Srecko Sostar
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Posts posted by Srecko Sostar
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50 minutes ago, WalterPrescott said:
G-d controls everything in the universe. <><
God’s sovereignty means that God is in charge of everything that happens in His universe. In Isaiah 45:6, God says, “There is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other.”
I don't understand what kind of control you attribute to God. Does he control how many angels Satan will draw to his side? If God controls this kind of activity then it is questionable whether all angels have the freedom to accept or reject Satan as their leader instead of God.
It's the same with people. Does God control how many people will reject God and how many will accept Him. You are talking about an absurd idea, about a God who controls ... something or everything, sometimes or always??
Does God cares about this kind of control you put in? If this were important to him, then he would not be tired of WTJWorg's theological explanation, which actually says that God "does not control" the universe and people, because he has in mind the so-called "universal issue".The theology of "universal issue" devalues the idea of a God who controls everything. Or is this some kind of controlled chaos here on earth and in all universe?
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2 minutes ago, JW Insider said:
this particular spelling of "G-d"
I noticed this specificity, but only for reasons of confusion. Because why would anyone even use this form ("G-d") when they can write "o" instead "-". First what came to my mind was, is he some sort of Mason?
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4 minutes ago, WalterPrescott said:
Do, all humans go to heaven?
Maybe all those who believe in it are going to heaven.
Speaking of heaven, I would say this too. The concept of the Catholic faith is that they hope to go / continue to live in heaven when they die on earth, for example.
At JWs, another situation has occurred, which is unfavorable at its core. Namely, JWs hopes that some of them will go to heaven, upon death here on earth. So it is similar to the Catholic belief, they die on earth and continue to live in heaven (only since 1914/1919 this is possible, of course according to WTJWorg).Eh now, these other JWs who hope for eternal life on earth through the survival of Armageddon or through the resurrection are at a disadvantage. Because, such a change should have happened several times in these 140 years of WTS existence. And each time their faith and hope failed. And many died without the possibility of both combinations of gaining a “better” life.
So, Catholics believe and hope and it comes true to them at death. JWs believe and hope, but this is by no means achieved now or later, but is constantly delayed through various "new lights" and never come true. -
15 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:
I thought the Charity Commision here in UK were going to end the 'charity status' of the JW Org because of the Child Sexual Abuse within the Org and because of the GB's obstanance and refusal to change their man made rules. Pity the CC didn't follow through on the plan.
The courts of several countries have ruled differently on this matter.
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1 hour ago, WalterPrescott said:
I thought the topic was about The state subsidy is denied to WTJWorg in Norway.
Correct, and ... "shunning practice" stands between state money and WTJWorg pocket.
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quote from document:
Our assessment of the complaint
The denomination writes in section 42 of the complaint that members who withdraw from the denomination are respected for their decision, and it is up to each individual who is affiliated with the congregation to use their personal religious conscience to decide whether they want to limit or completely avoid contact with that person.
As the State Administrator has pointed out in the decision of 27.01.2022, the religious community, in «Organized to do Jehovah's will” page 153, writes on the other hand that “… if a Christian person chooses to withdraw, a brief notice is given to the congregation which reads: ‘[The person's name] is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses.’ Such a person is treated in the same way as someone who is excluded.” We know that exclusion means that you should not have contact with or associate with the person in question. The religious community here encourages members to avoid contact with the excluded.
In this context, we will also refer to chapter 12 in the book "Shepherd the Flock of God", which deals with typical cases that may lead to the body of elders appointing a judicial committee. Point 17 deals with "shameless behaviour" and points out that unnecessary contact with the excluded or those who have withdrawn can be grounds for appointing a judicial committee. If the Body of Elders concludes that a judicial committee will not be appointed, it may nevertheless have consequences for whether the member is qualified to receive privileges in the congregation. The religious community shows here that defying the call to avoid the excluded can have consequences for members.
The allegations that only the members themselves decide who they want to have contact with do not agree with the religious community's own rules. The religious community in reality has a ban on contact with excluded members.
Page 2/3
The consequences of opting out of the religious community may therefore be to lose contact with family and social networks. For the State Administrator, this scheme appears as a form of sanction imposed on society by those who opt out.
We understand that the individual person can decide for themselves how much contact they want to have with people who no longer share the same values as themselves. However, the contact is not something the religious community can sanction without hindering the right to free withdrawal according to ECHR art. 9. Article 9 of the ECHR precisely protects the right to change one's religion or belief.
The Religious Communities Act shall, among other things, ensure that the right to free registration is safeguarded for the members of registered religious communities. We therefore maintain our assessment that the practice entails a breach of the Religious Communities Act § 2.
Furthermore, the religious community states that there is no violation of the Religious Communities Act § 6. In sections 86-87 of the complaint, the religious community points out that the children who are baptized are mature enough to understand the consequences of being a Jehovah's Witness, including that they are aware that Baptism means that you must follow certain rules and that you can be expelled if you break the rules and do not regret it.
In addition, we would like to note that section 6 of the Religious Communities Act is intended to protect all children, even those who are considered by the religious community to be mature teenagers.
In sections 88-89, society states that there can be no violation of § 6 if the State Administrator cannot refer to a specific incident where a child has been excluded and has been harmed by this. Furthermore, the religious community points out that today only one person under the age of 18 is excluded.
Regardless of how many children are excluded from the religious community today, it is problematic that the religious community has a scheme where it is possible to exclude children. The threat of being ostracized and losing contact with family and friends appears to the State Administrator to be serious for a child. As we have referred to in the decision of 27.01.2022, the scheme is in our assessment negative social control.
In section 98, the religious community points out that it is up to the individual to decide whether they want to have contact with an excluded child. To this end, we will show our assessment above, which shows that the religious community has rules that in reality prohibit just such contact.
In section 110, the denomination states that unbaptized minor publishers are in no way socially isolated. However, as we pointed out in the resolution of 27.01.2022, the denomination writes this in “Organized to Do Jehovah's Will,” pp. 154-155:
“If an unbaptized offender does not repent after two elders have met with him and tried to help him, it is necessary to inform the congregation. A brief statement is made that reads: ‘[The person's name] is no longer recognized as an unbaptized publisher.’ The congregation will then regard the transgressor as a worldly person. Even if he is not excluded, Christians will be careful to associate with him. (1 Corinthians 15:33) The congregation will not accept any field service reports from him."
We understand the passage as the child being socially isolated from the congregation, and that this is done in response to the child's behaviour. We therefore maintain our assessment that this treatment is also regarded as negative social control on the part of the religious community and that the treatment violates the child's rights, cf. the Religious Society Act § 6.
Page 2/4
With regard to the allegations that the decision of 27.01.2022 violates the Constitution §§ 16 and 101, and ECHR art. 9 and 11, we would like to point out that the decision applies to the religious community's requirements for subsidy funds, and not whether the religious community should be able to operate as a religious community in Norway, nor does it limit how the religious community should be able to practice its religion. The decision also does not include or restrict the religious community's freedom of assembly. The Religious Communities Act is a subsidy law, where the state has set certain conditions for religious communities to be able to receive public financial support. The state is free to choose how one wants to support religious communities and has no positive obligations under ECHR art. 9 in the case of government grants. We would also like to remind you that the ECHR has stated that access to financial support does not affect the individual's right to express their religion.
The rules in the Religious Communities Act apply to all registered religious communities in Norway.
Regarding the allegations about the State Administrator's case processing in section 146 of the complaint, we will refer to the letter dated 15.09.2021 with notification of the investigation case and the letter dated 25.10.2021 with answers to the religious community's questions about the prior notice. We announced that we were initiating an investigation on the basis of an inquiry from the Ministry of Children and Family Affairs. The inquiry contained the warnings from Furuli and the statement of Jehovah's Witnesses. In a letter dated 15.09.2021, we explained which inquiries, statements and notices were the background for the investigation case, and which provisions in the Religious Communities Act authorized our right to initiate an investigation case, and which provisions we investigated if the religious community had violated based on the mentioned inquiries, statements and notices. We were also clear that we did not instruct the religious community to answer further questions in this round as the religious community had already commented on several occasions on precisely these inquiries and warnings. The religious community nevertheless had the opportunity to express themselves and chose to do so in a letter dated 19.11.2021. This statement also forms the basis for our decision of 27.01.2022. We will maintain that we have given prior notice in accordance with the Public Administration Act § 16 and that the case was well enough informed before a decision was made, cf. the Public Administration Act § 17.
After a review of the complaint, the State Administrator cannot see that new and significant information has been added to the case. We uphold the decision.
The case is sent to the Ministry of Children and Family Affairs for a final decision.
A copy of the case documents and other relevant attachments is included with the complaint.
36 minutes ago, WalterPrescott said:Norway believes in rehabilitation more than punishment.
It sounds like a Christian theology in which Jesus calls people to accept God’s grace.
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21 minutes ago, WalterPrescott said:
Query about "Pocket Man" Erik Anderson of Norway, Pope Francis Jorge Mario Bergoglio, 51 Norwegian politicians that were arrested for pedophilia of which some were lawyers and high profile individuals along with the conversion of Norway to eastern orthodox religion influenced by Russia to get a sense, of conscience or hypocrisy by that government.
Norway believes in rehabilitation more than punishment. I have no doubt they welcome pedophiles in their orthodox religion, but have those individuals shown remorse and are they repentant. In the Org, simply saying it's a conscious decision is not enough to satisfy the requirements set in the bible.
Anyone claiming such a false assertion is a hypocrite.
Since this is about a JW practice called "shunning", maybe you have something to say about it?
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7 hours ago, WalterPrescott said:
There should be standards set according to the bible, and barriers should be set in place for those that do not conform to those bible standards. Complicity is not a recommendation a true believer should ever make.
That’s why GB decided in one of his past decisions to have JWs in Mexico give up their “biblical principles and standards” in order to retain material ownership. Matter of Conscience or Hypocrisy?
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9 hours ago, WalterPrescott said:
This is concerning when the governments subject their laws to the bylaws of religion. That combination is never a good idea, since Jesus kept that combination separate. This is a good case for the U.N. to investigate as a violation of civil duties by a religion to keep a healthy Christian community.
Should the Org appeal the decision? Yes, in principle. Perhaps the Norway government would think differently if it was sanctioned by democratic nations for not allowing religious institutions to set their own standards of Christian conduct.
https://bitterwinter.org/norway-decision-against-the-jehovahs-witnesses/
M. Introvigne is not one of those who I would consider as objective critics and who would impress me with his opinion. When he says, I quote: "They are simply excluded from the family's religious activities, but otherwise the normal family relationships, including the marital relationship between husband and wife, continue", he repeats the mantra from the WT publication, which obscures the real state of life of such spiritually separated families.
I have already stated in another topic that three children suffered severe emotional suffering because the mother under the influence of the elders prevented the children from keeping up with the excluded father, who no longer lived with them in the same household. The elders called the children to account when they found out about "illegal" contacts, in several occasions. The youngest child had suicidal thoughts, self-harm and was in fact completely mentally incapable of life. If the father has left his family this is enough for a negative effect on the children, and if the elders and religion forbid them to associate with the father, then the church leaders take responsibility for everything after that.
Another example is one “awakened JW” whom his wife managed to “blackmail” to break her “rebellious spirit”. Now that man is PIMO (physically inside mentally outside). If a wife has to respect her husband within the marital union, why does one JW sister blackmail her husband into not becoming an “apostate”? Is she doing it (blackmail) under the influence of her conscience or is she under the influence of the “cult” of religion?
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42 minutes ago, JW Insider said:
I really find it hard to imagine that other religions in Denmark (or possibly Norway) take their religious teachings so seriously.
If I'm not mistaken there are several other religious communities that are very exclusive and strict as JWs when it comes to "sinful members" whether it is morally unacceptable behavior of a member or "dissidents" and "rebels" who oppose doctrines. They strongly ignore their former members.
There is another aspect of “seriousness” that concerns believers of other religions. There are members who are very moral and in this respect can be compared to any JW in terms of morals and honesty. In this way, they are a kind of "competition" to WTJWorg because they prove that their alleged affiliation with "Babylon" (and to the World) does not reflect badly on their moral behavior.
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quote from document:
The content of the complaint
In the complaint, it is mainly stated that the religious community does not violate the Religious Communities Act §§ 2 and 6, and that the State Administrator's decision is incorrect. It is also stated that the decision violates sections 16 and 101 of the Constitution and Articles 9 and 11 of the ECHR.
The religious community writes in the complaint that they do not prevent anyone from opting out and that their exclusionary practice is protected under ECHR art. 9. They also write that children in practice are not excluded, and that the State Administrator has in any case not proved that the exclusion harms the children.
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quote from document:
The reasons for the decision
The Religious Society Act sets several conditions for being able to receive state support. In our investigations, we uncovered several violations of the Religious Communities Act.
1.
Right to free withdrawal according to the Religious Communities Act § 2 Persons who voluntarily leave the faith community shall be treated in the same way as excluded members. This means that remaining members, family and friends, will not have contact with the excluded. The preparatory work for the Religious Communities Act § 2 points out that the right to freedom of religion presupposes that withdrawal can take place unconditionally and without obstacles on the part of the religious or philosophical community. By having rules for how the members should relate to excluded members, we found that the religious community prevents withdrawal. We regard the practice as a violation of the Religious Communities Act § 2
2.
Baptized minors may be excluded The exclusionary practice applies not only to adults, but also to baptized minors. This means that children can be excluded if they break the rules of the religious community. We have considered this practice to be a negative social control, and that it therefore violates children's rights. The religious Society itself describes the practice as a "strong form of correction". We consider this a violation of the Religious Communities Act § 6.
3.
Minor members may be exposed to social isolation For other children in the congregation who have not yet been baptized but who are considered “unbaptized publishers,” there is a similar practice of exclusion. If unbaptized publishers violate community rules, they should be deprived of the status of publisher and congregation members should avoid contact with them. We have considered this treatment as negative social control, and in violation of the child's rights. We also regard this as a violation of the Religious Communities Act § 6.
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1 hour ago, Pudgy said:
The point I was trying to make, is there’s no sense about worrying or even being concerned in the slightest extent, about things you have absolutely no control over.
The video I am posting shows how we might be able to have control over some events that are a threat to our health and lives. “Armageddon” is out of our control, and even if some JWs are the most exemplary specimens of their kind, they still have no guarantee of survival or resurrection.
"Pay attention" video.
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3 hours ago, Pudgy said:
it reminds me of the story of the grasshopper and the ant, what you may have heard before.
I haven't heard this version. :)) But this version reminds me of stories in assembly lectures and behind-the-scenes stories many decades ago. The story goes that we will be amazed to see among the survivors of Armageddon in the “New World” those we didn’t think would be there, and we won’t see those we were sure would be in NW.
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9 hours ago, Arauna said:
I would say that Satan attacks true worshippers more than those who are already on his side.
How many millions of Ukrainians are currently being attacked by Satan?
How many millions of JWs are currently being attacked by Satan?
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6 hours ago, Thinking said:
Romans 8:22
For we know that THE WHOLE OF CREATION has been groaning TOGETHER in the pains of childbirth until now.
Thank you. Good confirmation of my thinking. If the writer of these words established this claim about 2,000 years ago, then he certainly covered a period that goes back to his life, that is, before him, and includes many generations that lived before he was born. The constant I wrote about exists.
The Apostle Paul, what did he mean by "whole of creation"? Animals, plants, human? Worshipers of true and false gods? JW and ex-JW? Etc.
Those who say that nothing has changed in the world have pretty good arguments. What has changed within WTJWorg since it existed? Well, a lot and nothing. Why nothing? Because GB continues to produce inaccurate doctrines as in Russell’s beginnings. A constant that will non-stop follow you as long as you exist as an organization.
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6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:
In addition, God forbade the killing of Job. So what kind of concept is this that applies to all people from Job to the present day?
1 hour ago, Arauna said:The concept that we all can be tested by satan and must prove our loyalty to god under difficult circumstances - not only at a time when everything is going well with us.
If we take into account the various events described in the Bible, then we come to the conclusion that "faithfulness to God" is proved by enduring the terrible circumstances of life, but also by giving life, as a sort of sacrifice to God, while adhering to the principles. There are also fewer examples in which God in a supernatural way saves the lives of believers from the hands of evildoers. They mostly die in hope.
I wanted to say that the concept applied to Job differs greatly when it comes to the majority of humanity, whether they are worshipers of the “true God” or not.
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13 hours ago, Arauna said:
When I was baptized, I recall I was baptized in the name of all three - and we use the names of all three. You seem to only use Yeshua.
Don’t get mad, but that was the practice of WTS in prehistory. :))
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5 minutes ago, Arauna said:
He did give satan "permission" to test Job..... read the bible section again..... .
Thanks for the reminder. Their conversation was a kind of bet, and it was less about “allowing” in the concept of ideology we discuss. Furthermore, does this one kind of “agreement” between god and devil mean that it applies to all people after Job? In addition, God forbade the killing of Job. So what kind of concept is this that applies to all people from Job to the present day?
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10 minutes ago, Arauna said:
If the world loves you, you are doing something wrong.
One would think that all or almost all the people around us who are not JWs are liars, fornicators, thieves, etc. How wrong it is to look at it that way.
11 minutes ago, Arauna said:During Armageddon we will get full protection.
WTJWorg publications have different statements as far as I know. The last thing I read about it is that God will provide collective but not individual protection in Armageddon. Whatever that means. :)))
13 minutes ago, Arauna said:I often think of a young sister who got involved with her boss. She later committed suicide. Her mother , who was sickly before this, was in and out of institutions (nervous breakdown)... she was such a lovely person but could not handle this.
Better a living dog than a dead lion, the Bible says. If we stick to that, then the affair with the boss is not the end of the world, but it is the beginning of condemnation from the JW community. What has the JW community done to prevent suicide from happening? By rejecting and excluding such a sister (if it happened) from the family and the congregation, it contributed to this act of suicide and illness of her mother. How much "the burden on the conscience" is in those who contributed to this outcome?
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5 hours ago, Thinking said:
I don’t understand at times why some cannot see that it happens…perhaps because they cannot imagine that Jehovah would allow such things amongst his people…yet that in itself means they do not understand how Jehovah works..what he allows..and why….and it has ALWAYS happened amongst his people…because we are not yet under his full blessings and care.
5 hours ago, Thinking said:…they also cannot do what Jehovah has a achieved with this imperfect people assembled before him…and it’s even going to take Jesus a thousand years to get it all right…not because of his lack of power…but because how degraded we as humans have become.
5 hours ago, Thinking said:Even his people at this time have become more degraded than fifty years ago….
I think we should be far more careful with the ideology behind the phrase “god allows”. In fact, I’m not sure the phrase “God allowed or allows” is found anywhere in the Bible text.
If we deal with the explanation of an event and say "God allowed it", then we must know which events "God did not allow" to happen. How will we know when the permission or non-permission happened and why? We can only find the answer in our interpretation and our ideology.So there is no real or correct answer, because the answer does not come from God but from man. If one claims that something is “God’s will” then such an individual puts himself in the place of God, and then it is idolatry.
You write about degradation. On the one hand, you are assessing the general degradation of humanity, and on the other hand, you are talking about the degradation of the WTJWorg organization itself and its members. Of course, this is a subjective and emotional statement.
Humanity is no better or worse than in past centuries. The scenography has changed and other global changes have taken place, but the nature of man is constant. People love each other and people hate each other. Of course, my assessment is also insufficient, because it is based on personal circumstances and the conditions in which I live.If you personally notice the degradation within JW membership then we may wonder to what “new light” JWs have been exposed to over the past 50 years? Does degradation depend and arise on the type of theology and doctrine you are exposed to or is it due to “external factors”?
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1 hour ago, Arauna said:
You just don't get it do you?
Sometimes we (people) understand the same things differently. And sometimes we (individually or collectively) come to different conclusion about own previous statement/view.
In WTJWorg theology, this happens periodically. "Generation doctrine" is one of such things.
"Get it", it’s not something only I need to worry about
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6 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:
more negitive postings ,glad you opinion has no weight and therefore is worthless
I see no reason for you to comment this way. The moderator of this topic uploaded an article authored by someone else.
You say this is his opinion. So why should anyone be "accused" or "underestimated" of such an opinion?
We can classify the requested changes in the domain of "human rights" or "improvement of living conditions". WTJWorg considers these three points to be a purely religious / doctrinal issue. Nowadays, these three things go beyond the dogmatic framework of one religious community. Since the status of WTJWorg, in a particular social order, depends on the laws of each state, then these three issues cease to be the exclusive right to a specific biblical interpretation of a religious group, but become a matter of state legislation that should be able to guarantee its citizens individual "human rights".-the right to protection and safety of children
-the right to health and medical care
-the right not to be discriminated against because of different religious beliefs
Is Point “A” REALLY point “A”?
in Topics
Posted
If someone has free will to decide, then God has no control over him. If God has no control over only one person then God does not control the whole universe.
If that one or hundred persons decides to cut down the whole forest in the Amazon, then God cannot control that process, because that process is taking place before our eyes. If someone decides to travel to Mars and leave tons of waste from Earth there, how will God control it?