Srecko Sostar

Sorry, Institutional problem of pedophilia inside JW religion is not so called "personal matters". Because, this child molestation "disease" is not sporadic event in 1 or 2 case. Institution, in this case WT, made it to be general, worldwide matter/problem for all JW comunity and secular society in which this JW community living and working as citizens and as active preachers who invite people to join JW organization. Is it "polite" to invite people to join organization with promises how this religion offer them safe and peaceful environment and justice in living inside The Church aka Congregation, but in the same time not giving a warning what is going on. Stupid things? What "stupid things" made by teenagers have with child molestation we talking about here? Some "stupid things" can be called stupid, but also can made young people going to wrong way whole life. Some kids just get drunken, or having intimate adventure, some other torturing animals and other kids. What of this and many more deeds, we should or have to call as "just stupid things"? But again, child molestation is not "stupid things", so your commenting this way is out of subject and totally weird.

No problem! I never said how JW religion is full of pedophiles, and i don't think in that way about JW. So, please calm down emotions and mood about me or others who not talking this way, but you put how that it is. This is double sword statement. Few of interviewed elders in front ARC said how they not remember many things about cases or how they have not any notes or how they destroyed some of those notes. It would take much time for me to go again and find video for this, maybe me or someone else will do that, but i think my recall on this matter is ok. On other side, if JW administration is so responsible, pedant and efficient in collecting this specific notes (with other sort of notes about members too) it is strange that NOT SINGLE ONE episode in JWBroadcasting or WT publications NOT made TRANSPARENT AND OPEN, SINCERE INSIGHT for JW and non JW readers and viewers about ARC, or any other multi millions $ fines made on WT and some other WT Legal Entities who was responsible for mishandling about issues. Also how is possible that this "an advanced system of tracking sinners" (JW members who repeatedly molesting JW children) is failed so much, (in Australia with 1006 molesters) DESPITE ELDERS NOTES and CIRCULATING of Top Confidential Information's inside "ONLY FOR ELDERS EYES" ARRANGEMENT? Some or major of JW Judicial Committee also done and perhaps doing same procedural difficulties for some victims or participants in sexual issues (crimes or fornication). Cross-examination and ways how to collect information about some sexual details. Not only that, but also to show how many Institutions (including religious one, as WTJWorg also) are not BRIGHT EXAMPLE for Imitate. WTJWorg of Australia are not joined in National Redress Scheme. WT of Australia with US Headquarter obviously not thinking to make any Apology to Victims inside JW community, and is not willing to compensate any damage for those who suffered within the "spiritually safe congregations" and under guidance of some "responsible, wakeful" Overseers/Elders.

For many people who was born in poor countries, it could be said how their life is "predestined", or they are predetermined to stay poor and illiterate because parents can't afford to pay a school for their children. And for major of such population that is present and future. In some other cases we can talk about ones childhood. A circumstances in that period of life can be also very significant about life of such in older ages. With genetic you mentioned, too. Are we all some experiment of gods? :)) It could be. JW and some other when talking about book of Genesis and Bible at all, say how God put The Tree in Garden to see will human obey Him or not, will they obey because of love too. So, this sort of explanation smell much to me, on some sort of experiment. Such idea is continued, same stuff is repeated with Abraham or Job, Jesus too. All of them, and many more was put in position "to prove" something about God. Examples with Adam and Job, JW using as explanation for Crucial Questions of Life and Death. They say how God's Sovereignty and Honor depends on how would, will people answer to that challenge. Of, course, it is interesting how Adam, Job and Jesus answered about it,and make A Point, but still this seems it is not enough for God to make conclusion on this stuff and stop all injustice, misery and suffer for millions (people) or innocent children for centuries until today. Things are not, usually, black/white, but, perhaps JW explanation is not good enough, it is not valid, or interpretations on Bible text is terribly wrong, or bible description of past is poor, or all is in vain, or .... or i am predestined to talking stupidity :))))))

You received some view on this by John. He made good points. For a long time, WT publications shows JW religion as superior over all other religions. For what reason? For it is considered as the only right/true that came from God alone. Considered by whom? By Leaders and Members. Their Self Valuations on own interpretations about Bible and derived Organizational Doctrines from such Interpretations, and the way how they practice own religious beliefs, gave them this Right to Think so about themselves. Most of all, they are very confident in idea how God Himself with help of Jesus, GUIDING this earthly Leaders of this Multilevel Corporation/s. In their eyes God not running only Spiritual aspects of religion, but also All other parts of JW System under Leadership of WT and GB who are, supposedly, putted in this place by God Himself (or by Jesus, doesn't matter). In Light of this "knowledge" that exist inside GB and JW members, it can be very disappointing to see how WT Company have problems and "do not know how" handle things that is not Nothing New from religious point of Thinking. How so? Because all those things already were happen and described in the Bible. And WT (not only one in the World) preaching about Bible past records, prophecies, last days, big world problems, immorality and all evil things in 20, and now in this 21 century. So, how came to this reaction of WT and GB that they must get special commands, instructions, laws and Court decisions on how to handle Child Sexual Abuse problems inside own JW Organization? How is possible that such Faithful and Discrete (wise) Leaders not see what Bible told them to do as Prevention and as Solution of Issue? As result they are "called" by Secular Authorities as any other "human" organization to pay for mishandling and "ignorance" toward own members who suffered as victims. And to pay millions of $ from voluntary donations that was Dedicated and Given by JW people for God and Kingdom News and NOT for Court and Out of Court Settlements in to private pockets!!! Such kind of Self Importance, Humble Superiority, Elitism on religious basis, because they think about self as The Only People on Earth who doing God's Will. That is really Big Burden on their backs to carry on. But despite all objective problems that ones have to face in dealing with molestation issue, with or with out The Laws (worldly laws), JW Religion who's "Founder" is no one else but God, can not have excuse, especially not in a way You wish to present to us, how WT depends on Wisdom of this fallen World.

Things in Life are weird sometimes :))

For personal disputes, as your explanation about what means "small things" from Romans, you do not need elders and Worldly Judges. But if such persons can not be able to solve problem of "small things" between themselves, than perhaps "small things" are not so small at all. It is difficult to know, for us today, what was "small things" in Romans book.

Maybe it is so in "Western" countries. In some other countries people who doing this or similar stuff will be punished.

Product of such System and Idea is Absolutely Confusing Situation. In such case JW People have at least 3 Judges; Elders, 144000, Court of the World, JHVH, Jesus, People around you, ...You yourself. :)))) funny and tragic. This is The Problem!! Distinction, difference and similarity about sin and crime. Confusing. Basic idea of Mosaic Law have not such idea, Sin was same as Crime and vice versa. All ended in Punish. By One Court Body. Not existed 2 parallel system. Because Christians movement not forming Nation or Nations as Jew, they are subject to Worldly system of Justice. Worldly system have paragraphs on what is forbidden and what you have to do, otherwise you can be sentenced in some way. What is good or bad, sin or not sin is theological issue. Not belong to Secular Ideology. Again, Romans book clearly said how ALL Christian must obey Law of Government. Secular Court is appointed to deal with JW and their acts in all cases that are described in Law books and other Obligation for citizens. If some is not satisfied with that there are a ways how to change Legislative about particular case.

It seems how Problem is about Two Jurisdictional system that existing and working in parallel mode. One is in hand of JW elders and the other is in hand of Secular Government, who is appointed by God as it is quoted in Romans: "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." It seems, by this words, how God of Bible was not give any authority to anyone outside of Secular Governments arrangement. Once again, It seems how Bible contradicts itself, because in other place (Corinthians) verse say something different, as this: "Suppose one of you wants to bring a charge against another believer. Should you take it to ungodly people to be judged? Why not take it to the Lord’s people? Or don’t you know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? Since this is true, aren’t you able to judge small cases? Don’t you know that we will judge angels? Then we should be able to judge the things of this life even more! So suppose you disagree with one another in matters like this. Who do you ask to decide which of you is right? Do you ask people who live in a way the church disapproves of? Of course not! I say this to shame you. Is it possible that no one among you is wise enough to judge matters between believers? Instead, one believer goes to court against another. And this happens in front of unbelievers!" What they were, this small cases in 1 century? But perhaps something was wrong inside Corinthians congregation what caused for brothers to go to secular authority for justice: "When you take another believer to court, you have lost the battle already. Why not be treated wrongly? Why not be cheated? Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong. And you do it to your brothers and sisters." Judges in congregations, elders, also doing wrong and cheat. Is this report just type - anti type illustration? :))) or just normal fulfillment of some other Bible words as: "All this I have seen, applying my mind to every deed that is done under the sun; there is a time when one man lords it over another to his own detriment." Christ died for sinners of all kind. Idea of forgiveness. And other wonderful ideas that we have. Nice. But no one want this type of sinners in close to, near by the children. So, what would be decision?

par. 11. If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse is repentant and will remain in the congregation, restrictions are imposed on the individual’s congregation activities. The individual will be specifically admonished by the elders not to be alone in the company of children, not to cultivate friendships with children, or display any affection for children. In addition, elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual. Well, monitoring. Parents will monitoring children after they received elders message. Well, specifically admonished (is very serious speaking to somebody)will be instrument for elders to show, discipline molester who is repentant. Now i get. No police! Why? Because elders decide molester is repentant!

How and why to compare elders and police officers in this? Elders are supposed to care only about spiritual safety of flock, according to WT Lawyers. So by what authority and by what qualifications would elders be prepared to execute the order?

Kosonen, thanks for your efforts in searching for WT quotes and presentation of same materials! This reveals how GB operates. "Blind" people have one more chance to see The Real Truth.

Agree with you on first paragraph. About that congregation will be informed, and how will be informed, from par. 11 i am not so glad about policy. Trouble part in quote about it is this; elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual. They said here about informing, NOT all CONGREGATION in public announcement , NOT all CONGREGATIONS IN WHOLE COUNTRY, ....BUT ONLY PARENTS OF MINORS in particular congregation!! Is this enough? Policy makers decide how it is. WT Lawyers obviously gave advice about this way of dealing with issue. Maybe must be that way. Don't know. But looks problematic to me. I am aware how no one have "perfect" solution on this. But it seems to me, how WT experts not gave enough efforts for PROTECTING children and their families. About issue how elders will monitoring Individual persona aka molesters is funny idea.

As you has seen from short video, Richard Asch, WT REPRESENTATIVE has said clearly how elders duty is only to provide spiritual safety aka guidance, support, monitoring, keep congregation clear and similar. Because such WT position, JW congregations not need any secular lawyers in their midst, in their Spiritual Worldwide Paradise. Why don't need? Because all problems can be settled between brothers or in worst scenario, by ELDERS. WT need Lawyers primarily because of BUSINESS!!!!!

If John feels he have to go and report case to secular authorities, I will support his decision.

In March of this year (2018), the Watchtower Corporation settled cases with former members Jose Lopez and Osbaldo Padron, for alleged mishandling of sexual abuse committed against the men when they were children in the religion. During the course of these cases, the courts had ordered Watchtower to produce records of other alleged child molesters in the religion. Watchtower refused, and was then slapped with a $4000 per day sanction from the courts. As I brought out in this post, Watchtower lost their final appeal against these sanctions last November, and you can read the court’s rather scathing decision against them in that column. This settlement with Lopez and Padron closes down both this order for Watchtower to produce documents, and the $4000 per day sanction. The terms of the settlement reached with the men are confidential, so there is no information available about dollar amounts, etc. As you can see WT made settlement with this two men. This is reason why $ fine is stopped.

For secular police not, you are right. But for inside "Police", victims must have two witnesses. No change, no progress. This is not good, because Bible told us about examples where you do not need two witness for making "justified" allegation/accusation.

They are sort of "spiritual police", we can not denied this part of their role in congregation. in the past all appointments has have to be approved by WT USA. Recently they gave that in hand of Circuit Overseer (is title correct?) So, if Overseer made bad choice, no one can blame GB and Headquarter in US. Local "marshals" will have to take all blame for bad choice of elders.

I think how primary reason for "ban" in making them public is because the plaintiff and the defendant found third way. Settlement out Court. I do not know how Zalkin get documents. Zalkin must play in these way, because Court ordered him to do so. So, he obey Secular Law. Right or justice, question is now! Agree how revealing of this and other WT documents would put more light on events.

What i want to accent is this: If victim speaking with 3 men only on purely religious basis, then they not need some extra instructions from WT lawyers. We all know very well what is purpose of it, if lawyers are involved. Justification for need of some extra instructions can be, by my opinion, in fact how such instructions/advises can be provide only from some more mature elders who has been in such/similar situations before, or who are more intellectually, emotionally and spiritually empowered to provide some better help/safety for victims. And If we take what Asch said, how elders in JW congregations exists just for giving/providing only spiritual safety then again - what lawyers have with this conversations between 4,5 of them in KH?! Why we have to hear calls for 1 Amendment about this issue ??!! Because something is not right in all that.

In one hand your word is right Anna, but Shiwiii have better argument because Natural Law, or if you like Bible verses, have stronger argument, and that is; ..... do what is good in your eyes, by your conscious, what is good before people and before God, obey God more than men. Or if you want Ultimate and Final bible text about ALL things in LIFE ----- Love your neighbor as yourself. ...so what ever GB or WT Manual Book or lawyer or Court or police say .....do love .... and do find the way.

Defending the weaker from stronger in any form, spiritual or physical is obligation to all, inside or outside the JW community. Bible is full of examples where crude force is allowed to protect other person !!!!!!!!!!! ... to safe animals too. This short part in video is example how sometimes people on position and their lawyers want to avoid the truth and responsibility. ARC testimonies repeated this issue and showed how Australian elder have no interest to help children outside his congregation if pedophile is in their midst. Shameful. Anna, please do stop to protect those who are not protecting the weakest in society (JW society or outside)!

If conversation about this issue can make frustration of sort inside this circle of us who talking from distance to each other, imagine what heavy and hard and painful it is for those who experienced this things and must be in face to face situation !

Wrong Billy, ... according to WT study magazine such CLASS not existing ... even not with this few names (Srecko, Butler, JWinsider, Anna, TrueTom,) etc. you talking about not forming any class )))))

Never say never :))))))))) New light will come on GB ... and what will you do if it will be same or similar to this in our topic? hahhaha