Srecko Sostar

Geoffrey Jackson expose before ARC in 2015 mentioned this issue in answering to Judge questions.

Natural God given Conscience vs Artificial, so called "bible trained conscience", imposed and ruled by GB I hope that, giving like, upvote and approval on your perception ability, given by me to your comments would not insult you Â

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This kid was in adult age at that time and rest of family has been couraged to maximally limit contacts with him and "counseled" how spiritual health of family would be better if df kid find another place for living. "Counsels" was in all kinds of instructions, Bible, examples from WT publications and informations that elders have on such matters. As to my knowledge, this df kid feeled this emotional coldness and spiritual pressure that was puted on rest of family and because such conditions lived the house. How was looked all that in everyday real life i do not know, but it is possible to imagine all tensions, fears, tears, inside battles of mind and heart... You can not believe that such young children were baptised in JWorg ? :)))

I know some JW members (family) with very sad experience. Family with few children. Parents are divorced. One parent stayed with 4 minor children. The oldest was baptized in age of 6 as i recall. Then with time all other children was baptized but also in young teenage age. First child was df about in time of high school. Stayed under same roof, but rest of "faithful" members reduce very much contacts. Elders made pressure on family to throw df child out of home. And child was gone after some time. One by one rest of children was also left JWorg. In one moment while they was been member of cong. elders made pressure and rebuke all them because they (children) spend few days in summer time with their df father. After such emotional torture of elders one minor kid cut vein on hands and must be hospitalized. After that "last drop" for her young mind and emotions, all went down. She is "damaged". And no one of elders take responsibility for her "soul". Is that good material for Court? Is that violation of Human Rights that was made under/because of Church Rules and Policy? Is it possible to separate so called "religious, doctrinal interpretations of Bible text" with "rules and instructions made by JW Clergy, Priesthood" vs Natural Law vs Secular Law? WT JWorg are private Company in the very core, in essence. And as such been legalized in various country as Company, Charity Society or similar entities. As such is under some General Law and Acts. Every JW member became member, get status of membership at the moment of baptism. And by that act Contract was made between minor children or adult person and WT Company. Court have no interest to made decisions is some religious teaching or doctrine right or wrong, true or false. But when belief system produce "emotional torture" and other sort of torture, intellectual, spiritual, psychological - then that can be material for secular authorities.

This remembered me on one past event. One brother with few bro who worked for them have to do some works in my house. And after job was done i noticed some things that was not the way it should be. I called him by phone and try to explain and called him to come to see. He don't want to hear about it but said he has done all as i told him to do. And i also was hear from brother (elder) who recommended to me his service work, that i must right a letter to his congregation and this and that. I give up of such idea and fixed problem by myself :)) About money, i know also for sister who borrow money from other sister in cong. whose worldly husband was rich. Sister borrow money to her and never get it back. I borrow some money to bro, and never get it back :))) But never sue him to elders, waste of time and nerves. Perhaps i am not handling things in good way, too passive for "put things right". hehe

Interesting and very complex issue. It is hard to read legal matters from link you provide, but is good example how it is difficult to judge and to be Judge aka elders in judicial committees. This just shows how is better for elders to not be so sure, or proud and arrogant  in self righteous and abilities in handling on people's life,   in their judgements of acts, motives and emotions, and "repents signs" of accused person in congregation. "...he believed honestly and reasonably that the..." "...words "knowingly or wilfully", it is a valid defence for an accused to show that he acted upon the honest belief that the ..." Put name Paul or someone like him in OT or NT records about some events. For the "sake of argument" can we tell how Paul is "guilty" for been approved, involving stoning of Stephen or persecution of Jesus followers (it is reasonable to believe how many of them are wounded and killed) . Did he "believed honestly and reasonably" how his action is according to The Law? YES HE DID. Did he done that "knowingly or wilfully"? YES HE DID. What will be, what should be verdict? Or Is it this case for judging at all? One man died. Many people suffered and died.  Who will take responsibility for so many ruined lives? Or should we can say, this was God's plan for Paul, because that is what he need to change his mind and become apostle? :)) By what sort of law, by whom,  Paul's deeds have to be processed. By what precedence he would be judged and set free or guilty for death of other people? Civil Law, Congregational Law, JHVH Law???        Â

1881 as Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society 1884 as Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society, Inc In 1896, the society was renamed Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, Inc WTBTS of Pennsylvania, New York and other sister companies around the world. Corporation have (to mention few things): Registered Agent, Share per Value, Number of Authorized shares of Stock, Directors, Officers, Corporate Law, Business Administration, Limited Liability, Delegated Management, The Board of Directors, Shareholders. Annual Meeting is nothing else but Annual Meeting of Shareholders (300-500 in WT) Program is mixture of Bible interpretations and reports about company's operations in the current year with and how looks plans for future period. This is what JW members listen in fact via JW TV broadcast National Television. (lucky for them without any commercials about shampoo or pasta..., for now. Asking for money is not commercial :)))))

Definition of vindicate vindicated; vindicating transitive verb 1a :to free from allegation or blame b (1) :confirm, substantiate (2) :to provide justification or defense for :justify c :to protect from attack or encroachment :defend  Definition of sanctification 1:an act of sanctifying 2a :the state of being sanctified b :the state of growing in divine grace as a result of Christian commitment after baptism or conversion   If you allow me to say; Do not worry about JHVH as name or He as God. He can take care of himself quite well. JW members, or you as one of them , need to take care about personal, private protecting own sanctification because - "The generic meaning of sanctification is "the state of proper functioning."  In the theological sense, things are sanctified when they are used for the purpose God intends. A human being is sanctified, therefore, when he or she lives according to God's design and purpose. Wish  you all best! :))  Â

My ex friend, he is still JW (dissident JW, hehe) ones told me how Yearbook is modern Bible for JW. Wonder, what he thinking now or what he told after heard this good news. :))))

I remembered that  one WT study edition mentioned (before 25-30 years) how cca 60 000 JW members are df every year. Recently i have been read that this number now is about 80 000 per year. It depends on JW person, and how he/she have need to focus himself on particular doctrines :))))) Adjust our thinking is good thing. But is that necessary to be according to GB adjustments or to some other source/s  is/are for further consideration. Would  it be ok that JW member and/or person who are in study process to become JW, be warned in advance, that with accepting today's "light" he/she is not in "light" at all? And to understand how "the truth" at this very moment of his present  time, while he adopts it  as "pure water of truth from JHVH  spiritual table" is/are in fact under huge question and with real possibility and not only possibility but reality, how big portion of "food" is/are incorrect doctrines? And that his Second Yes (on second baptismal question from June 1 1985), on the day of baptism, means Yes for the progress will continue  And Not For The Main Reason - "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." Because he in fact don't know the truth for reason of - the truth are in progress and no one knows what will progress look like.  You are, dear JWI, very experienced and you know very well how own opinions ended after judicial committee found that person is not "repentant enough and want to hold on own opinions" - ahahhaha. Because what is the purpose of having Own Opinions only on this or similar Forums and not be able that "this fire inside you" go out in the world and give testimony to other, to be Witness for Jesus, as he command or ask or hope we would be? To give even wrong testimony, it is not fail, because tomorrow is new day and our personal truth will experienced enlightening and will be new truth next day. :)))) Â

This is from her official website; Barbara Anderson was a member of Jehovah’s Witnesses from 1954 through 1997. She worked at Watchtower’s headquarters in Brooklyn, NY, from 1982 to 1992 where during her last four years there, she researched the movement’s official history (published in 1993) and did research as well as wrote a number of articles for their Awake! magazine. While working in the organization’s Writing Department, Barbara discovered that the Watchtower organization covered up child sexual molestation committed by Jehovah’s Witnesses.....

Normally. :):) Perhaps my English is not sufficient, but here i see two separate issue. 1) expelled from congregation 2) not be properly repentant. My question is, For what reason Wall was disfellowshipped? Because of "for getting drunk" or because he was not been "properly repentant" ??? If he was df because of "been drunk" we can complicate issue on this with questions; Who can determine "drunkenness", by what parameter public can see that one person is drunk? By his walking left/right? By alcometer and degrees of alcohol in blood as in traffic law? Who and how and by what behaviour others can said, He is drunk? What is permitted level of alcohol in JW congregation to be able to say, this bro or sis drinking too much? This questions are just for mediate a little more on issue. Another thing is "not be properly repentant". This is very slip area. Even for "spiritually mature" elders :))))). I will not talking this time about how "Sheperd book" try to explain what is the "signs" of "truthful" repentance. It is complicated for elders to be judges of MOTIVES, and by entering in repentance issue, that is what in fact it is. Entering in "heart and mind and kidneys". Elders has no education, education of several levels, only some personal experience, to be able to properly look into the "deepness of soul". So by that i hold understanding how no one can be, and should not be disfellowshipped due to "quantity, types and the way of expression" of repentance. This is area for lawyers and philosophers and other sociologists and anthropologist. But i would cut this "knot" very easy for the purpose of this panel discussion. Romans 13:1 nwt said: "Let every person* be in subjection to the superior authorities,+ for there is no authority except by God;+ the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.+ 2 Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves. 3 For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad.+ Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good,+ and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath* against the one practicing what is bad. By this inspired words, as to my interpretation and understanding , secular authority can, if they want, going into the field of "church rules and regulations, customs and social mores of group" to determine is it acceptable or not.

Perhaps GB stick to the story of multiplying Masters money in too literal meaning and working with money in various ways. Investments funds of all sorts, buying, selling and building real estates. ... And is it not strange how US people, citizens are founders of WT Company-Religion? Because US are very good soil for prosperity in various way. hehe

The Witnesses purchased the building in 1975 . Who normally would have spend money to buy building in this old  wicked system just before 1975 Armageddon ?? Â

Did Jesus, when on earth, wear a beard? Certainly it was a custom strictly held by the Jews. Jesus, born a Jew, “came to be under law” and he fulfilled the Law. (Ga 4:4; Mt 5:17) Like all other Jews, Jesus was dedicated to Jehovah God from his birth, by reason of the Law covenant, and was under obligation to keep the whole Law, including the prohibition on shaving the extremity of the beard. Also, at the time that Jesus was on earth, the Roman custom was beardlessness. Therefore, if Jesus had been beardless, he would have been challenged as being either a eunuch or a Roman. Significantly, a prophecy concerning Jesus’ suffering states: “My back I gave to the strikers, and my cheeks to those plucking off the hair.”—Isa 50:6. - Insight, Volume 1 p. 266-267 In old Israel "spiritual paradise" of 1 century male congregants wear beard. That was fine way to show they belonged to true religion in opposition to Romans who surrounded them, physically and spiritually . Today JW members living also in own spiritual paradise. And they are surrounded too, physically and spiritually, by "Romans and Egyptians and others". But it is little confusing, because one part of those "worldly people" wears beards and one part not. So it is really difficult for GB to make up their mind and chose what is the best solution for male JW members. How to make right distinction between JW who wear beard and non-JW who wear beard too?? How to make right distinction between JW who are beardless and non-JW who are also beardless?? :)))))) P.S. Perhaps by allways be in the suit and tie everywhere. Beach, swimming pool, mowing in the garden ...

yeah, not the same. I put ? by mistake. Thanks. Will delete sign ? :))

Just to heat up a little about; sin, ransom, dead. "What Does the Bible Really Teach?", chapter five about Ransom, JWorg library quotes;  "It is a gift from God to mankind... Clearly, then, when Adam disobeyed God and was condemned to death, he paid a very high price. His sin cost him his perfect human life with all its blessings. (Genesis 3:17-19) Sadly, Adam lost this precious life not only for himself but also for his future offspring. GodÂ’s Word says: “Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” (Romans 5:12). ...The idea of a ransom basically involves two things. First, a ransom is the price paid to ...Second, a ransom is the price that covers, or pays, the cost of something....By sacrificing, or giving up, his perfect life in flawless obedience to God, Jesus paid the price for AdamÂ’s sin. Jesus thus brought hope to AdamÂ’s offspring.—Romans 5:19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22......  WHAT THE RANSOM CAN MEAN FOR YOU 14, 15. To receive “the forgiveness of our sins,” what must we do? 1)The forgiveness of sins 2)A clean conscience before God. 3)The hope of everlasting life on a paradise earth. NOW LET GET SOME ISSUE to comment  Rom. 6:23 NWT say; "For the wages sin pays is death,..." and JW org explained this verse that when human died he/she are free of every sin he/she made while was living.   (compare with this translation; "For the wages of sin is death, NIV) not the same  By this WT explanation Jesus ransom came to be unnecessary because particular person pay for sins, that had made, by own death. But as it said in "Teaching book", Jesus paid the price for AdamÂ’s sin. By this then we come to point that our present sins would not be covered by Jesus sacrifice, because Jesus paid price only for Adam's sin and not for sins we made after acknowledge and accepting Jesus, because as some JW members had said in connection to Bible verse in Heb. 10.. How would be paid price for sin if person have not died? For example, JW members survived Armageddon and as sinful imperfect humans start to living in Paradise. But they are still imperfect and doing sin. Who covered their sins?? We still have Romans 6:23-  "For the wages sin pays is death".  Heb 10:26, 27 said, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,  but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." BUT again if we died even in that state of "deliberately sinning" as imperfect humans, than our dead will/would cover all sins we done, because after you die you are free of all your sins - Rom 6:23 again. And by that you can wait in grave for for second, third, fourth chance :))))))) But here is something else what we can find in Bible, so please meditate about and try to explain what sins will be, would be covered by death of this people and under what circumstances, and when and for whom get, take benefits from the deaths of this people ??????? -Proverbs 11:8; 21:18 and Isaiah 42:1-3    P.S. Additional verses: Isaiah 43:3; Ex. 30:12; Num. 3:46-51; Ps. 49:7; Romans 3:24Â

Is waiting problem? What Bible say: "Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a longing fulfilled is a tree of life." (Proverbs 13:12) Who, what can bring hope, comfort instead disappointment: "For just as we share abundantly in the sufferings of Christ, so also our comfort abounds through Christ."(2. Cor 1:5) BUT as explained here "sufferings of Christ", NOT in sufferings according to GB interpretations of what are, what can be, what have to be this sufferings. Would people be disappointed for reasons of Christ teachings or for reasons of human interpretations on Christ teachings?? You or me can take that luxus (done from our comfortable room) and judge motives and reasons for someone's disappointed and perhaps so called "spiritual fall". But is it fall or just awakening from dream and deceived mind we builded through years in JWorg? Answers for your question are not, can not be just "simplified edition" (WT magazine simplified edition, hehehe) as we can conclude in first look. We can make "general conclusion" but it would be unjustifiable and without deep insight on human and influence of this or that thing that was make them compliant, easily influenced from organized religion hierarchy (clergy, priests, elders, GB) My comments are just starting to open the door for answers.

15 Spiritual food from the faithful and discreet slave class is disseminated to local congregations by appointed elders. The Bible admonishes us: “Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.” (Heb. 13:17) Does this mean that congregation elders are infallible? Of course not! God sees their imperfections more clearly than any human can. Still, he expects us to be submissive. Cooperating with the elders, even though they are imperfect, gives evidence that we accept Jehovah’s authority. - w08 6/15 p. 21-22 Things that would be damaging us is/are accepting anything that this imperfect humans told members they have to do. Biblical logic is this: One Bible verse (Heb. 13:17) told people how they need to obey other human who are leading, governing over other group of people. It is a little weird that Paul talking about "elders" (in fact human who have same imperfections as "flock") as those who "keeping watch over your souls" . How one human can watch soul of another human at all? Adult person can watch over kids and children. But after person had come to some "maturity" he/she is responsible to own "soul" not John or Mark. You personally will give "answer" for yourself. And no one else will be responsible for your fall or rise. Second Bible verse (Rom. 13:1) said: "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God. Here we have command that "elders and flock" are under "worldly authority". Did/Does JWorg obey all what secular authority put on JW members? We all know that it is not the case. WT JW org found "biblical reasons" why not to obey, to be submissive to secular authority. For the same way of logic it would be normal for JW flock to refuse to obey (to put himself in submissive position) some or many or every instruction that come from GB, elders or WT Company. Third Bible verse. (Eccl. 8:9) "All of this I have seen, and I applied my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, during the time that man has dominated man to his harm. " Even WT teaching that it is not JHVH will, it is not natural, that men rule over another men. And how He is not created men for such purpose. But WT Company still have hierarchy as any other worldly Company (or church).

Oh man :))) You have done little or lot of research by quoting some bible verses, but please "translate", put it in plain and simple language of life you live every day, if possible.

-quotation from some WT article, i supposed: "Ask yourself: ‘Does my religion promote genuine love toward all, even toward those who may want to hurt me?" Mr Erwing You can be partially right in your response to me. But my copy/paste of this sentence had other purpose. To put in some everyday reality with this claim and to hear answers; what is, how look like that essence, that moving power in religious doctrine, in teachings in deeds "of my religion". To be possible and to be sure how that "something" in "religion" can, will, would produce in some believer, or in me personally, to "love" someone whose intention is to hurt you. "Normal" reaction on someone's "attack" on you is to make self defend or to fight back or to run away. But how is looks like "loving your attacker" is little mystery to me. What is "genuine" love? What is meaning of , how looks like "love toward hurter? How looks promoting love to hurter?

But "the car" is here, it is reality, it exist, it moves. No matter about what those around "the car" thinking

Anna, it is possible that i missed a point, or not understand quite clear, in this sentence. Would you simplified it for me, please, in some other words. Selfish things (what selfish things?) and - who done selfish things? Disappointed people? Or people who are not disappointed and stay in WT org? Thanks in advance.