Srecko Sostar

5 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Final note: Paul confronted Cesar,

Paul was on the accused's bench. He sought for Caesars protection. He did not come to Rome to represent Christians as a representative of the Church, but as a defendant. 

Another question about Paul. Would he also seek, appeal for Caesar's Law if Jews and/or Romans officials in Palestine looked for written or oral reports about criminal acts that happened inside Jews people Christians congregations of those times?

@Space Merchant  thanks for comment. With what you said and gave several quotes maybe is suitable also this verse,

Isaiah 30, for example:

1"Woe to the rebellious children," declares the LORD, "Who execute a plan, but not Mine, And make an alliance, but not of My Spirit, In order to add sin to sin; 

2Who proceed down to Egypt Without consulting Me, To take refuge in the safety of Pharaoh And to seek shelter in the shadow of Egypt!

Perhaps we can derive at least two interpretations on this,  opposite of course :))

1) It is religious or political adultery to make connections and deals with "Gods enemies" (you are aware how WT explains three main evil force under satan power, this are; all false religions, politics and trade system. Well what have "clean JHVH nation" with OSCE or other similar worlds instruments for fixing worlds problems, when JW wait JHVH to fix all problems on HIS terms, not on this "old system" terms?)   

2) It is JHVH plan for WT to have mutual plans with this world how  to improve and secure religious freedoms?

3) Is this/such involving and WT participate just test in which JHVH can see what is in the heart of WT JWorg leaders aka GB?   

I just found this interesting comment on YT

Regarding the court fines: I just read something interesting today from the book "Defending and Legally Establishing the Good News" (WTBTS 1950). It says on page 81, last paragraph under "FINES": If, after appealing a criminal court fine related to your JW membership or JW's doctrine, "then instead of paying the fine, discharge it by going to jail, if allowed to do so by law". "If it is his (Jehovah's) will that you go to prison and there give further testimony after failing on appeal, that should be done joyfully. Trust in Jehovah for protection". So which JW will be going to prison over the $4000 daily fine from the court? I think these fines are against the WTBTS, not the elders or congregation. In Los Angeles County, jail time is typically used to pay off court fines at the rate of $38 per day. (each day of $4000 fine would equal 105 days in jail) Maybe they can send the entire Governing Body to prison? Wouldn't that be fun to see. I'm sure they can delay the fines for a few more years, but eventually they will have to pay. If WT pays this fine instead of choosing jail, they would be in violation of their own command.?

source; 

 

On other hand, in last period (decade or more) of time WT JWorg with its representatives and lawyers going together with other churches in defending some religious rights and Court cases when want defend JW religious rights. They siting together in OSCE conferences too. 

 By that they are also part of Worlds religious system, don't they?   :))

21 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Rut-roh..Jehovah's witnesses have the upmost hatred for the catholic church and catholics.

If i recall correctly, last big campaign against Catholic and Christendom was been in WT magazines in the decade 1980-1990.

13 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

... same with Theology.

WT represented themselves (in Proclaimers book pages 132) as Progressive, Not Creed-Bound (organization).  

But also on page 133 they quoted Russell and the idea of Progressive Truth. 

Furthermore, different to this quotations, on pages 708,709 they said how Understanding is Progressive.

Obviously we have few and more elements that makes confusion. 

What is connected with term progressive?                                                                                                           1)organization, 2) truth, 3) understanding and 4) light (as they made explanation on Proverbs;"light getting brighter", light=JHVH or The Truth, truth (aka understanding) getting brighter aka truth are progressive as Proclaimers book highlight that Russell said.

Because we living on Earth, from our perspective Light (Sun) moves from E-W and getting brighter and give us more light and warm. Not Earth rotation :))))) And because the same reason, many, almost all, of bible reports are from Earthly perspective not from Heavenly perspective. Events and their descriptions and even conclusions are made by earthly observer. Some of especially inspired messages in dreams or vision or in other mental and emotional states of some persons is extraordinary event.  

WT claim how they are not inspired by JHVH but He leds or guide them to such progressive understanding because they (GB) cultivate fruitage of spirit. Are they only one who cultivate fruitage of spirit? 

11 hours ago, DeeDee said:

Galatians 6:2 – Go on carrying the burdens of one another,

and in this way you will FULFILL the law of the Christ.

With this verse you made important point. Knowledge about something is important, Teaching/doctrine about something is important. Organizational policy and rules are also important. BUT means nothing and can be false and err and can be replaced with another way of thinking and conclusions. You have, as you mentioned previously, Mosaic Law aka perfect, everlasting commands by god JHVH. But what happened with this Perfect and Eternal, The Best Law of the World?? Deleted! By Jesus and by JHVH.

If you/we apply that same "principles" on WT history of interpretations, even if we make agreement/consensus how all teachings and practice from this "only one true religion" are"was in line with TRUTH and RIGHTEOUS----- such conclusion and belief and persuasion give no guarantee that this/such set of religious "truths" will stay truth forever.

If it is so with this, why WT and GB "force" people to believe how only this what they teach can bring them life? And those who disagree naming as apostate or unbelievers or sinners or condemned for destruction in Armageddon?        

Galatians gives answer. Not WT set of beliefs. :))

2 minutes ago, DeeDee said:

Does that explain it?

By your opinion (if you take in consideration all you know about all WT explanations until now, past "wrong" teachings and new teachings that are temporary looks as "true" teachings, but you never know what tomorrow will bring and nullified or changed what you embraced today as "new light") in what period of 0-24 hours WT are in present time? 

But also in what hour of day has been first Christians? Because as i had read reports from Bible, i can draw same parallel between them and WT from Russell to nowadays JW. They had wrong interpretations, expectations, rules for living, divisions, injustice, moral fails and similar. And they passed as Path, Movement. Or they has changed and became organized religion under name Catholic church. And then again you have dissidents and movements and protestants movements and you have 19 century and all those new "religions" that run from Catholic and Protestant. :))   

57 minutes ago, DeeDee said:

Proverbs 4:18 “But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light

That grows brighter and brighter until full daylight.”

 

In this Scripture, the path is like the morning lightÂ…UNTIL FULL daylight.
It is about the way the light gradually WILL definitely continue to grow brighter.

 

The Scripture is not about nighttime and darkness. It is only using the GROWING of the light as an illustration of HOW the “Path” GROWS brighter, meaning you can see better (have better understanding), because it is brighter now than it was before (when the understanding was not as clear as it is now).

Thanks Dee for respond.

As you very well pointed out - this is (just) ILLUSTRATION. This verse, as i think now, have purpose to illustrate, to give perspective, picture about way of living of one group of people (righteous people, or more precisely said - about people who tend, strive to be accepted by God and who will be after they completed their way of living, under the Law, because this is about Jews old nation, will be, would be declared as righteous by this same God JHVH) 

For Jesus followers, to be declared righteous by God it is something else in "game". People need to have faith, not deeds of "righteous" by Law, law, rules, organizational arrangements, accepting particular doctrines and similar.

What is growing in Proverbs? Path or light? Do we need to use literal words  of this and that and then transport possible meaning, make transition of bible idioms from one meaning to another, for purpose to explain why our personal or organizational errors, wrong interpretations, beliefs, teachings in the past time are EXCUSES AND JUSTIFICATION  for lies, wrong interpretation and ideas of CLERGY people who run WT and who accused others who not accept or disagree or have no faith in TEMPORARY, current "truth" that in fact is NOT TRUTH - but only opinion.    

If people have "dark light" of human interpretations and opinions that are FORCED (by GB) as only way, then your path is not "path of righteous" but path of "blind faith believer", fanatic, zealot - who follow earthly humans not god. 

Yes, Scripture is about dark and light. Daylight and darkness. And Bible warns about this.   

 

i found some parallels, similarity.

JHVH = Father, Husband, Savior, King and all everything for Natural Jews, his children, wife ...

Jesus = Father, Husband, Savior, King and all everything for Natural Jews and other humans, his brothers, followers, bride, wife, childrens ...

39 minutes ago, DeeDee said:

If Jesus is the FATHER, then WHO is Jesus praying to???

Himself???

I think that he just answered on apostles question, request ... to teach them to pray. 

You are familiar with one very wide habits. Person/people, many times, talking to yourself/himself. And it is normal. Or sometimes we calling ourselves WE.  "What we shall doing today?" but we are in fact single, alone. :)))

As i said before, i do not know real personality of God or Heavens persons, but everything is possible, because God is almighty. 

I do not see any reason why sister can not be in role or MS or elders, if she like/want that? NOT only in situation when there is no BAPTIZED male/brother/men. :))))

Are not "appointed"/for example/ sister enough qualified? She will be Priest and King/Queen in Heaven??? The same is with "appointed" brother. He will be.... something, too., in Heaven. Or, He will be something better than She???!!! 

Appointed or Regular all are equal !!!

Who was Deborah? First of all, SHE was Woman. But for all Sons of Israel SHE was Judge and Prophet. And all must obeyed HER Decisions. This example is for those who believe in Bible reports and in God who not loves males more than females. 

I do not see how these modest and humble characters of sisters can be so satisfied with "new duties", and can not see that/how macho/ patriarhal males inside JWorg only filling "holes" because that suits them in this particular moment. After when this need will no more be unnecessary, Corporation will put you where you "belong".... to clean toilets. :(((((  

Very sad. People should doing things in what they are good and have talents and wishes, calls if you want. And not because their gender determinate what he/she are expected, "predestined" by society  or ordered to do.

3 hours ago, DeeDee said:

When on earth, the name of the man that we saw here (Jesus) was called "Jesus" by the people on the earth.

In heaven, the name of the man that we saw here (Jesus) is called "Michael" by the beings in heaven.

I thought how original, first  name of Lord is/was Word, as it explained by John 1:1. But again, JWorg said how his name is Michael also, and Lord and Prince and Archangel, Messiah and Son, god/God . Because all those names and titles are in possession of same person. 

But again if one person can have all those names and titles and positions and roles, he (Jesus) could also be Father, whatever this would or could mean in  theological and doctrinal meaning for believers.    :))

14 hours ago, DeeDee said:

For this very reason, GOD [Jehovah] exalted him [Jesus] to a superior position

and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name,

If i understand you correctly and if i understand this bible verse correctly NAME JESUS CHRIST IS ABOVE every other name, including THE NAME MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL?

But WT teaching that  Jesus went back to heaven after resurrection and that his name in heaven is Michael again (Michael one of the first Princes). What we shall do with this? 

"Some 80 reports of sexual abuse involving the Jehovah’s Witnesses community have been made over the past month, Trouw said on Thursday.

Justice minister Sander Dekker has already said that the (JW)church should look to the example of the Catholic church to dealing with complaints about sexual abuse."

"We are going to study the measures of the Catholic Church."

- Michel van Hilten, spokesman Jehovah's Witnesses

source;  

DutchNews.nl: Dozens come forward to report abuse by Jehovah’s Witnesses http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2017/12/dozens-come-forward-to-report-abuse-by-jehovahs-witnesses/

https://www.trouw.nl/religie-en-filosofie/minister-dekker-jehova-s-getuigen-moeten-misbruikbeleid-onder-de-loep-nemen-~a796d271/

11 hours ago, Cos said:

Folks

 

Isaiah 9:6 is a prophetic description of Christ. The phrase “his name” in Isaiah 9:6 is a Hebrew idiom ......

Hi Cos,

is this opens new angle on looking about all others IDIOMS, not only about prophetic description of Messiah but also about all other characters in OT; angels, JHVH, humans who acted in this and that role .... ? All in all, Bible giving various possibilities for different interpretations, and that is reality. Not only devils bad influence but humans wishes to give answers on things that are above idea, imagination how our  view on matter is only one correct.

You explained very good about term "firstborn". And that is something what WT scholars looking in different way. So here is so many Idioms :))))

greetings!   

18 hours ago, DeeDee said:

I am having trouble with the computer....

ohh, don't worry ...  sometimes i having trouble with myself :)))))))

9 hours ago, DeeDee said:

Would the expression, "Like Father, Like Son" be in line with what you are explaining?

...as in when a Son has a similar "nature and essence" to his Father?

GB of JW promoted for many decades worshiping of Jesus (perhaps only in theological, doctrinal way of how they view Jesus position. This fact was incorporated in Charter of WT Company until the end of 20 century. With few words in one sentence that said that very clearly. 

In Articles of Amendment (on WT Charter) in January 1945 they stated: 

Purpose of Society is ..........for public Christian worship of Almighty God and Christ Jesus.

It is notable how God is not named by his personal name! This is one sort of prove how Jesus and God are equal. Because they both are deserved to be worshiped according to PURPOSE OF WT SOCIETY. That was stance of Company for some half of century even JW members didn't been aware of this little detail :)))

If i was memorized correctly  in 1993 Amendment this sentence was thrown out from Charter. They not even using word WORSHIP any more.

So, WT Society and JW members for decades was standing behind Charter and worshiping Jesus, without any knowing they did that. It was just in theoretical sense, by supporting Charter. But black and white prove existing. :))

Problem with Father and Son teachings and interpretations on that, is just one of many that burdening this religion and their leadership from past until today.

source; http://watchtowerdocuments.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/1-1884-Charter-Handwritten-WM-R-BM-S-SEC-1.pdf

14 minutes ago, DeeDee said:

In that respect, Jesus could be referred to as our "Everlasting Father" (in that he will never die again) who gave us "Everlasting LIFE."

Fine! Then JHVH are not father any more. (from 33 CE officially ) Because Jesus adopted humans from JHVH by means of his death. Jesus became spiritual father to humans. Then it would be not appropriate, clear, right for christians, to talking about JHVH as Father any more, because as you explained, Jesus is Everlasting Father who giving everlasting life to humans.

Perhaps this deeper truth will be new light in the next issue of WT study magazine (simplified edition of course :))) ).

@Nana Fofana G.F. Handel And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed

What Lord? Lord Jesus? or Lord JHVH?

31 minutes ago, DeeDee said:

You do not teach a five-year-old child in the same way you would teach a sixteen-year-old.

yes you are right. But 5 year old and 16 year old KNOW who is his /her  FATHER.

Mother and Father not need to wait older age of child to explain who is his Father. They teach him that from first days. And this parents not calling someone else as his Father too, as father to own children. Some other is father for his children and can not be father to child from first parents, only by adoption :))

Well, ... why Isaiah calls (God's Son,Jesus) as Everlasting Father when Jesus teaching apostles that Father is someone else?  Who the children of Jesus are? 

48 minutes ago, DeeDee said:

What Scriptural claim are you referring to?

Is 9:6  For to us a child is born,
    to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

5 minutes ago, DeeDee said:

(Jesus) is NOT the "FATHER."

despite Isaiah, the true prophet of JHVH, claim???

15 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

everlasting father" instead of Adam for any of Adam's offspring who will "present his life.."  Isaiah  53

Yea, Adam is quilty as charged :)))

Isaiah 53: 1

"Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"

On first part of this question we can tell very confidently -- many are believers. (in various messages, hehe)

On second ... that is not easy one :))

8 minutes ago, DeeDee said:

The tittles in Isaiah 9:6 are also used by the Roman Catholic religion to refer to Jesus, so it is not only a WT book that interprets these words as referring to Jesus:

Thanks for information. But Catholic church is not "only true religion" and their interpretation on Bible are not guided by JHVH :)))))))

But what if both religion are in wrong about Isaiah?

JW members can not take for granted any of Catholic teachings. Because they are part of Babylon according to WT.

On other hand JW members can not be 100% sure in WT explanation also because WT history prove how their interpreting on Bible goes to extremes too.  For example. More than 50 years FDS assured members (domestic) how Jesus choose and appointed them in 1919. But they are not, after new "clarification" :)))) So can we trust GB? They teaching cross and Christmas as Bible truth for decades, but not any more. How can such "representative of god" be trustfull? They teached  "1914 generation" for decades as "bible based truth" but WHERE is this TRUTH today? 

:)))) Do not put your trust in earthly man! Even if he has appointed by god! :))