talk about the hope of God’s kingdom should stop, and the grapes already on the vine should wither.

To be sure, their methods differ. It is as though one faction says to another, ‘You’re going about it all wrong!” 

But the goal is the same.

Russian JW bro and sis love each other, i guess, and want to show it in a way to not say names of fellow believers. It is understandable. I guess they are "ready" to give their freedom, health and life for other JW.

But in dry administrative words, we all can agree in idea, how this JW Russian people EXPECTED all this "persecution" and talking to each other about it and talking to people in Field Service how time will come when satan with his people will imprison, kill and beat JW, not only in Russia but in a whole World. Even Convention Programs Alarmed all JW people around the World how such time is very close. And that day has come, for Russian JW (come again in Russia, after USSR era ban and isolation).

In countries where there is no such problems, JW people "eagerly" waiting Armageddon, but when this sort of Armageddon comes on JW people, than all  come to be unhappy and blame satan, evil Government, Police, President etc. Going to UN, OSCE, Strasbourg for help and religious freedom. WT pressing charges and similar. Why, if "prophecies" must be fulfilled? Why if Bible say, "happy are those who are persecuted" ? 

But for what reason? For Justice, Righteousness. Of Christ. "Happy are those who are persecuted because they do what God requires". Not for WT, human religious corporation and organization, requires.    

Again, it is not about to have "JW religion", organization. It is about to have Spirit and Truth, as Witness very well emphasized in her comment.

JW in Russia in purpose to prove how they era not "extremists" must, have to obey restrictions.

So, if bro or sis want to stay in contact with other bro or sis, let them give advice to go for tea or coffee in public place - no secret meetings, no WT literature, books and other documents. Just and Only Your Faith in God! (with possibility to change own perception How such Faith have to Look).  

Mutual encouraging in "hope" for better future not needs any Formal Organization, Formal Meetings, Formal way of Worshiping. Just calm state of mind, faith, hope and WAITING for God (to solve your problem in life time, or to die in peaceful condition in old age).

By openly talking about what you know about JW as religion, and not doing "theocratic warfare" or hiding and lying to agents, police, they can lightening pressure. But because Government decide what have decide this first wave of ban will be ugly for a while.  

Sad because of two reasons.

First, torturing people is evil thing.

Second, JW people thought they have to be "faithful" and not to say names and addresses.

Yesterday i watched documentary (Shooting of Philando Castile https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/21/us/video-police-shooting-philando-castile-trial.html ) about how US police officers are trained, some of them, to shoot people first, and than to see what is going on. Law give them free hand to use gun when ever they think it is necessary to shoot people who have or not have gun. 1 of 4 US citizen have gun, they say. Maybe more than 1. 

So, all kind of governments and officers in it are able to do bad things.   

1 minute ago, Anna said:

So who runs Watchtower?

Very good question! 

Luis XIV quotes , they said, "State, that is me".  Is it part of the doctrine of the Divine right of kings, or at least implicit therein?

Well, by G.L. presumptuously quote, No one have power over me, even WT had not power over me, he gave message how he is King and Priest. In translation on plain, simple English, He say; I am the WT.

In other words Kings need Kingdom to run their power. People can be find anywhere, they are not so important. 

17 minutes ago, Anna said:

You talk as if Losch can act on his own, as if he personally had something to do with that case.

It can be that he had nothing with Jose Lopez vs Gonzalo Campos case.

But with this statement i can say how it is not true. What is Watchtower? Watchtower is First Corporation, Mother, and all other Products of WT entities are Sister companies, or more clearly said, All of them are WT Daughters Companies. Every Single Congregation in The World are in submission to WT and Main Church Body aka GB as Ecclesiastical Body who Run the Show of this religion. WT is Mother organization for all JW members. CCJW and similar Entities or Corporations are just one of Daughters of her Mother aka WT. https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/pc/r1/lp-e/1200276704/0/0

If WT decide to close the KH in your town, in your village - it will be. If WT decide to split your congregation into 2,3,4, 24 pieces - it will be. If WT decide to disband whole congregation - it will be. If WT decide to change way of how Publisher will reporting Field Service it will be .......etc.

WT have means and agents and protocols/system how to dfd JW members for this or that reason. And as in case of R.F. if WT decide to dfd G.L. it will be.

So, GB member G.L. talking stupid things as in No. 9 deposition. He has been and it is now Under WT authority as any other JW member.