4 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

After imposing what discipline?, for they invariably would. It would be rebuke of some sort with sanctions - something not mentioned in the story.

"We are not entitled for privileged informations" according to "Shepherd book" :))

6 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is not in the same 'league.'

I thought that crime is crime, sorry for disturbing readers with inappropriate news.  

Bethel members. I know from first hand information about depressions inside Bethel. Especially female members are affected with such condition. 

In my hometown is branch office. One elder's wife is suicidal, recidivist, she attempted this many times.

Other single sis works in kitchen. Very hard job for her and she was and still is very depressed because of working condition.  I said still is, because have saw her (she is in my ex congregation) on street preaching. Not looking happy or satisfied, but she share "good news" - that is irony. You speaking about bright future but with unhappy face.

One elder, my good friend, hung himself in the age 61. In the basement of building. Wife found him, she just had a feeling how something is wrong that morning.

Young teenage girl cut her veins after elders gave her a lessons on, why she and  her two also under age sisters spend few days on holidays with dfd father.

This happened in this few years, what is in my knowledge. And how many is not known to me?

JWorg is very dangerous spiritual paradise place.   

On 10/8/2017 at 10:34, Arauna said:

Judas was sinning over a long period of time! before he betrayed him.

Hi. First i have to say how i agree with many of your thoughts in comment you gave. 

I just quote this sentence for reason of one thought came to me. According to WT teachings, each brother should act according to Matt. 18: 15-17.
Perhaps we may find justification for the apostles, why they did not follow this counsel of their teacher regarding Jude. But they were Jews and still were members of the Jewish Community and was obligated to act according to the Law. So, we can put the same question again, "Why they not done something to help Judas to change his steps, or report to Jesus. If Judas was so discreetly doing bad, evil things for years than i can ask, Did no one of apostles have eye to see? Why holy spirit not open their eyes? Why they not take care that their little congregations be holy and clean from such sin? and etc etc.

I just highlight these kind of perception and different angle of looking on Bible report about this event.  In connection to nowadays  practice i JW congregations. 

fine article. people need roof for shelter and for growing up family and to meet together for this or that.

But to making "consecration", "dedication"  of breaks and walls and parking lots is crazy idea. 

People need some reason to socialize, to meet together, to eat and drink, to talk. And if that reason must be finished buildings works, let be. But what is the benefit from that if doctrines  making people spiritually stupid and manipulated and departs from main Jesus teachings.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

convicted rapist and he was an elder, but that is extraordinarily rare,

"Another Jehovah’s Witness Elder Pleads Guilty to Sexually Abusing Teen Boy"

KTLA, Channel 5 [Los Angeles, California] reported that a former teacher in a now-closed private school in Long Beach (located at the south end of Los Angeles County) has finally agreed to a guilty plea for his 2007 crimes against children.

[BY ERIKA MARTIN AND KRISTINA BRAVO,  NOVEMBER 15, 2017]

http://ktla.com/2017/11/15/long-beach-private-school-teacher-jehovahs-witness-elder-pleads-guilty-to-sexually-abusing-teen-boy/

"In 2009, the teenager reported the abuse to the congregation, which then removed Gorski from his position as an elder, but allowed him to remain an active member. Gorski later moved to South Carolina and started attending a Jehovah’s Witnesses congregation in Charlotte, North Carolina."

10 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

By your rationale.

:)))) by "rationale" of JWorg web side "Gentiles" is equal to other word- "enemy". Article  "Keep On Doing Good" w08 5/15 p. 7-8 - some quotes;

DOING good to others can be a challenge. Those to whom we show love may not reciprocate... Jesus Christ told his disciples: “Continue to love your enemies and to do good.” (Luke 6:35) Let us now take a close look at this admonition. We will also benefit from other points Jesus made about doing good to others.....The Mosaic Law required that the Israelites stay separate from other nations, but the viewpoint had developed that all non-Jews were enemies, to be hated as individuals.....

and now  

 ^...Stressing how important it was for his disciples to ‘continue loving their enemies,’ Jesus said: “If you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing?” (Matt. 5:46, 47) If we were to limit our love to those who reciprocate, this would not merit any “reward,” or favor, from God. Even tax collectors, who were generally despised, showed love for people who loved them.—Luke 5:30; 7:34.

It is noteworthy that Jesus set out this rule of conduct: “All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must likewise do to them.” (Matt. 7:12) Only if we treat fellow humans in this way can we prove that we are true followers of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Rationale -----WT GB Rationale-----My Rationale-----Your Rationale -----------:))))))))))

5 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

Kind of confused how this is a "controversial topic." It's literally real, ongoing news

you are absolutely right, it is controversial for those who are not able to see  

33 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

Just that the idea of punishing "many" for the "crime" of just a "few

This idea is Bible based. David count people and God killed thousands of Israelites but David stayed on king throne  :)) 

22:28,19    "If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, ²⁹ he shall pay her father fifty shekels^[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."

Here we have strange situation. Rapist are obligated to marry her. And she is obligated to "respect rapist" as husband. 

Very inspired verses. Imagine how can look like family life after such events.

In this matters no one ask for "witness". Just said, "if they are discovered".  Why?   

Similarity in wording (witness) we have im Matt 18:15-17

Words says that some "brother commits a sin". Who know that he sinned? Obviously "you" (he is "YOUR brother"). You are witness or you heard from someone else. But for me logic and justifiability for your action is that you personally are witnessed to something that make you worried and how brother's action (in words or deeds), you by your reason and understanding consider as sin. 
Because of that you go in person (eye to eye) to tell him your feelings and view and ask him to explain his side of story. If you had not make issue clear in this initial conversation or perhaps in few more conversations ( WHY to stop on one conversation?? as they said here "night is wiser", that means you have to sleep over at least one night to continue on decision :)))))), and his answer and explanation not satisfied you, by Matthews words, you can if you want, to call, to involve some other persons (be careful whom you choose!) and then in one or few more conversations, arguing, reasoning try to establish more facts about what you see and how you see - and what he done or not done - and how it is possible to explain in wider context what happened or does exist some other explanation on issue. If all involved parties are honest and with open mind and not want to be self-righteous, perhaps this second step or steps can be seen as some sort of "investigation", but as in third step (before elders) persons that are involved in all this "suffer and misery" must be impartial and not want to highlight to achieve just or only LAW and RULES but JUSTICE. Justice is above every Law. Because Love is above all and Love loving Justice and Mercy and Compassion - not Law.

Fisher, Your observation was on rape and murder. This in Matthew seems something benign in comparison to OT example. Ancient people was also faced with problem of how to established, how to find the truth about what was really happened in situation when no one saw the event.  Perhaps "witness" is not just and only someone who saw or hear act and words. But "witness" can or should be also persons who participate in whole process about somebody and something. Just thought  

1 hour ago, Gone Fishing said:

Do not you see the parallel of a member of the group?

Andrey was chief police. And he chased bad guys. Bad guys aka mafia made revenge for that he was acting according to law. They killed all his family because they was Andrey family members. Members of this family payed price for only one reason, they are blood related, have same surname.  ---- This is crime, terror act.

JW members around the world  have same "surname" and are "blood related" to WT GB- their Mother. WT GB acting according to God's law (and WT GB is good guys:))) but in a manner they think is lawful and justifiable. Then Worldly Court "mafia" in California attack WT, break their home and stealing  $4000 per day. One other Worldly Court "mafia" in Russia went one step further. Members of WT family are in distress. They are in fear for they life. Any moment Court "mafia" will fine them also with money punishment or by putting them in jail or by killing them.  

Is this what you try to tell me? 

Yes, it can be in this way too. But my point on "private and collective responsibility" is in relation: human and God , and Rev 18:4 as you point out. Would punishment of any sort come from God directly or through human and human organization or by nature catastrophe or by .... it is difficult to say, for me difficult   

 

 

 

   

17 hours ago, Anna said:

Really? Is that what you really believe?

:))))) inspiration must to come somehow. At least once a week... for GB, while sitting together in conference room and debate about present, perfect and future  

9 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Bit like the suspected reasons for the targeting of Andrey Gosht's family?

Please Fisher, help me with this, i am not sure what you wish to tell me. I went on google about this Andrey, terrible crime.  Are whole family are responsible for Andreys job as policeman? Or they just pay price for his family member acting, deeds?  

8 hours ago, Anna said:

I have to disagree with this.  Just because you are a child, doesn't mean you are incapable, talk to parents everywhere and they will tell you children can be very capable! When that child has a strong emotional bond with their parent, and knows they can trust a parent, even if they do not fully understand something, then they will be more than eager to listen to that parent. Especially small children (as they get older they have their own ideas). It's interesting to see that worldly attitudes tend to focus on the cure rather than prevention. How much better is it when a child does not even have to experience such a traumatic event, rather than having to spend years in psychological counseling. How much better is it when people prevent diseases by living a healthy lifestyle, rather than spend the rest of their life visiting doctors and taking pills.  A child who is taught that certain actions that some people do are wrong, they tend to run and tell their parent on them if they identify it. That, coupled with vigilant parents who do not leave their children unattended and who recognize the signs of suspicious behavior on the part of someone who is interacting with their child, then that child's safety is almost guaranteed. But of course you can't expect that sort of discipline from everyone, especially not when they are dysfunctional in some way, or if they do not value God's laws. Regardless of anything though, blame is never put on the victim.

You can't rely on training a rapist not to be one, but you can train yourself not to be a victim.

This is just one facet, one side of looking to problem that exist.   i see your trying, thanks. 

11 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Is, the Court Judge, our brethren, and the courthouse a Kingdom Hall?

Why not? Matt chapter 5 

"And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even Gentiles do the same?"

If JW congregants would organizing some bible public talk or convention in such space - it would be KH :))))) as sports stadium or other worldly object that JW using for similar activity, ahahhahaa  

10 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

So, what you are saying, The Roman government had the right to kill Jesus, Good to know your mentality. I believe you have just answered the Deuteronomist question of "Thou shall NOT steal" that can be applied to the outrageous court daily sanction. Now you can add the double-edged sword!!!

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-judges-discipline-20150404-story.html

According to you!!! the Watchtower. I'll ask you again, do you believe the Watchtower is doing the devils work? you didn't answer the question on another thread!!!!

Dear Allen! 

You are not born yesterday. And you are very well aware of one fact - Justice and Law are not always in harmony. Romans government in 1 century was secular authority and ....  

 "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." - good or bad.

Answer is in this verse/verses in Romans 13. Please, do not drag me into your mental muddy water.  

5 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

 The devil led him to Jerusalem and had

Who is your devil today, this evening (in my place is 10.14 pm) 

21 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

Look up the word "precedence" to understand what the San Diego judge is attempting to achieve by overstepping his legal authority.

... and God have done some precedent action too, so why would not San Diego judge set his precedent too? He have God's permission for such action. God put him to that position according to JHVH words in Bible. 

If some worldly Judge make favor decision for WT, you would praise God for that, don't you?

So praise God also, when Judge made decision that is not for WT benefit. 

24 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

And your point regarding this???

just illustration for wider picture, you will find connection  

21 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

"collective", (think I understand this term),

What is COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY?

Law Dictionary: What is COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY? definition of COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY (Black's Law Dictionary) 

16 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

CALIFORNIA CODE

1030. Member of the clergy. As used in this article, a “member of the clergy” means a priest, minister, religious practitioner, or similar functionary of a church or of a religious denomination or religious organization.

BIBLE CODE

"You are all brothers"

P.S. “All You Are Brothers”.NWT

7 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

they're OBEYING the laws of the land

if they obey, why they have problem with Courts and other Secular Governmental Bodies in various countries?

11 minutes ago, Witness said:

The Bible makes clear, that there are cases which DO NOT require two witnesses

Yes Bible talking about that, but "sheep" not using own mental power, powered by holy spirit, to make conclusions. They, generally, let to GB to made conclusion for them.

About possible future changing on "two witness rule", the rule GB defends with body and mind hahha. Perhaps WT decide to accept criminal forensic as "second witness". Not just another human witness :))))))

42 minutes ago, Anna said:

Well that's an easy one

Yes it is easy for those Bethel Princes in WT who sitting in comfortable offices and deeply meditates about some stuff, would it be this or that and then get in is some kind of trans and find some really bright ideas about issue. Put that in publications and JW org and conventions. Drilling JW members with ideas and dfd those if they do not agree. And after few years or few decades decide to change that doctrine with "new light" mantra. For WT "bible scholars" it is easy, i agree.

For rest of members? - that depends on various personal factors :)))) live to your imagination what would this factors be.  

19 minutes ago, Witness said:

Check page 4

Yes Witness, i know that, thanks for excellent link.

I just made irony with Allen Smith comments. He connected "Priest Confidence" as justification for JW elders. But for rank and file members it would be confusing to hear how he compare gods shepherds aka elders with Catholic priesthood. WT denied existence of priest-laity distinction among JW members. But this is exactly what they have. Distinction.  

For public everyday using JWorg say, "we don't have priests, clergy, hierarchy" - but in Courts WT lawyers claims opposite. Hypocrites!