Srecko Sostar

4 hours ago, Anna said:

I don't really see what this has anything to do with what I've been talking about....

You will, i hope, some day :))

4 hours ago, Anna said:

I don't mind you trying to identify what the problem is, I think your English is very good and I can understand what you are saying, so go ahead!

Thanks Anna  

21 minutes ago, Anna said:

Well didn’t Jesus become the founder of Christianity?

In general, all names or labels, etiquette that have connections to Jesus way of teaching and living is given by people of 1. century or later. Jesus had not give any name to his own "movement". And if he organized something that has been, sending to preaching, nothing else. 

 

37 minutes ago, Anna said:

gathering together,....where two or three are gathered in ChristÂ’s name..

No problem! But it is need to understand how first Christ followers, as Paul who wrote many things about "organizing" in fact imitate Jews congregation that God rejected in the same time. Because they, first christians, was in fact Jews people, and they technically replicate religious system in which they lived. I the same time they tried to integrate NEW Teachings from his Master. New teachings that has been "apostate teaching" according to Jewish Clergy and Mosaic Law.

 

47 minutes ago, Anna said:

"but only the one doing the will....

1 hour ago, Anna said:

Doing" and "obedience" play a major role...

 

You Anna make complain if I find only one example in Bible :))) Maybe i am not reading enough to find more examples, heehe. Ok, i have again just one bible report on this.  The evildoer who was hang beside Jesus have no one of preconditions that JW said is crucial for salvation. Bible study, changing bad deeds to good deeds, prayers, congregational meetings, baptism, going to preaching and many other rules and commands that has to be obeyed.. He do only one thing, just said; "I believe!" So if Jesus accepted just words why you or other JW teaching how this is not enough?  

57 minutes ago, Anna said:

You come with ONE report,

    One report is enough if you believe that is inspired and truthful and that all Word is beneficial. OT and NT. I have permission to called it "old" because i as people from "Gentile" have no obligation to follow or to be in obey to  any of Mosaic law and command. So, i am free to consider and accept it or to be critical in my thinking about OT. The same is with NT also. Because, as i mentioned before, there is some "principles" or teachings that has their roots in OT congregations and Law. And as Jesus teaches, his disciples are not under obligation to obey and follow The Law. But in 1 century first congregation done just same mistake JW doing today, replicate OT Law in Christian congregation.  It is little delicate to discuss on this because it is tricky to see what is problem in fact. And my english is not enough also. Thanks to all who are patient with my grammar and all mistakes in writing :)) 

13 hours ago, Anna said:

but if they wanted to get saved they would have to become Christians wouldn't they?

Anna, if by "have to become Christians" you thought on obligation that person become part of organized religion, in your case JWorg, or in case of other believers, Catholic or Adventist and so on... than i will not be so sure about that. 

Even in case that somebody became member of "only true religion" aka JWorg, that not be assurance for salvation, as you very well quoted Jesus words, “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ ...” so we can come to conclusion that is Gods choice to whom he give "salvation", no matter is person or not part of JWorg.

14 hours ago, Anna said:

That is not a scriptural teaching if you put it in a scriptural context.

Yes i have one fine bible example to support my view. Naaman, commander of army, gentile, idol worshiper, get salvation from JHVH without any BUT in spiritual, religious or moral proviso. Only BUT was about in what river to take a bath. After that Naaman recognize JHVH as  "only God" but there is no report he became "proselyte", worshiper of JHVH, left his family or nation or position as commander. He has some conscious dilemmas, it is explained in  5:18, but even that this was not problem for JHVH that Naaman make worship to idols. JHVH never, according to Bible reports, say something against Naaman or give any conclusion about that matter. So, he gave freedom to us to made some conclusion :)))))   

 

14 hours ago, Anna said:

how about God is preparing people to live under his government.

  He have hard job  

28 minutes ago, Anna said:

In other words can it be said that religion, just like race or social status does not matter to God either? The Bible seems to indicate that it does matter to God. It indicates that the impartiality does have a condition attached to it.

Those famous words about god's impartiality = rain and sun to all people. It is only a basic illustration that shows how God's impartiality is unlimited. And he does not look at race, social status, ...... and affiliation with religion. Why you skip religion???? Did not Jesus show impartiality in every way to "gentiles" to people of other religion?? How can you talk about impartiality of God and then you use word BUT??? If you are impartial then you can not be that with But. "I will help you but...I will love you but...I will take care of you but....I will give my life for you but.......Anna can you not see nonsense?  There is no impartiality if you set the condition, proviso, stipulation. Story about Samaritan going further in lightening what mean impartiality, to love people of other religion, nation, to showing compassion, doing good for stranger from you not expecting nothing in return. With other words, without any BUT. 

50 minutes ago, Anna said:

God has not abandoned his pattern of having a people, a group, unitedly worshiping together like he did in ancient times

You rely too much on old patterns. You forget that Jesus changed all this. He brought completely different things. And you want to go back to what He left. He does not seek an organization. Jesus collects his flock. His flock is not in the church, in the building. His flock is not in organized religion. His instructions are not listed in the law, in the Charter of WT corporation or in Charter of every JW congregation, in the books, and in the journals and magazines. His "law", his spirit and love He writing directly in people's heart, not looking who is who. And when He touched person, "repentance", and not only repentance, will occur in that special, unique moment of very soul, in the time of silence or in a time of scream, in a time of tears or in a time of empties. And will change us. In this or that direction.  

2 hours ago, David Normand said:

How other people act regarding their confession of faith is their business.

I am very sure how similar or the same view as you expressed with this sentence many other people have too. If "spiritual education that JW received in WTis the best in the World, than it would be expected, i would expected, higher level of contemplation and "spiritual maturity", and not so simplified "not my business" attitude.

2 hours ago, David Normand said:

Though I disagree with their decision it is not really for me to argue with them about it. 

If you David, are one of JW then by WT and Bible teaching in NT you have to be interest in talking to people of opposite view and "argue" or as WT Reasoning book in it title have word , you need to "reasoning" with them and to help them and to rescue them from false religion and lies they think are true, from satan philosophy and wrong expectations of future. If you are not JW, receive my apologize. But nevertheless, are you or not JW, it is good for soul to develop more compassion and interest in people, at least, to have better understand of people behaviour :)))

2 hours ago, David Normand said:

If I pray for Jehovah to lessen their suffering and he does so, who gets the recognition. They will think that they were alleviated from their suffering because of their (Baptists, Catholics, Adventists, Hindustanis) faith and will not see that Jehovah is the true God.

Here you need to have attitude "not my business". Because it is JHVH business to open people's mind and heart and NOT YOURS  it is of God's concern how people would interpret events in their lives. As it also case with JW members who interpret events in the way that suits to them. :))))))))  with help of GB.

2 hours ago, David Normand said:

Jehovah is not partial in that he allows the rain to fall on the sinner and righteous one.

Is this really as far as you can go in mediate about God's impartiality??????????    

2 hours ago, David Normand said:

What Prayers Does Jehovah Answer?" Basically, (1) Jehovah answers prayers directed to him (2) offered through his son (3) petition is in harmony with his principles or plan. 

Are you kidding me David? WT publications are full of experience about "worldly" people who prayed to "GOD" not knowing his name, not say "in Jesus name, amen", and not knowing nothing about "harmony in principles and plan", and Bible have examples too about people who prayed to God and He listen to them and helped them, despite how  they were "Gentiles". Ohhh man, if this "requirements", formalities which man has to satisfy before God in order that God could hear him, than all people who are not praying by JW model will never be heard by God, and they have never been heard in the past. Unbelievable :))))))))))))  

13 hours ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

...misunderstand the concept. Especially when one brings division into the church ...

It is very nice that you put two translations of same verse, perhaps it will be good to use more of it. Because NWT have some err. 
it is not the same when NWT say - "obey your leaders" but Jesus said one is your leader, (so this is very big err in NWT), and if we hear "have confidence" NIV, but in all that one thing is more important - elders have to earn that trust from the people.

BUT my prime reason to respond on your comment above was this: It is not matter if  "one brings division into the church", in fact it is good to put on test and fire human doctrines, AND JESUS SUPPORT THAT TOO. YOU ASK HOW? READ THE BIBLE PLEASE. JESUS SAID: 

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it. – Jesus (Matthew 10:34-38)

According to this i am afraid that you are not familiar with "bible  principles, prophesies, teachings and many more". :))))

I'm sorry, but I think that the view JW members has on these and similar events is under the influence of GB leadership and their interpretation of events to the public with help of JWTV and publications.

JW members are very much constrained by their own lives in the WT Corporation and do not see how other people suffer because of religious beliefs too, whether they are Christians or "Gentiles". Bible stating - "God is impartial!!" - what does it mean for those who are not JW ??? Does JHVH are insensitive for suffering of those people, but only give, pay attention for JW prayers and their letters to Russia? If your Father is impartial, so you as JW member need to pray and for suffers that have Baptists, Catholics, Adventists, Hinduists ....because with such heart and mind and attitude you will imitate Father and Son, as in story of Samaritan. So please start to write letters also for people of other confessions as proof of impartiality :))))   

When I was in jail for "neutrality" as JW, there was also two Adventist boys and two Nazarene boys, for the same issue . Two Adventist boy has been beaten by jail guards because they refused, for the reason of faith of course,  to clean the floors at Saturday, because Saturday is day not for working but for spiritual matters, things. Can they be "wise in front of unbelievers" or those suffer was God's will for them? Or God just allowed their suffer? Because, they were convinced, suffer  is for Jesus name?!  How you as JW member would "judge" their faith and their persistent to not obey secular authorities? Do you think of them as fanatics, as  misdirected zeal?? I am quite sure that JW would say how their faith and believes are not worthy and how Jesus not asking them that and how they wrongly interpret Bible, how their doctrine are err.

Please look in the own mirror, and you will see how "their" face  and "your" face look the same at the end of the day .....or in the morning.:))))))  

2 hours ago, Brenda K Kniffin said:

I am still trying to Figure you out

hehe Brenda, do not worry about JTR. More important is to have own introspective and testing yourself. Because, as you can see, WT medal is double sided. Double face, one for public, other for those who search for the accurate truth about WT history.  

On 10/20/2017 at 10:43, Arauna said:

The hate speech against the governing body on this forum is showing the fruits clearly.

As about me - i have no hate speech, just Critical Thoughts and Reasoning    

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

Give me answer please...

All answers on this and other similar questions are published in WT publications and magazines and tracts.  ...and in a NWT Bible, but only at the end of the book,  in the Appendix, hehehehehe  

9 hours ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

That would obviously, depend on what you are willing to accept, by “menÂ’s” commentary here.

For me, all is human, men's commentary here. Some looks like your yin yang circle in black and white, some have colors .... and we all need to test all those ideas, logic, reason. We all do that with more or less success.

"... the Pharisees and the teachers of the law..." (aka GB scholars) can be furious on some JW members liberty to put in questions their doctrines and instructions BUT that is normal because Bible also said so - "test the spirit...." 1.John 4:1-5. If some dare to test the spirit of GB he/she is not doing nothing that would be against "bible principles"   

"If we were following a man undoubtedly it would be different with us; undoubtedly one human idea would contradict another and that which was light one or two or six years ago would be regarded as darkness now: But with God there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning, and so it is with truth; any knowledge or light coming from god must be like its author. A new view of truth never can contradict a former truth. New light never extinguishes older light, but adds to it. If you were lighting up a building containing seven gas jets you would not extinguish one every time you lighted another, but would add one light to another and they would be in harmony and thus give increase of light. So is it with the light of truth; the true increase is by adding to, not by substituting one for another." (Watchtower Feb. 1, 1881, Reprints p. 188)

This quote is standpoint of former GB, in 1881. Today GB have different view on same issue. Some future GB (if would be in existence at all) will do the same as this days GB members.  Will change doctrines and proclaim outdated learnings as "old light".   In other words, they will give up from their predecessors, former GB members  Which of these time-varying GB groups has more "spirit" that they be able to claim how "this WTJWorg is god's spirit guided organization"? haha, ...and in what time period what GB group has more "spirit" in governing the Corp-org?  

13 hours ago, Witness said:

The GB use the excuse, ‘Jesus didn’t promise perfect food’. 

BUT Jesus promised "the Holy Spirit", Comforter until He come again. But perhaps WT GB got idea how Jesus was come in 1914 Holy Spirit is not need to operate and guide people at all, or specifically Christians or more specifically FDS aka GB. So, in that line of logic it is normal that FDS aka GB are not inspired because Holy Spirit are out of job from 1914. And by same logic "food can not be perfect"  because source of that "food" is not Spirit but imperfect human. :))))))))) At the end GB not lie about who, what, which "spirit"  guide them and w,w,w not.  

What are you think about this in connection with decline, falling of producing "proper food in proper time". (source; Down with the Tower -ex Jw, YT)

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

When you have people working for you

sorry, i have wrongly supposed that all this bro and sis working for God or Jesus :))))))

13 hours ago, Witness said:

he only endorses what he has built – the Body of Christ.

superb!

13 hours ago, Witness said:

Disfellowshipping is a spiritual “stoning”

excellent compare !   

5 hours ago, Anna said:

They do this full time, so when would you expect them to go to work to earn money for a living?

JTR gives you, Anna, biblical answer :)) on non biblical question, hehehe.

No hard feeling dear Anna, but what to do with such logic that are opposite to main purpose and expectations that JHVH have from the first day when he was threw first human from paradise. Do Work my son, do work. In paradise was the way of living not to do nothing hard, but smiling and giving names to animals, and eating and sleeping. Obviously some people today want to create paradise again. "You do work but i will not work - because you working already"     :))))

11 hours ago, Witness said:

is really twisted

Thanks for your ability to notice, to see, to understand and have good, accurate perception on WT GB manipulation they doing  with the "help" of Bible, Jesus and JHVH. They made one explanation that suites to them for reason of "daily politics theme in regard to so called apostates"  with two confusing verses that belong to so different time events and reasons of why it was told to Israel.

In fact GB put JHVH and Jesus on opposite camps. Jesus said, who see me see father... i am not telling nothing that my father not telling...and similar". But here, for need to give lesson to JW members, WT GB followers, they said how OT words have more power than NT words. Despite the fact how that same JHVH prophesied that he will made New Law in Heart of people not on stone or paper. But no, GB stick with OT "stone heart" and not on NT "spirit heart" that is not bond to written law, regulations, paragraphs, rules ....... from human. 

You point very well on GB discrepancy. I will continue with comments on this part from WT magazine paragraph; .... "Jesus encouraged his followers to love their enemies, but God's Word also says to "hate what is bad." When a person persists in a way of badness after knowing what is right, when the bad becomes so ingrained that it is an inseparable part of his make-up..."

1 )Jesus IS GOD'S WORD :))) so this word BUT have no place in  GB interpretation. 

2) Second, they dare to put themselves as God. God is able to see in deep things of "heart and kidneys" , but here GB said that they know what is with person and made final judgement about "bad is ingrained" in person's heart with no hope to change. This is blasphemy, GB put themselves in Judge Throne and suggest that all average JW member have also the same right and power to analysed other people heart and make own judgement what would be future of that person. Idiotic premise. 

Tragedy and comedy in one     

 

Is this sound like hate speech?

Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.11 
"Apostates “quietly” bring their ideas into the congregation, like criminals who secretly bring things into a country. Apostates use “counterfeit words.” This means that they say things that make their false ideas sound true, like criminals who make false documents look real. They try to get as many people as possible to believe their “deceptive teachings.” Peter also said that they like twisting the Scriptures. They explain Bible verses in the wrong way to make others believe their ideas. (2 Peter 2:1, 3, 13; 3:16) Apostates do not care about us. If we follow them, we will leave the road to everlasting life. 
... The Bible says that apostates are mentally diseased and that they use their teachings to make others think like them. (1 Timothy 6:3, 4) Jehovah is like that good doctor. He clearly tells us to stay away from false teachers. We must always be determined to follow his warning. 

Watchtower 2004 Feb 15 p.28 
"It would be a mistake to think that you need to listen to apostates or to read their writings to refute their arguments. Their twisted poisonous reasoning can cause spiritual harm and can contaminate your faith like rapidly spreading gangrene. (2 Timothy 2:16, 17) Rather, imitate God's response to apostates. Job said of Jehovah: "Before him no apostate will come in." - Job 13:16." 

Watchtower 1993 November 1 p.19 
"True Christians share Jehovah's feelings toward such apostates; they are not curious about apostate ideas. On the contrary, they "feel a loathing" toward those who have made themselves God's enemies, but they leave it to Jehovah to execute vengeance." 

Watchtower 1992 July 15 pp.12-13 Christ Hated Lawlessness-Do You? 
"The obligation to hate lawlessness also applies to all activity by apostates. Our attitude toward apostates should be that of David, who declared: "Do I not hate those who are intensely hating you " 

Watchtower 1961 July 15 p.420 A Time and Place for Everything 
Jesus encouraged his followers to love their enemies, but God's Word also says to "hate what is bad." When a person persists in a way of badness after knowing what is right, when the bad becomes so ingrained that it is an inseparable part of his make-up, then in order to hate what is bad a Christian must hate the person with whom the badness is inseparably linked. Indicating that Jesus did not mean for us to love the hardened enemies of Jehovah, David expressed this God-approved attitude: "Do I not hate those who are intensely hating you, O Jehovah, and do I not feel a loathing for those revolting against you? With a complete hatred I do hate them. They have become to me real enemies."-Matt. 5:44; Amos 5:15; Ps. 139:21, 22. 

Why doesn't the Society translate and provide the Russian Court Transcripts for us?

Legal Department and lawyers which are involved in process have documents. Own and from prosecutor. But have no obligation to put it in public. Whether they have documents (transcripts) it depend, i think, did they ask for transcript, did Russian court have obligation or not to produce transcripts to lawyers. 

But no matter on reality did they have or not documents, JW members are "not authorized, entitled to hear confidential informations"  :))) and will never be!

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

I speak from a worldly perspective.......We are not different to other people - the same as everyone else.  The only difference is that one cannot remain a Witness without Jehovah's spirit.

Apologize if i am little boring in responding to your comments, but as you know already - "When words are many, transgression is not lacking"

I would like to point to one problem that arise in JW Organizational perception and perception from JW member. If JW member want to be true Jesus follower than he need, must to reject "worldly perspective" in purpose to be more close to Jesus personality and imitating his faith and to show "fruits of spirit", and to dress on "new personality". Purpose is in that true Jesus disciple can be different (in positive way) from people who do not want or wish or are not familiar with "godly personality". That is possible as you already wrote with JHVH spirit. 

So, you are confusing yourself and us who reading your thoughts with opposite standpoint, again, - "your worldly perspective" how it is need to deal with people who are lazy or have other kind of problems in JW church AND with your suggestion, request that all true JW member, including yourself, have to show "JHVH spirit".  But is it good, possible to mix "worldly perspective with JHVH spirit" and in the finals be satisfied in own eye, and in eye of other christians how our position before god is very well?   

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

but people expect the JW organization to be

If you think about JW people expectation, here is good to say how all people have some rational and irrational "expectation" about congregation and people inside  and WT organization at all, and on Bible interpretations about present and future promises that was made by GB. :))))

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

With money that other witnesses pay for.....With money that other witnesses pay for ...

Here i would like to say, how is not Natural that some people supporting other people who are health and able to work with own hands and earn money for daily bread. So this WT organizational arrangement (Bethel, missionary, pioneers, some traveling elders) where some people are in position to live on other people's expense is not normal. It is like in Catholic church against which WT talking a lot, but shows similar illness in this matter.

Have a good evening  

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

We are not an American company.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

BUT the other side of the coin is: ...

 

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Any company in the world works this way.   Why should they tolerate ...

:))))))))))))))))))) Dear Aruna you supporting and defending two statement that  are opposite to each other. Hard to understand  . One defending holiness of WT organization but other supporting "worldly" way of how WT dealing with office stuff, personnel, workers on various levels inside the WT Corporation. 

But i agree on your thoughts, how many bro and sis have personal ("hidden", ahahhahaa motives why want to be in Bethel) Some are benevolent and tolerantly, some are naive and some are looking for "status" in JW society. This characteristic proves that JW member are not so much different, better then "worldly" people. As popular song say, "people are the same where ever you go  ..... tralalallaala". 

On 4/21/2017 at 19:20, Shiwiii said:

No one should be banned from worshiping in the manner in which they see fit. 

Hi Shiwiii :). This is very democratic and modern attitude. But I think how things are on other levels. Namely, GB like very much to talk about "bible principles" and many of them are in OT. IN Old Testament The LAW said people have to be stoned and killed if they "worshiping in the manner they see fit."     :))))))))))

So, think that it is count only - who have power and authority in the moment. In one old WT magazine GB shared the same look on the apostates and stoning them if they can, but because we live in our time and political systems that is not possible for GB to put in practice.