Srecko Sostar

15 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

At the same time I remain in total neutrality

Dear SM no one is neutral  , even if you consider self as neutral, at specific moment of situation you will put yourself on some side, actively or passively.

15 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

I do not see why there is a need to ask of such again

My need is in that because i see you read a lot and think a lot. So, as you are man of a book and deep thinking it is quite normal how you might have conclusions and can describe WTJWorg in light of your understanding of what Bible say on religious institutions around the World. Question is not complicated and you are able, because of your great knowledge on issue, to give respond on such ask.

16 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

you want people to answer you but you never answer them.?

I can not answer on all your question because i might do not know answer, (or my answer can be wrong, but what? Next day my answer can be right, heheehe) in this moment. But, you see irony? You criticize me how i not answer your question and in same time  you refuse to explain your stand about WT, by saying,  "i am neutral... there is no need to ask me again". :)) Do you support your view of Bible truth or you are supporter of WT? What else, except neutrality keep you from commenting this? Judgmental day? If so, then will be better for all of us to spend life in silence.  

Another think what i would like to say you is this. My perception after our conversations is that you want from other people to prove all what they have said, have to say (their thoughts, beliefs, conclusions, understanding, emotions if you want, etc), with Bible verses. All must be confirmed with some Bible verses, according to your expectation (at least in my case with "devil and money", hehheehe) . That looks to me how you believe, my perception of you, how things that are not written, mentioned in Bible and Bible only, in fact not existing in humans World, on Earth. Things are; material or spiritual or mental or intellectual, someones claims, perceptions, beliefs, teachings, thoughts on something. Famous example of that is in our conversation on my belief how "money is devil product". And because you can not find Bible verse where is written, "Money is from satan", then you strongly claim how this conclusion of mine is wrong, false teaching, not reality, not supported with this or that, by his or him.

Do you want be "fanatical" and claim how all things (material or immaterial) if Bible not mentioned them, not existing and they are not true?  Because with your insisting on Bible verse for proving this or that (what other people say), you have in fact, such irrational need.

Greetings.

  

8 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

War, sickness and Death came about due to our inheritance of Sin...

At the start of it all, the cause for man to dwell in imperfection was Satan the Devil,...

Satan can influence man to do things that is not of any good, ...

.... and now back to "money issue" with your upper thoughts as light that bring clarification to me.  

Money is product due to our inheritance of Sin...

Money is product because man dwell in imperfection   and the cause for man to dwell in imperfection was Satan the Devil

Money is product because Satan can influence man to do things that is not of any good

 

Well who standing in the background, behind of human who do things that is not of any good?

Well who stand in the background, behind  of money?

:))

9 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

and there we see a widow making an offering to which Jesus gave her praise because she has donated as seen in verse 42,

Is there some Bible report about how Jesus and apostles doing the same, giving donation money in temple box? 

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

You clearly didn't get what I have stated, but it is no surprise you are shifting things around, as seen in recent responses.

I said the following: No, but I am very well aware of their Christology and the only reason I speak of them is because there is many misconceptions and things said of them that can and will be addressed

Christology is the field of study within Christian theology itself, which is primarily concerned with the ontology and person of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels Accounts and the Epistles shown in the Greek the New Testament. The ontology and person of Jesus in conjunction with his relationship with that of God the Father. Christology is concerned with the details of Jesus' ministry, his acts and teachings, to arrive at a clearer understanding of who he is in his person, and his role in salvation. The views of Paul the Apostle provided a major component of the Christology of the Apostolic Age. To some extend at times the levels reach to based Apostolic Christology. This also connects with Exegesis and Hermeneutics in regards to Theological studies of both scripture and history of said text.

Such also falls in line with the study of religion, their theology, practices, beliefs in regards to the teachings and or the Church, of which the foundation itself is the Christ.

Regarding Jehovah's Witnesses, I studied Restorationism and Non-Trinitarianism among most, excluding my studies on Judaism, Islam, and a list of others that are not part of the Abrahamic faiths and for various reasons I have done this for nearly 2 decades despite me myself being a Non-Trinitarian Christain, for in how I was brought up is to understand where people are coming from and their conclusions. The Jehovah's Witnesses at their core are Restorationism, in a sense, primitive Christianity that has nothing to do  with mainstream Christianity that is not applying what the early church has done, but of what we see as the end result of the Council itself. This is a known fact even before they became Bible Students because over the centuries there have been Restorationist before the Movement was even executed. Such is traced by tot the early church and the Apostolic Age.

Therefore, those who adhere to the early church and its teachings and practices, I tend to have a focused study of them, and knowing what I know, people will slander and or make lies of such in order to push an accrused agenda, therefore the reason I o what I do.

If someone says a Sunni or a Shia teaches that killing is necessary for salvation, I will refute. If someone says Jesus is God, I will refute. If someone says a JW has guns kept in a church and has poisons ready to use on other JWs, I will refute. If someone says a faith got money from a sporting event, I will refute. If someone says that our Church Father's believed in something else other than the truth itself, I will refute. If someone tries to justify false and or forged bible verses that were not in the original manuscripts and or not in respects to the Strong's, I will refute. In the end it is not about agreeing and or disagreeing, it is about correcting the wrongs and speaking up in the face of misconceptions.

And at times my explanations could be long, and the person you have to thank for that can be seen in the Bible Discussion part of the forum since the both of use were speaking of Church Fathers and about the word Worship.

Out of among many things, the only plague I am in a total crusade against is mainstream Christendom and New Agers, both of which who have dismantled what the first church has established. Those who make a defense on what is seen as accursed, thus a prompt application of Galatians 1:1-11 is due. I am but one person, but since the craziness that took place mid 2015 and onward, people, like me, will refute the accursed and correct the lies and or wrongs people say of others the biggest enemy of them all it Babylon itself, which is clearly in the works since the early 2000s, not counting the whole 1920s Bailey thing for the gathering of religious leaders have not begun until the early 2000s. That being said, I am able to see clearly who is who, who is of Babylon, ho is not, who can easily be mislead by her, who is on the fence and or confused, and most of the time, the unaware ones are the one easily taken, thus my stance is clear and it is a diamond based defense because I am able to prepare myself for what is to come, this also goes in conjunction with my 100% neutrality to any man who attempts to and or is close to doing the same as the early church.

And it is clear to me you yourself is not aware of the present danger of things, mainly to how you based on your logic into the text rather than what the bible professes.

thanks for response. May i reformulate my question: What would you correct in JW theology?

23 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

such ones are lovers of money and thus making money master over them

Would someone love the money if money would not exist? Would someone be in position to serve  to money, would money be master over him,  if money would not exist? 

Delete money from human life and you will be solve two problems that Bible said is burden in people's life. No money= less devil's influence on man :))))) 

24 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

I can say right now that any translation can be used, but regardless, such information is not found, to change the matter into saying Satan is the god of this world, has nothing to do with the claim of your saying that money is a product of Satan.

Sorry but in same logic you provide your claims as is quoted:

"Now, the things that are products of Satan are the exploitation of man’s imperfection. There is war, sickness, death, and all kinds of violence. Satan’s influence is also responsible for the twisting of biblical teachings and or doctrines that is not of early church origin, the teaching that ...."

HOW is possible that named things as war, sickness, death.... you put under main title "the things that are products of Satan are the exploitation of man’s imperfection. There is ......"

1. Is there war, sickness, death.... because of man's imperfection?

2. Is war, sickness, death.... products of Satan''s exploitation of man's imperfection?

3. Is war, sickness, death .... existing because of satan's influence?

Who making wars? People or ....1.man's imperfection; 2.Satan''s exploitation of man's imperfection; 3.satan's influence ??  would it be a war if people were perfect ??? Does perfection of people is guarantee how wars would never be possible? 

9 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Other than that, I still await on your response to your claim: "Because money is a product of Satan has the Bible indicates." ~ Srecko Sostar (July 18, 2018)

Your thoughts answer on your expectation: 

-"..the things that are products of Satan are the exploitation of man’s imperfection."

-"That being said, it is no question that Satan’s influence on people and their actions is ever so evident,.."

If God inspired human for good deeds, i am sure you believe in this premise, then satan "influence", your word "influence", or bad inspiration on people is quite logical reasoning how he, devil is very possible source of why human invented and using money. But as i said, this is my understanding  on my way of reading Bible. And because i made my conclusion on this i have no obligation to you or anyone else to "justifies" why i came to this conclusion. That is my reasoning, true or false. Will i change that or not is matter of "inspiration" that will or will not came from "higher source". :))) 

21 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

No, but I am very well aware of their Christology an the only reason I speak of them is because there is many misconceptions and things said of them that can and will be addressed

Please, what in JW theology exist that you do not support?

17 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

FACT: Jesus taught that a legitimate use of money is to support the Lord's work (The Great Commission) through the religious institutions the Lord established, the early Church/Christians (Matthew 23:23; Mark 12:41-44; Luke 8:1-3).

I do not see here that Jesus support economic and money system of Jew, Greek or Roman people. He was not willing to support that. This verse "proving" my view and understanding on Jesus act: -------------- “But so that we may not offend them, go to the sea, cast a hook, and take the first fish you catch. When you open its mouth, you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for you” and Me.

Jesus was not voluntary or by obligation participate in paying temple tax. His reason for pay tax money was in some sort of strange reason, "to not offend them". Does he payed tax more then this one time mentioned in this verse? Do not know. But this verse telling something different in connection to your statement:  "Jesus taught that a legitimate use of money is to support the Lord's work (The Great Commission) through the religious institutions the Lord established,the early Church/Christians."

In this verse  he did contrary, he support Jew system and not "Lord's work". And as such, religious institutions aka Jew religion (or some other religious institution today), have to be, was been rejected by him and his followers, at the end of a day (or to the end of century in Romans's  siege and destruction of Jerusalem).

1.What is legitimate use of money? (by capitalist view, by socialist view, by particular religious institution view......?)

2.And would you, as beneficiary, accept money, as donation or in other forms, without knowledge and proves how donor/donors made their multiplication of money in legitimate using, way?     (Do you have interest to know is such money made in way that no one was damaged?)

How many people working for one dollar per day or less, for few cents, in one part of a world??? And in different part of the world  other people buy cheap products because of such system? And what is LEGITIMATE in that? Only laws that was product of injustice.

AND ALL THIS WAS IN DOMAIN OF WHO OWNS THE MONEY :)))))))

I do not care, at the end, is that devil's money or people's money. It is injustice! This is all about injustice, greedy, lies, manipulation ... 

16 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

So who is telling the truth, me who says the Bible makes no indication that money is the product of Satan or you, who says the Bible indicates money is a product of Satan?

we both! :)))

please help me to see, by your thoughts, is there something in this World that IS devil product? proved by Bible, because this is point you like to highlight - Bible verses. Thanks.

8 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Friend, I made this response to your response. You yourself stated the following: Because money is Satan product as Bible indicates.

conclusion was derived from verse that claim how "satan is god of this world". If so, money is his invention. Adam and Eve have not money in their world to which JHVH was god. By that JHVH not produce money.... but fruits from a tree. :)) 

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

Again, friend, you really have to wise up on this type of information, let alone the scriptures in the Bible itself, the claim to say that money is a product of Satan irks me, at the same time to speak of such, yet founded to be using money yourself, is kind of hypocritical.

sadly, WE ALL are hypocritical... in this way or another, more or less. :))

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

Can you prove it instead of making claim? Literally we are part of the world, but when it comes to the world, but Spiritually, should you accept, we are not part of the world at all.

So you are JW who spiritually is not part of this world? That is nice.

I will provide links from Australian government site about Australian Branch. Only to illustrate, the same is around the world. Watchtower have Identity number and in this case it is Charity ABN 42002861225 (ABN is Australian Business Number), and they have additional business name - "Watchtower Travel".  Travel Company? :)))))

 https://www.acnc.gov.au/RN52B75Q?ID=91956EB4-F967-4486-8D20-89B6E9A28BCC&noleft=1

http://www.abr.business.gov.au/ABN/View/42002861225

https://connectonline.asic.gov.au/RegistrySearch/faces/landing/bySearchId.jspx?searchId=69158541&searchIdType=BUSN&_adf.ctrl-state=ptvq0dfmh_4

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

I don't believe the Bible says anywhere that money is a product of Satan and or make an indication to such

Does Bible anywhere said how this or that religion in our century  is product of satan ..... or of god

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

Really? so how are you being fed to remain alive

:)))) look at the birds, my Father feed them all ......

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

Can you prove the Watchtower is an owner of stocks and bonds

Can you prove they are not?

On 7/17/2018 at 5:55 AM, Space Merchant said:

Moreover, it should be known to you, even before this, that any person, group, institution and or organization can donate to any person, group, institution and or organization of their choice, which seems to be the case with Ms. Riley.

...accepting donations does not disqualify such ones from their stance of not being part of this world,

Of course, any one can donate. 

Bible words put money and material things (wealth)  in area of "unrighteous riches".

So all that i have and all that you have, are "unrighteous" by  this Bible words. So, all money that is in WT, all money that coming to WT from all kinds of sources, from members or from stocks and shares, in what ever connections might be with WT, is "bad money". Because money is satan product as Bible indicates.

So, WT Company Inc. with all sister Companies around the world, and with all other Entities that Suport WT too, with more or less responsibility, with more or less awareness, with more or less intention are involved in business, transactions, that suport this unrighteous, bad materialistic system. No matter that WT publishing and printing Bible and magazines with Gods words, because the way, mean how money circling and coming from this hands to that hands reveals that deep issue how all money and wealth  coming, in fact, from global exploration of people, JW or non JW .

We are the part of a World. WT is part of the World no matter of their claim how they not. 

Do you have ID cart? Who gave it to you?

 Do WT have ID number as private Company? Who gave it to them?

If yes.... then all who have it are part of the System. And if you are part of System you can not be without Guilt (in this matter- Economic, Money issue guilt on global scale).  

5 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

This video

thanks for info. For that reason i was deleted my post.

17 hours ago, Anna said:

It looks like you are getting hung up on specifics rather than understanding the spirit or principle behind the way a Christian should live.

Dear Anna do not "fight" me with "specifics", because elder's "Shepherd" book and other memos they received from GB as instructions for Christian Life and Ministry of/for members, are full of all sort of details and specifics. 

"Spirit or principles behind" ... this is also for long disguising with large possibility to end up, "hung up" in "specifics". :)))  because life of human is loaded, weighted with so much little things, details, particularities, specifics, orders, prohibitions, instructions, tips, advises, recommendations ...You see we, human, even have too much words for so many specifics to be able to "understanding the spirit and principle behind something" ::::))))  

Definition by English dictionary:

If you say that someone is hung up about a particular person or thing, you are criticizing them for thinking or worrying too much about that person or thing.

Don't worry about me Anna :)   

A little supplement:

The terminology used by the WT corporation, which should to guide the reader, member in direction of a "correct" choice, uses terms such as; spiritually mature Christian, Christian life, non-Christian customs (meaning there must be also Christian customs, and this means in other words "JW customs"), worldly customs, pagan customs, and the like.

General rule by WT say; all that have pagan origin must be avoid and rejected, to not imitate or implement in JW life.

General rule by JW people say; all that not brake your conscience or Bible understanding you can do, but will be good if you ask elder for opinion and advice if you are not sure what WT literature said about. (of course some JW person  have understanding of same text in publication that is different or even opposite of some other JW member)

General rule by WT say; "worldly" way of living is not what is for Christian aka JW. So, JW must avoid all what is "worldly". To lie, kill, steal, looking woman, dirty words, drinking, be lazy, be fan or member of sport club, cheer for the soccer team, go to coffee with "worldly" aka non-JW colleague except if it is for Bible conversation  and other questionable acts.   

:))

49 minutes ago, SuzA said:

So far, you have not demonstrated in what way post-funeral hospitality amongst Witnesses is in any shape or form bound up in superstitious or pagan practices, or that it is a "worldly" practice.

"Worldly" weddings are also "connected to folkloric, custom, beliefs, superstition . . .   And here we have great variety of customs around the world."  We don't eschew weddings simply because some of the customs worldly people include originate in superstitious practices.  We omit what would be offensive to Jehovah.  Likewise with funerals and association thereafter.

"When my grandmother died, they decided to hold a huge lunch at a restaurant. Same thing happened when a cousin died. I heard this is common for JW. Why?", by Nikole.

Merely my comment was on; "I heard this is common to JW". Inviting people to take food and drink in such circumstances is not JW invention. That is all what is matter here, as from my side of notice. In our country, preparing food and drink inside late person home with less or more quantity, or invite people to restaurant is common practice. Also some JW people doing the same in lesser or bigger scale.

I was many times on JW funeral, but only twice was (as recall)  in restaurant because people was invited me. One reason is they traveled from far away, from another town for funeral. So they need some refreshment before back home, or they were friends, or are little closer to family, not only bro/sis to that family. 

Well, hope that you will understand how there is no need, from me, to demonstrate what JW practice (that various from cong to cong and from country to country) on funeral customs are similar, same or not, to other, non JW people sorts and reasons for customs.

As for your mentioned of wedding. Symbols of ring, wedding (white) dress, cake (just to mention few) , which is normal for JW weddings have deep connection to paganism (what ever paganism means for modern day people)  or/and customs that are "worldly", not necessary bad.

1 hour ago, SuzA said:

We omit what would be offensive to Jehovah.

Ohhh, "offensive to JHVH". And that covers all answers, :)) and gives justification for doing or not doing something. Great!

In old time God give Law by which Israel man can be Master of slaves, to be in Bigamy relationship, have to Kill all enemy of True Worship, to Stone their non-obedient children, etc. And God blessed that Law, regulating peoples behavior, customs, practice and folkloric of Jew and non Jew who accept their religion, of God's Chosen People, under this Perfect and Everlasting Commands.

In modern time God said; You must Turn the other chick, Love your enemy, Have one Woman, No Slaves, ..... but you have to Shunning your children who are Witness no more( no phone calls), and not to say "simple Hello" to some ex JW on the street, etc.

 Standards of what is/are "offensive" and what is/are "pleasant"  to JHVH looks very strange. :))

Just now, SuzA said:

The subject was never brought up again.

Like your firm stand in front them. But keep in mind how they not insist on this issue because, from other side, teaching says how children must take care on old parents, that means in all kind of help, physically,  emotionally, and with money. As for spiritual help that would be primary task only for elders, especially because your daughter is ex JW, and by that, according to WT instruction  she must not, or better to say, You must not speak about Bible with her, nothing that is about so called spiritual matters. Sad, sad.   

1 hour ago, SuzA said:

Since when has hospitality been a "worldly" custom? 

We have two separate things Suza:

1. Hospitality in general sense and understanding

This one sort of behavior of humans is human like, and all groups of all kind show it, it is not characteristic of  specific group, atheist, religious or "worldly shape" people    

2. Hospitality to people who came to funeral

This is connected not only with mere hospitality people want to show to others, but is connected to folkloric, custom, beliefs, superstition that is in relation with death and dead. And here we have great variety of details in customs around the world. 

3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

My friend, that is because in ancient times that is how they spoke and how they understood things,

Of course. But if Bible is word of God, not of man and  "how they (man) spoke and how they (man) understood things", but a God's word, the letter to all humankind in all periods of time - Why He not inspired writers to writing words and sentences in a simple way to be understandable for all.

Or, if God's  intention is not for all to understand, but few who then would be religious leaders and interpreting "the truths" to the flock?   

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

Inspired text

--- in short and concise words, please explain me what do you mean by expression "inspired Bible text"?