Srecko Sostar

The book of Job is full of provocative questions. Also on Quora I saw some asking questions about JW. Many times the person answering (I guess JW) says in the answer that it is not a question, that it should be asked in a different way, that the question is not sincere and similar things.

Jesus could afford the luxury of not answering the Pharisees' questions or silencing them with counter-questions. There is no place for such a strategy here or on Qoura or in other situations, because no JW (or non-JW) is comparable to Jesus.
The answer should not be withheld if one is sure of his answer and can argue it in further discussion and in new questions.

When JW lawyers or JW elders answer questions put to them by the Court, you will never hear them question the judge's sincerity. But you will hear "theocratic strategy."

16 minutes ago, Juan Rivera said:

your neighbor

I have 3 questions: Who is a neighbor according to the JW understanding and are there internal classifications of "neighbors"? Is the ex-JW a neighbor?

5 hours ago, Juan Rivera said:

civic unity

I put this term into the JW Library search engine, but I didn't get any results. That is significant. Apparently there is no official position on this or, on the other hand, WTJWorg does not cultivate the kind of relationship you describe. In fact, you yourself have determined that the sole purpose of "fellowshipping" between JWs and "unbelievers" is to "convert" them. A relationship based on this kind of "unity" grounded on such a motive is truly .... shameful. I have no words to describe my disgust at this way JWs look at their neighbors.

Although the description you gave of the JWs striving to get along well with the "unbelievers" seems positive at first glance, I must add that the general attitude of the WTJWorg and thus the members is reflected collectively in the notion that the "unbelievers" are destined for destruction at Armageddon and that they are "minds darkened by Satan". You cannot expect a correct, healthy human relationship from such a mindset and feeling. This world is labeled as "hostile" to JWs, and this is constantly repeated in your meetings.

And here we see an example of how some say one thing and others another (within WTJWorg).

6 hours ago, Juan Rivera said:

Jesus is instead contrasting leadership in the Kingdom with the way leadership in the state often is, i.e. tyrannical.

Whether an individual JW feels good or bad under the "leadership of JW elders" should be left to the personal judgment of everyone in your congregations. I don't need to deal with that. What I feel I can say is how JW leaders (plus JW lawyers) "represent and testify for God" before courts and other public and government/al authorities and institutions. And that is something terrible to know and it would shake and scandalize many JWs to hear and see how they are deceiving the public. Jesus would probably have something to compare and point out if there are any contrasts.

22 minutes ago, Juan Rivera said:

Your cynical stance used as an argument against Jehovah’s Witnesses is question-begging, because it presupposes that there is no individual or group of persons who are in fact exercising authority for the good of those over whom they have charge.

If it can be called cynicism at all, it is a consequence of the biblical statement that "man rules over man for his evil", Ecclesiastes 8:9. 

Finally, WTJWorg teaches in a similar vein, calling all authority that exists outside the JW Church today as "satanic", and thereby effectively asserting that people outside the JW community are incapable of imitating God in matters of righteousness or mercy and so on. 

Such a claim by GB should mean that the authority in WTJWorg is the only correct one and benefits everyone involved. At the same time, they justify some of their claims and actions with the mantra that they are imperfect and that Jesus did not promise that GB would distribute perfect food.

Well, that's pure cynicism and hypocrisy, not my philosophizing.  

WTJWorg and theologians/scholars of other churches have similar views when interpreting some Bible records.
WTJWorg uses the terminology; initial fulfillment and greater fulfillment when they interprets the spoken words of some biblical characters because they considers them to be prophecies that should refer to our time.

Also WTJWorg has generally abandoned using the type and prototype rule in most interpretations.

More and more they come to the conclusion that "we don't know" becomes a more acceptable explanation than dogmatism. Because the structure of people who are (who remain to be, to stay, as JWs) and who become JW members is also changing. Certainly, this does not mean that they will give up exercising power and influence over members.

If the intention of Jesus is to keep the first followers in suspense/tension of waiting for something that will not actually come/come true in their life, then that would be ugly of him. But their "Armageddon" took place within 50 years of the spoken word.
Because of what happened as announced, none of them then had the need to further explain or clarify the failure of the "prophecy" with the "overlapping generations" nonsensical/absurd thesis.
This argument/fact alone completely demolishes the statements GB has made in the past and is making today.

So we constantly have conflicting statements governing people's lives.

Quote from JWorg web:

What Is the Sign of “the Last Days,” or “End Times”?

The Bible’s answer

 The Bible describes events, conditions, and attitudes that would mark “the conclusion of the [current] system of things,” or “the end of the world.” (Matthew 24:3; King James Version) The Bible calls this time period “the last days” and the “time of the end,” or “end times.”—2 Timothy 3:1; Daniel 8:19; Easy-to-Read Version.

Are we living in “the last days”?

 Yes. World conditions as well as Bible chronology indicate that the last days began in 1914, the year World War I began. To see how world conditions indicate that we are living in the last days, watch the following video:

...........They are convinced that God’s Kingdom will soon take action to rid the world of its problems. ...........

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/last-days-sign-end-times-prophecies/

Qoute from JWorg web:

When will the world end?

 Jesus said: “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matthew 24:36, 42) He added that the timing of the end would be unexpected, “at an hour that you do not think to be it.”—Matthew 24:44.

Even though we cannot know the exact day and hour, Jesus did provide a composite “sign,” or group of events, that would identify the time period leading up to the end of the world. (Matthew 24:3, 7-14) The Bible refers to this period as “the time of the end,” “the end times,” and “the last days.”—Daniel 12:4; God’s Word Bible; 2 Timothy 3:1-5.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/end-of-the-world/

Any longtime member of the JW religion knows that the "Armageddon alarm" has been announced many times in the WTJWorg. From period before 1914, about 1914 and years after, until today. We have the statement of Jesus that no one can know anything about it and that many will be deceived in the expectation and prediction of "the end". Despite this, GB still claims that the "end" will be "soon".
From this example that supports the title theme, we see that the GB members and their assistants do not only contradict each other in their statements, but are in direct conflict with the statements of Jesus.

44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

But GB and JWs doing contrary, they expect it ( "an hour") to come "soon". If Jesus is to be believed, then he will wait so long, long enough, that people (in this case members of the JW religion) stop expecting the end to come. When people stop expecting, then it will be a "sign" for Jesus to come.

GB counts many "signs" as proof that Jesus is coming, and on the other hand, Jesus is waiting for only one "sign", and that is, for people to finally stop "counting signs".

Or do you think otherwise?

What would Adam and Eve look like in WTJWorg literature if Russell and Rutherford were Chinese?

The Bible is full of descriptions of events/deeds that are repeated in various human actions and in all time periods. The Bible is considered a religious literature that should help religious people to know the relationship between themselves and God in which everything should work well if people find answers to questions about how God should be worshipped.

There are always individuals and groups who are convinced that they know the answers to such questions. The JWs and their organization, colloquially called WTJWorg, are at the forefront of this. Throughout their history, they have strongly accused other religions of being false and controlled by Satan. For some time now, the Organization has loosened its grip on false religion, but tightened it on secular authorities (as seen in the famous video of them hiding in a basement as they are attacked by military and police forces).
Also, more and more their subject/target are ex-members whom they call "mentally ill". At the same time, they reinforce warnings not to read and watch content that "speaks negatively" about JWs and the Organization.
They warn members/followers to shun anyone who has stopped being a member of JW Church.

WT JWorg is undergoing major internal changes (administrative and hierarchical have been arranged for some time) which again, for who knows how many times, are changing theological/doctrinal settings and theses, and through that also some "technical-theocratic" practices.
They emphasize more and more, to the point of exaggeration, that GBs are"imperfect and fallible". That GB does "not want to be dogmatic". That GB "does not know" some (many) things, but how should all this not be an obstacle for followers to trust their human leaders without limit.

When such "responsible and serious" people who are in leading positions in the "only one true religion" start saying that they "don't know" this or that, then it is another in a series of alarms that the members should be able to perceive. Perhaps one of the reasons for this could be these biblical quotes:

 25 So I gave them other statutes that were not good and laws through which they could not live; 26 I defiled them through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn—that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the Lord.’  

If YHVH is God who does not change, is there any reason for Him not to repeat His proven method with GB? If YHVH gave bad laws and instructions to his people in the past, on purpose, can anyone today in the JW Organization deny that this has not been happening for a long time with the WTJWorg? God sees better than ex-JWs know and see? If imperfect current and former members see the theological manipulations and rigging of the GB, then YHVH sees even better what remains hidden from human eyes. 

Of course, there's always the possibility that this is all a error idea, but does it really matter? I don't know, maybe you don't either. That is all we know.  

“When your own thoughts are forbidden, when your questions are not allowed and our doubts are punished, when contacts with friendships outside of the organization are censored, we are being abused, for the ends never justify the means. When our heart aches knowing we have made friendships and secret attachments that will be forever forbidden if we leave, we are in danger. When we consider staying in a group because we cannot bear the loss, disappointment and sorrow our leaving will cause for ourselves and those we have come to love, we are in a cult… If there is any lesson to be learned it is that an ideal can never be brought about by fear, abuse, and the threat of retribution. When family and friends are used as a weapon in order to force us to stay in an organization, something has gone terribly wrong.”

― Deborah Layton, Seductive Poison: A Jonestown Survivor's Story of Life and Death in the Peoples Temple

The Jewish religion was/is more permanent in time (duration) and without the appearance of "new lights". Its founder was YHVH. Jesus was a Jew. And as such he was supposed to continue the existing religion of "his fathers". He did not renounce his Jewish faith, he just wanted to cleanse it of the accumulated corruption.

WTJWorg has different religious roots in which it wanted to make changes by bringing religious beliefs closer to what they believed to be "truth" in the OT and NT. A century and a little more of the existence of that organization has shown the failure of the initial idea.

Dramatic changes that accompanied this organization throughout its history became more and more frequent. Today, they culminate in almost daily changes in doctrines and instructions and ways of acting.
It is clearly visible that they are getting more and more entangled in the web they have woven themselves. Maybe some new "Messiah" needs to come to shake the 8 million believers in their sleepiness.

7 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

This old light new light doctrines changing has become like a strobe light causing seizures, is the hs working while they are having a seizure or not?

The Jewish religion was/is more permanent in time (duration) and without the appearance of "new lights". Its founder was YHVH. Jesus was a Jew. And as such he was supposed to continue the existing religion of "his fathers". He did not renounce his Jewish faith, he just wanted to cleanse it of the accumulated corruption.

WTJWorg has different religious roots in which it wanted to make changes by bringing religious beliefs closer to what they believed to be "truth" in the OT and NT. A century and a little more of the existence of that organization has shown the failure of the initial idea.

Dramatic changes that accompanied this organization throughout its history became more and more frequent. Today, they culminate in almost daily changes in doctrines and instructions and ways of acting.
It is clearly visible that they are getting more and more entangled in the web they have woven themselves. Maybe some new "Messiah" needs to come to shake the 8 million believers in their sleepiness.

They say: "The truth always remains the truth".
Yes, maybe somewhere else. But many of the so-called "truths" in WTJWorg are unnecessary, meaningless and harmful to the health of the followers.

They say: "The truth always remains the truth".
Yes, maybe somewhere else. But many of the so-called "truths" in WTJWorg are unnecessary, meaningless and harmful to the health of the followers.

4 hours ago, Pudgy said:

flying cars

I think it is not problematic to realize our imagination and desires about such technology. The problem arises when drivers behave idiotically. Imagine when the chaos from the road continues in the air and on land.

GB member ("deposition"), statement: ..JHVH will not permit us to see some things..

So what are the things you saw, but you changed them later? And who actually showed them to you?

At the 2023 Annual Meeting, Geoffrey Jackson delivers a speech. A few sentences speak significantly about the state of this Organization. The inevitable changes in interpretation lead to the follower no longer being sure when what change has occurred and what to believe as it becomes difficult to keep track of what the "current Truth" is.

GJ talks about the new interpretation and wonders if we believe this explanation now or if it is what we believed before or vice versa, at the same time showing a confused expression in a joking tone. Of course, the audience laughs and applauds the humorous situation and presentation of the speaker. And nothing is to be applauded or laughed at. On the contrary.

He continues with a sentence where he says, "Be careful what you say to others." Because really, what interpretation should JW present in public!?

And one more thing that was already written somewhere in your literature about dogmatism. Now GJ repeats it and says: "We should not be dogmatic (about the new interpretation), but we hope that (this new teaching, explanation) will be the case (with the righteous and the unrighteous, judgment, Armageddon etc.).

The latest words often uttered by GB and other WTJWorg representatives is "We don't know".

"New Light" changes this JW religion to an community of agnostics.

Etymology

Noun

from Greek agnōstos "unknown," from a- "not" and gnōstos "known"

Each generation of GB, individually and collectively, was, they claim, "led by HS". And yet, they constantly change their interpretations with unacceptable, illogical and nonsensical explanations. They never feel the obligation or the need to apologize and beg for forgiveness.

Who is blind here? Leaders? And/or followers?

In WTJorg, some say one thing, and some say something completely different. So who should be trusted? "Food at the proper time" that confuses, if you can see the difference. But GJ testimony is not on the "spiritual table", because there are reasons for it.

GB in 2015:

GB in 2023:

9. What quality is needed to understand Bible prophecy? Explain.

⁹ Be humble. Jehovah promises to help the humble. (Jas. 4:6) So we need to pray for His help to understand Bible prophecy. We must also acknowledge that we need the help of the channel he is using to give us our spiritual food at the proper time. (Luke 12:42) Jehovah is a God of order, so it makes sense that he would use just one channel to help us understand the truths contained in his Word.—1 Cor. 14:33; Eph. 4:4-6.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-study-august-2023/Learn-From-Bible-Prophecy/

Article - War in Jehovah's Witnesses: children against parents in the first trial of a religion against its dissidents

https://www.epe.es/es/espana/20221113/guerra-testigos-jehova-hijos-padres-78441708

Video about subject:

I will use a part of the text from the MA dissertation entitled "How have the Jehovah's Witnesses' adapted child safeguarding practices and guidance to local circumstances in the United States of America, England and Australia?" This text examines the "CHILD SAFEGUARDING POLICY OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES IN THE UNITED KINGDOM AND THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND" -  https://www.jw.org/en/legal/global-information-brochures/packet-jw-scripturally-based-position-child-protection/

3.4.1 Changes in practice due to English legal pressure:
Evidence of the WatchTower organisation adapting its child safeguarding practices due to local legal requirements can be seen in the prosecution of child sexually abusive elders. This can be seen in the case of Karen Morgan, who was abused by her uncle Mark Sewell, who was an elder, he was sentenced to 14 years by Judge Richard Twomlow at the Merthyr Crown Court for eight sexual abuse offences, including one of rape between 1987 and 1995. Morgan’s criticism of WatchTower sheds light on where she had felt that her case of child sexual abuse was mishandled:
Those group of elders sat me down as a child in front of a guy who had been abusing me for years and expected me to talk about it in front of him and hear him
call me a liar. That has probably had the most effect on the rest of my life. What Mark did to me I have had to try and deal with but I have also had to try and deal with how the whole thing was handled and it's that part of this that I want answers for. I blame them for what happened to me because no-one dealt with it
(BBC, 3 July 2014).
1 See appendix 1.
!15
1840775
 

This evidences a legal issue, particularly as WatchTower had fallen short of the Sexual Offences Act as the elders required Karen to confront her abuser.
James T. Richardson would agree with my hypothesis that religious movements such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ are capable of theocratic adaptation to local legal pressures as he asserts that, all NRMs have to learn to exist within the laws, of the societies within which they exist. This means that the organization structure, the ways they raise and spend funds, and other concerns, even including theological developments’ (2012, p.49).
 

Evidence of this can be seen in WatchTower’s magazine which explores their doctrinal practice of requiring victims of abuse to confront their abusers to report an allegation, What if the sufferer decides that he wants to make an accusation? Then the two elders can advise him that, in line with the principle at Matthew 18:15, he should personally approach the accused about the matter (WatchTower, 1995, p.28).2 WatchTower can be seen to have adapted to the local legal pressures of English law and as a result, they have adjusted their theocratic child safeguarding practices by no longer requiring victims of abuse to confront their abusers. This adaptation to the law can be seen in point 9 of The Jehovah’s Witness scripturally based position on child protection3 policy
document which states that, ‘elders never require victims of child abuse to present their accusation in the presence of the alleged abuser’ thus confirming the test of my hypothesis.

Quote from JWweb:

9. Elders never require victims of child abuse to present their accusation in the presence of the alleged abuser. However, victims who are now adults may do so, if they wish. In addition, victims can be accompanied by a confidant of either gender for moral support when presenting their accusation to the elders. If a victim prefers, the accusation can be submitted in the form of a written statement. -  https://www.jw.org/en/legal/global-information-brochures/packet-jw-scripturally-based-position-child-protection/

Another change is recognizable here. The presence of a "third person" who is there while the injured party is testifying to the elders. So, another change concerning the process in JC. And a concession before the Law that changes the current JW practice, but only in these cases.

Next, I will put up a video with Gary Breaux, GB Helper, who adamantly claims that WTJWorg will never give up "biblical principles" specifically regarding the "2 witness rule".

Although, as you will see, there are different "biblical principles", this does not change the clear picture of the changeable position of GB and their Legal Department and the lawyers who worked to adapt WTJWorg to the legal regulations in some countries.
On the one hand, we have strong public statements by representatives of the Corporation telling the JW membership and even the non-JW public that "biblical principles" are inviolable and will be adhered to "at all costs", and on the other hand, WTJWorg is changing its "doctrinal policy" and rejects the "biblical principles" of Matthew 18, which were spoken by Jesus. The same Jesus who is said to have unlimited and complete trust in GB.

What do you call people who abandon their "beliefs"? Perhaps, "weak in faith", "inconstant", "apostates"? Or we will call them with some mild description, as they are only "imperfect" people after all.

There is a JW video that, in one sequence, shows a conversation between two JWs. One is young and the other is older. And that older JW describes how in the past (1940s) the brothers were attacked by the crowd in the USA because they distributed pamphlets in which JWs exposed and condemned the hypocrisy of local priests. 

When some of the "worldly" people or ex-JWs point out the hypocrisy of WTJWorg and its representatives why do the JWs accuse them of telling lies?

Jehovah's Witnesses are harmed not by former members, but by current members.

7 hours ago, Errikos Tsiamis said:

Furthermore, Jesus promised the coming of the Holy Spirit, who would guide his followers in their understanding and interpretation of God's truth. As a result of this belief, some argue that there is no need to make additional additions to the scriptures as they currently exist. They see the written word as sacred and complete, with a comprehensive message that doesn't require further augmentations. Deuteronomy 4:2.

This perspective holds that the guidance of God's spirit, which directed the authors of scripture in the past, is still available today. It is important to emphasize that, within this belief system, there is a distinction between inspiration and behavior. While the authors of scripture may have been divinely inspired, it is acknowledged that human beings, including those who receive such guidance, are capable of flawed behavior. 

If it is about Jesus' promise that his followers will have support and guidance from the HS, then it should be made clear whether the theology of WTJWorg differentiates between followers. In terms of whether only GB has special treatment from HS and is the only one capable of distinguishing things, or does Jesus' promise apply to every disciple.

Because the Scriptures say that there is no difference between young and old disciples, nor between male and female disciples.

Another thing that seems even contradictory is the statement; there is a distinction between inspiration and behavior. 

The Scriptures speak about the gifts of the spirit, but also about the fruits of the spirit that cause people to become good, righteous, show love for their neighbor, express peace and joy, and so on. So, the action of the spirit, regardless of whether it is "inspiration" or "guidance", has effects on human behavior.

The Bible mentions that even a donkey changes its behavior when the spirit prompts it to act, so I don't understand why it shouldn't be the same for humans.

However, since this is a about dogma related to GB, then it becomes clearer why it is good to emphasize "this part of the truth", as it is still about people who cannot escape the natural tendency to make mistakes when making their interpretations.

The problem surrounding the nature of the inspiration of the first Christians.

There is a claim that the OT and NT writings are the inspired Word of God because the people who wrote them were inspired to write them. Is that the only moment when these individuals, and there are few writers, were inspired?

Then the question follows; Were these people inspired by HS in their everyday life? When they were doing everyday life things like; worked at some job, built a house, went on a trip, educated children, talked with neighbors, talked with strangers, dug a well and planted wheat, etc ... when they had "assembly meetings" and have to solve "theocratic" matters due to newly emerging needs or problems?

Hardly anyone today will claim that the "inspiration" of HS appeared so widely. It means that all these people were beyond the reach of HS inspiration for a large part of their lives. The exception is only a short moment when they wrote or spoke God's Word. This means that outside of this very narrow and short-term action of HS, they were ordinary and sinful people, imperfect.

People who wrote "inspired writings" could also misinterpret and apply what was written at another point in their lives. For example the apostle Peter or Paul, whoever, writes under inspiration, and tomorrow he is no longer inspired and misinterprets an inspired record that he may have written himself or his fellow Christian wrote. This is a reality and a high probability. Well, they themselves wrote about some of their wrong assumptions and decisions and teachings.

So how will WTJWorg restore the original 1st century Christianity, which was in error from the very beginning? How will today's "uninspired" believers aka GB make better decisions than their 1st century predecessors?

Would the WTJWorg thesis of "progressive truth" also apply to 1st century Christianity? It should, because they showed it in the 1st Century standing with their statements, teachings and actions. For example, at that time they had not yet introduced the counting of hours spent in house-to-house preaching. It took almost 2000 years for that light to shine in WTJWorg. Now a partial abandonment of that idea (except for exceptions, pioneers etc.) is an approach to primitive Christianity. But the question is whose practice is correct? Those in the 1st century who have not yet developed the "new light" or those today who have returned to the "darkness" of the past?