Srecko Sostar

12 hours ago, Anna said:

These would have been personal disputes between two brothers (or sisters) that did not involve a sin or a crime.  It would be better if these brothers could handle this between themselves peacefully, rather than get "worldly" courts to judge who was right and who was wrong.

For personal disputes, as your explanation about what means "small things" from Romans, you do not need elders and Worldly Judges.

But if such persons can not be able to solve problem of "small things" between themselves, than perhaps "small things" are not so small at all. It is difficult to know, for us today, what was "small things" in Romans book.   

21 hours ago, Anna said:

For example, secular law does not prohibit Adultery or fornication. However God does.

Maybe it is so in "Western" countries. In some other countries people who doing this or similar stuff will be punished. 

11 hours ago, Anna said:

It is not a problem, it is exactly how it is. The jurisdictional system in a congregation deals with sin, the Jurisdictional system of the Government deals with crime and both can be applied to the same instance at the same time. In the case of child sexual molestation, it is both, a sin and a crime. So both jurisdictional systems are needed.

Product of such System and Idea is Absolutely Confusing Situation. In such case JW People have at least  3 Judges; Elders, 144000, Court of the World, JHVH, Jesus, People around you, ...You yourself. :)))) funny and tragic. 

This is The Problem!! 

Distinction, difference and similarity about sin and crime. Confusing. Basic idea of Mosaic Law have not such idea, Sin was same as Crime and vice versa. All ended in Punish. By One Court Body. Not existed 2 parallel system. 

Because Christians movement not forming Nation or Nations as Jew, they are subject to Worldly system of Justice. Worldly system have paragraphs on what is forbidden and what you have to do, otherwise you can be sentenced in some way. 

What is good or bad, sin or not sin is theological issue. Not belong to Secular Ideology. Again, Romans book clearly said how ALL Christian must obey Law of Government. Secular Court is appointed to deal with JW and their acts in all cases that are described in Law books and other Obligation for citizens. If some is not satisfied with that there are a ways how to change Legislative about particular case.    

20 hours ago, Anna said:

Again, remember: The elders’ handling of an accusation of child abuse is not a replacement for the authorities’ handling of the matter.—  This applies whether the elders disfellowship the molester or not.

It seems how Problem is about Two Jurisdictional system that existing and working in parallel mode. One is in hand of JW elders and the other is in hand of Secular Government, who is appointed by God as it is quoted in Romans: "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." 

It seems, by this words, how God of Bible was not give any authority to anyone  outside of Secular Governments arrangement. 

Once again, It seems how Bible contradicts itself, because in other place (Corinthians) verse say something different, as this: "Suppose one of you wants to bring a charge against another believer. Should you take it to ungodly people to be judged? Why not take it to the Lord’s people?  Or don’t you know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? Since this is true, aren’t you able to judge small cases?  Don’t you know that we will judge angels? Then we should be able to judge the things of this life even more!  So suppose you disagree with one another in matters like this. Who do you ask to decide which of you is right? Do you ask people who live in a way the church disapproves of? Of course not!  I say this to shame you. Is it possible that no one among you is wise enough to judge matters between believers?  Instead, one believer goes to court against another. And this happens in front of unbelievers!"

What they were, this small cases in 1 century? 

But perhaps something was wrong inside Corinthians congregation what caused for brothers to go to secular authority for justice:   "When you take another believer to court, you have lost the battle already. Why not be treated wrongly? Why not be cheated?  Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong. And you do it to your brothers and sisters."

Judges in congregations, elders, also doing wrong and cheat. Is this report just type - anti type illustration? :))) or just normal fulfillment of some other Bible words as: "All this I have seen, applying my mind to every deed that is done under the sun; there is a time when one man lords it over another to his own detriment."

20 hours ago, Anna said:

In fact I personally know a brother who is on a sex offender registry for something he did in the past. So the police were very much involved. He even went to prison for 6 months. He is still a member of a congregation. This is why Christ died for us, so that no matter how bad the sin/crime, we have a chance of forgiveness.

Christ died for sinners of all kind. Idea of forgiveness. And other wonderful ideas that we have. Nice. But no one want this type of sinners in close to, near by the children. So, what would be decision? 

6 minutes ago, Anna said:

I think we have a misunderstanding here, out of context. The elders are responsible for the flock in a spiritual way, but do you think if someone would try to physically assault someone inside the congregation they would just stand by and not do anything? They will help, and if necessary call the police. So in context, the elders are going to help someone from physical (or sexual) harm inside the Kingdom Hall, not just the elders, but any brother or sister will try and help. But if there is a problem outside the congregation building, for example domestic violence inside a home, then the elders will let the police handle that.

 par. 11. If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse is repentant and will remain in the congregation, restrictions are imposed on the individual’s congregation activities. The individual will be specifically admonished by the elders not to be alone in the company of children, not to cultivate friendships with children, or display any affection for children. In addition, elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual. 

Well, monitoring. Parents will monitoring children after they received elders message. 

Well, specifically admonished (is very serious speaking to somebody)will be instrument for elders to show, discipline molester who is repentant.

Now i get. No police! Why? Because elders decide molester is repentant! 

21 minutes ago, Anna said:

Not really. The police also monitor a sexual predator that has been released from prison. How do you think the police do it? Do you think they are with the person 24 hours a day 7 days a week? Of course not. There are various degrees of how a person can be monitored. Prison is the best way. The other ways depend on the reasonable ability of the ones doing the monitoring. For example the elders will be alert to anything going on in the congregation or congregation activities. But they will not sit inside his house, or go shopping with him. Neither will the police.

How and why to compare elders and police officers in this? Elders are supposed to care only about spiritual safety of flock, according to WT Lawyers. So by what authority and by what qualifications would elders be prepared to execute the order?

Kosonen, thanks for your efforts in searching for WT quotes and presentation of same materials!

This reveals how GB operates. "Blind" people have one more chance to see The Real Truth. 

1 hour ago, Anna said:

The problem with that reasoning is that what has to happen for time to tell? Another child is molested? Do we "sacrifice" another child so when that happens we then know for 'sure' this person is a danger and needs to be constrained in a more effective way? (i.e. prison and counseling etc.).

In cases of child sexual molestation, unlike other judicial cases (adultery, fornication etc.)  the congregation will be informed according to the new guidelines:

par. 11. If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse is repentant and will remain in the congregation, restrictions are imposed on the individual’s congregation activities. The individual will be specifically admonished by the elders not to be alone in the company of children, not to cultivate friendships with children, or display any affection for children. In addition, elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual.

https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/legal-resources/information/packet-jw-scripturally-based-position-child-protection/

 

Agree with you on first paragraph.

About that  congregation will be informed, and how will be informed, from par. 11 i am not so glad about policy.

Trouble part in quote about it is this;  elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual.

They said here about informing, NOT all CONGREGATION in public announcement , NOT all CONGREGATIONS IN WHOLE COUNTRY, ....BUT ONLY PARENTS OF MINORS in particular congregation!! 

Is this enough? Policy makers decide how it is. WT Lawyers obviously gave advice about this way of dealing with issue. Maybe must be that way. Don't know. But looks problematic to me. I am aware how no one have "perfect" solution on this. But it seems to me, how WT experts not gave enough efforts for PROTECTING children and their families.  

About issue how elders will monitoring Individual persona aka molesters is funny idea.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

If you have run a global organization then I will talk with you again.  Every country has its own laws and in most countries where there are laws against child sex abuse there is no follow up.   America and Australia are two countries who still follow up but this is becoming harder as Laws in the countries are being eroded.

South Africa has the best laws in the world but there is no longer law and order.   Murders, corruption, killings, robbery are not even followed up - only in high profile cases.  Children are abused daily in the schools by their own teachers to get marks to pass. They have the highest rape statistic in the world (of countries who report this).

It is easy to criticize a world wide organization who use lawyers.  But each country has different laws and the lawyers will apply the laws of the country.  If the rape can be proved and the level of violence established then a person will be put out of the congregation even if the laws of the country are weak. 

BUT this is one of the hardest crimes to prove.... because it is always hidden.

As you has seen from short video, Richard Asch, WT REPRESENTATIVE has said clearly how elders duty is only to provide spiritual safety aka  guidance, support, monitoring, keep congregation clear and similar.

Because such WT position, JW congregations not need any secular lawyers in their midst, in their Spiritual Worldwide Paradise. Why don't need? Because all problems can be settled between brothers or in worst scenario,  by ELDERS.

WT need Lawyers primarily because of BUSINESS!!!!!   

8 hours ago, Anna said:

please read carefully what @JOHN BUTLER  posted on November 18th 2018: and ask yourselves,: should John report this to the police and/or social services? Or is it just me, @Outta Here and @JW Insider and (maybe others like @Arauna @TrueTomHarley)who think John should report it? 

I have been given this information :-

If John feels  he have to go and report case to secular authorities, I will support his decision.

16 hours ago, Anna said:

Yes, WT always hands over any necessary confidential documentation pertaining to a case. WT will not hand over confidential documentation that has nothing to do with a specific case. The supreme court agreed with WT on that. (Any $4,000 fines per day were reversed and removed).

In March of this year (2018), the Watchtower Corporation settled cases with former members Jose Lopez and Osbaldo Padron, for alleged mishandling of sexual abuse committed against the men when they were children in the religion. During the course of these cases, the courts had ordered Watchtower to produce records of other alleged child molesters in the religion. Watchtower refused, and was then slapped with a $4000 per day sanction from the courts. As I brought out in this post, Watchtower lost their final appeal against these sanctions last November, and you can read the court’s rather scathing decision against them in that column.

This settlement with Lopez and Padron closes down both this order for Watchtower to produce documents, and the $4000 per day sanction. The terms of the settlement reached with the men are confidential, so there is no information available about dollar amounts, etc.

As you can see WT made settlement with this two men. This is reason why $ fine is stopped.

15 hours ago, Anna said:

This is irrelevant. You are making the mistake of mixing two separate things together. You do not need two witnesses to make a report to the police. This is only for congregational action.

For secular police not, you are right. But for inside "Police", victims must have two witnesses. No change, no progress. This is not good, because Bible told us about examples where you do not need two witness for making "justified" allegation/accusation.

16 hours ago, Anna said:

Elders are not the police. So now you want them to act like the police?

They are sort of "spiritual police", we can not denied this part of their role in congregation. in the past all appointments has have to be approved by WT USA. Recently they gave that in hand of Circuit Overseer (is title correct?) So, if Overseer made bad choice, no one can blame GB and Headquarter in US. Local "marshals" will have to take all blame for bad choice of elders. 

13 hours ago, Anna said:

One more thing on that Srecko; the lawyer Zalkin has hundreds of files (in his words) from WT in his office, that he is not allowed to show to anyone by law*. So WT have given him many more documents, more than he needed.

* why doesn't he make them public if it would help victims? Because he would immediately lose his license as a lawyer for breaching the confidentiality law. (or as you say secret). So he doesn't want to risk that of course.

I think how primary  reason for "ban" in making them public is because the plaintiff and the defendant found third way. Settlement out Court. I do not know how Zalkin get documents.

Zalkin must play in these way, because Court ordered him to do so. So, he obey Secular Law. Right or justice, question is now! Agree how revealing of this and other WT documents would put more light on events. 

13 hours ago, Anna said:

That's why I said:

But my response and reason for giving this example was because you wanted to know: " if it is so as this declaration No 10 say, than WHY elders must contact Legal Department first on how this purely religious proceeding must continue. ??

What i want to accent is this: If victim speaking with 3 men only on purely religious basis, then they not need some extra instructions from WT lawyers. We all know very well what is purpose of it, if lawyers are involved.

Justification for need of some extra instructions can be, by my opinion, in fact how such instructions/advises can be provide only from some more mature elders who has been in such/similar situations before, or who are more intellectually, emotionally and spiritually empowered to provide some better help/safety for victims.

And If we take what Asch said, how elders in JW congregations exists just for giving/providing only spiritual safety then again - what lawyers have with this conversations between 4,5 of them in KH?! Why we have to hear calls for 1 Amendment about this issue ??!!  

Because something is not right in all that.

5 minutes ago, Anna said:

You are funny. This is what we have been talking about. When the law of the land "the authorities" obligate a person who has heard of an allegation of CSA to report to the authorities, then JWs will report to the authorities.

In one hand your word is right Anna, but Shiwiii have better argument because Natural Law, or if you like Bible verses, have stronger argument, and that is; ..... do what is good in your eyes, by your conscious, what is good before people and before God, obey God more than men. Or if you want Ultimate and Final bible text about ALL things in LIFE ----- Love your neighbor as yourself.  

...so what ever GB or WT Manual Book or lawyer or Court or police say .....do love  .... and do find the way. 

28 minutes ago, Anna said:

“Within the congregation, ours is a spiritual protection...we are talking about physical protection, that is up to the secular authorities to provide”

Well yes! Do you hear anyone arguing that point? No, because it is true! You yourself have said the Elders are not the police. So now you want them to act like the police?

Defending the weaker from stronger in any form, spiritual or physical is obligation to all, inside or outside the JW  community. 

Bible is full of examples where crude force is allowed to protect other person !!!!!!!!!!!  ... to safe animals too. 

This short part in video is example how sometimes people on position and their lawyers want to avoid the truth and responsibility. ARC testimonies repeated this issue and showed how Australian elder have no interest to help children outside his congregation if pedophile is in their midst. Shameful. Anna, please do stop to protect those who are not protecting the weakest in society (JW society or outside)!  

29 minutes ago, Anna said:

With this information, please use your intelligence to figure out the various scenarios possible in the case of child sexual molestation.

If conversation about this issue can make frustration of sort inside this circle of us who talking from distance to each other, imagine what heavy and hard and painful it is for those who experienced this things and must be in face to face situation ! 

11 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

hose that manipulate scripture to make their own wrongful perception of scripture is the wicked slave.

Wrong Billy, ... according to WT study magazine such CLASS not existing ... even not with this few names (Srecko, Butler, JWinsider, Anna, TrueTom,) etc. you talking about not forming any  class )))))

12 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

claims don’t meet Bible standards and never will.

Never say never :))))))))) New light will come on GB ... and what will you do if it will be same or similar to this in our topic? hahhaha 

54 minutes ago, Anna said:

This is why Srecko: Let's think of a hypothetical situation ....

What would it be if it were happened.....

We do not need this imagination because we have real people with real events dear Anna.

42 minutes ago, Anna said:

How do you mean no progress was made in benefit for the victims?

Did WT made change about need for TWO witnesses?

Did WT allow that sisters/women be present in investigation process as support for male and especially female minors victims and other victims  no matter of ages? 

Did WT allow that sister/women be involved in Judicial process that involve sex crimes and domestic violence inside and outside family environment when female victims are involved? 

Did WT open secret files and fully cooperate with police and Courts?

.....etc.

31 minutes ago, Anna said:

Please, if you are going to say this, back it up with quotes from the deposition.

21 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The TRUE Anointed would know how to use the scriptures properly. 

I like this thought very much. First time that i saw somebody put it in writing or say it aloud in this simple but distinctive sentence. Bravo John!

55 minutes ago, Anna said:

You can be certain that if I had got the information you did, I would have gone to the police and elders the next day! So who is more concerned?

If i can recall this post of John about this information (correct me if it is wrong) John has heard that from other person. So now, we here are in some similar, strange position, because we heard, about crime that has happened, from John. 

I think how some scientific discipline, like sociology and psychology, could explain what happens inside people in such situations we talking about. Why do we react or not react? How do we react? Why we do not want to interfere in someone else's problems? Why it easier to be passive and to go on other side? .... etc.