Srecko Sostar

42 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Even Franz who wrote the book Crisis of conscience…stated clearly on a utube interview he did not think JWs had any more of a problem with this than  any other faith.

This is indeed a comforting statement (made by so called apostate) for many JW members. Too bad it won’t be published in WTJWorg magazines.

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

According to worldly standards, not.  BUT, most of these people have had a life-long career in serving only Jehovah - only focused on the spiritual things and the things above.  It is very hard to remain a hard working servant of Jehovah, especially if it lasts for about 60 years or more.  There are many disappointments that one has to overcome, going to foreign countries, and then later in life go to Bethal, and then when one has done menial jobs in bethal - then move on to some key functions. 

I guess this kind of description of someone’s “career rise” is quite acceptable by “general standards” in the world we live in. I don't even see anything unethical in that.

But what does all this have to do with "anointing with the spirit"?

15 hours ago, Thinking said:

…how do we know who’s of the annoited?

This question is completely in place. I believe that almost every JW will agree with the conclusion that it is not possible to know who is a member of 144,000 and who is not. From such a conclusion emerges another - No one can know and claim who is a member of the FDS class.
If the first claim (who is the anointed one) cannot be proven then the second (who is the FDS) can be proved even less.

Regarding self-proclamation or confirmation of self-proclamation from members of others who have also self-proclaimed themselves to be something, it is not worth discussing.

1 hour ago, xero said:

I despise noisy anti-JW complainers. It's the same w/the evangelical rabid-atheists. Both of these groups are intolerant of diversity of viewpoint and want that these be silenced or converted.

 

For twenty years they hung out with an excommunicated JW cousin. And now after 20 years Anthony III is giving a speech and giving a lesson to the Italian Brethren. And this df cousin who has returned hypocritically accuses his JWs cousins. And this kind of speech should be imperfect tolerant "spiritual food"?

Anthony III knows who God's "enemies" are and rejoices in their deaths. How "tolerant" viewpoint he has.  

20 minutes ago, Thinking said:

But what about when the prince of Persia ( one of the fallen angels, not sure if it was Satan himself.?) battled with Gabriel for a considerable amount of time…weeks??..to lazy to look it up..and he was too strong and had to call on Micheal for help….but your probably right .

Interestingly, when describing conflicts between angels (good versus bad) or between Jesus and demon-possessed people, the death of a defeated angel (on both sides) never happened. It was mostly that the influence of one or more angels on some events ceased or the demon's obsession with someone ceased, so that demon moved its influence to something else.

Descriptions of battles or wars are too symbolically described in the Bible when it comes to angels, and this is sometimes the case in some descriptions related to humans.

34 minutes ago, Thinking said:

there is no baby  being born???????

According to your publication on jwlibrary:

“And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.” (Revelation 12:5, 6)

 The child is “a son, a male.”............Therefore, the birth seen by John closely involves Jesus Christ. No, it is not Jesus’ being born of a virgin back before the first century of our Common Era; nor could it refer to Jesus’ being raised again to spirit life in 33 C.E. Furthermore, it is no transmigration. Rather, it is the birth of God’s Kingdom in 1914 as a reality, with Jesus—now in heaven for close to 20 centuries—enthroned as King.—Revelation 12:10. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101988027

WT JWorg interpreted biblical passages in such a way that the Kingdom is represented by the birth of a child, a baby. So I just used your terminology in my comment.

Next thing is that another sort of birth pains in 1 Thess are used not for 1914 but for period of time after proclamation of “peace and security”.

Your comment about birth pains was connected to GREAT WAR, aka WW1 in 1914, and not with 1 Thess.  So, i assume you are speaking about Jesus Kingdom from Revelation. Sorry  

…it certainly was a GREAT WAR ..like never before it rocked the earth and set the foundation for the second GREAT WAR…they say in the scientific world that it actually affected everyone genetically …their trauma and PTSD was I imprinted  in their genes to be passed on to their children …it really was like no other War…perhaps the first  -PAINFUL -pang felt from that pregnant woman.

1 hour ago, Pudgy said:

I have forgotten when these ARC Hearings started and Geoffrey Jackson testified, but then again, I am 10.8 years old.

* dog years

In 2015, i think.

As the institutions listed above did not join the Scheme within the required timeframe, they will be subject to the following consequences:

• Being restricted from accessing future Commonwealth grant funding, and
• Risk losing their charitable status and associated tax concessions and benefits.

The restriction on grant funding for institutions who do not join the Scheme does not remove access to any funding they currently receive from the Commonwealth, but rather will remove the ability for the institution to access future grant funding.

A new Australian Charities and Not-for-profits Commission (ACNC) governance standard has commenced which requires all registered charities to take all reasonable steps to join the Scheme if an application has been made which names them or is likely to name them. Where a registered charity fails to join the Scheme or take reasonable steps to participate in the Scheme, they will be subject to the suite of ACNC’s existing compliance powers, including deregistration. Deregistration would result in the entity losing access to a range of Commonwealth benefits and tax concessions.

In addition, charities classed as ‘basic religious charities’ (BRCs) may lose their BRC status if they do not join the Scheme within six months of being named in a redress application. Charities that lose their BRC status will be required to abide by the governance standards.

The list of institutions above is updated on a regular basis to ensure it remains current and will be the reliable source of information for departments and agencies administering grant opportunity and the registration of charities.

https://www.nationalredress.gov.au/institutions/institutions-have-not-yet-joined

1 hour ago, Pudgy said:

I followed the link

https://www.nationalredress.gov.au/institutions/search?search_api_views_fulltext=jehovah

I went to this link, and noticed that 976 JW assemblies are listed that are associated with the scheme by name. So each JW entity (congregation) accessed separately. The Chief Bethel in Australia did not do it for them.

Today I opened the official National Redress Scheme website.

WT Australia has long refused to join this program. But I see a change. JW has teamed up with many other institutions.

Two things are interesting.

First: The tacit confirmation of the GB leader that the CSA is an institutional problem within WT Australia (and globally for the whole of WTJWorg).

Second: Paying damages to victims is cheaper this way than through litigation.

https://www.nationalredress.gov.au/institutions

13 minutes ago, Arauna said:

One must not mix up the birth pains of the time of the end here on earth with the birth pains of the Kingdom in heaven.

The Kingdom is a heavenly organization while the earth is imperfect........  birth pains in a very imperfect earthly system will last very long and be very bad.    Since this is the heavenly kingdom that is born from the heavenly woman (gods heavenly organization ) there must have been much excitement and some turmoil from Satan - who wanted to stop the inauguration..  but we know the result .... Satan was thrown out of heaven.  I always have thought that the name for the baby coming through the canal is NOT a pain but a pushing. Nevertheless - this is an indication that the birth is eminent.

Jehovah claimed the Son to be His.  In a new capacity Jesus would now rule as the promised King amongst his enemies here on earth..... with Satan part of the terrible pains on earth during the final days and Armageddon.   The theme of the bible is the future kingdom hope - so many prophecies were given to Daniel to indicate when Jesus would be born and when he would start to rule.  Revelation gives us a deeper understanding of these events and the finale. .

During this time when Jesús rules amongst his enemies - the earth would experience increasing pains

Then things could be presented in such a way that the spiritual kingdom was born in heaven in 1914, and that the earthly kingdom will be born on earth in the future. So we have two births of one (same) child.

3 hours ago, Thinking said:

I dont understand what you are asking…your a little vague to me???..

If World War I is just one of many "combined signs" and one kind of pain in a series of many pains that began only at the outbreak of that world war, can WTJWorg's claim that the Kingdom was born in 1914 be correct?
War is "birth pain", Illness is "birth pain. Hunger is" birth pain "and so on. Pains happens in a row and has its own time period that can last a long time.
The fulfillment of "signs" (pains) are not events that all happen at once, but drag on for a long period of time.
For example, the war began in 1914. But a real big disease (second pain) as a result of that war happened in 1918-1920. So we have two birth pains spanning several years. If I understand "spiritual biology" well, a child is born only after numerous birth pains. According to that, the Kingdom could not be born in 1914 but later, after all the birth pains (signs) had passed.

3 hours ago, Thinking said:

it really was like no other War…perhaps the first  -PAINFUL -pang felt from that pregnant woman.

It's a little vague to me. Is the First War just the beginning of labor/birth pains that will enable the "birth of the Kingdom" after a while? Or did the birth pains have to start earlier in order for the "child" to be born at the same time as the beginning of the First War?

6 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Though I know you’re not approaching it this way, this view is consistent with the theologians trained in critical thinking who automatically reject anything prophetic since “it is impossible to know the future.” Similarly, most of them reject miracles, since “such things that violate the laws of science don’t happen.” They almost reject God himself, and a far number of them do.

On what basis should we conclude that Jesus spoke of two or more fulfillments of one and the same "prophecy"?

The problem with "miracles" is not primarily whether they once happened in the past, but whether they can happen again today or tomorrow. For both versions one needs to have an argument that could go beyond one’s belief.

Let us return to the first comment regarding more than one fulfillment of the prophecy. What argument is offered, solely on the basis of a biblical record, which shows that a prophecy has been fulfilled two or more times in the past, covered by the period from the first to the last book of the Bible? Or is this a "miraculous" interpretation of religious leaders?

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

At Pentecost 33 C.E., Jesus appointed the faithful slave over his domestics.

I have never seen this in our writings....... 

In my comment, after quoting a quote from the WT study journal, I left a link.

After reading that magazine, we can conclude that you believed in that explanation until 2013. After that GB changed the doctrine.

Of course, the GB explanation has a lot of weird connotations. According to them, the apostles are a kind of typical model, but the real fulfillment happened only in 1919.

Just now, Srecko Sostar said:

 How, then, are we to understand Jesus’ illustration about the faithful slave? In the past, our publications have said the following: At Pentecost 33 C.E., Jesus appointed the faithful slave over his domestics. The slave represents all anointed Christians on earth as a group at any one time since then. The domestics refer to the same anointed ones as individuals. In 1919, Jesus appointed the faithful slave “over all his belongings”—all his earthly Kingdom interests. However, further careful study and prayerful meditation indicate that our understanding of Jesus’ words about the faithful and discreet slave needs to be clarified. (Prov. 4:18) Let us examine the illustration and how it involves us, whether we have the heavenly or the earthly hope............. 

 The faithful slave must be made up of anointed Christians on earth............

In 1919, a time of spiritual revival, Jesus selected capable anointed brothers from among them to be the faithful and discreet slave and appointed them over his domestics...........

 In view of the foregoing, what can we conclude? When Jesus comes for judgment during the great tribulation, he will find that the faithful slave has been loyally dispensing timely spiritual food to the domestics. Jesus will then delight in making the second appointment—over all his belongings. - https://www.jw.org/ase/library/magazines/w20130715/who-is-faithful-discreet-slave/

If the invisible Jesus from heaven chooses a few people of flesh and blood on earth to be FDS, isn't that a "miracle"?
Did these people hear Jesus speak to them from heaven? Then it's a "miracle."
Did these people feel an invisible force that enlightened their minds and hearts and led them to some deed? Then it's a "miracle."
 

If there was none of that, then maybe it’s self-proclamation, right? Then it's not a "miracle". I agree with you on that.

1 minute ago, Arauna said:

I have never read that all of them were anointed in 1914 and neither did I read (EVER) that it was a miracle - so your words are not just misleading but untruth!

 How, then, are we to understand Jesus’ illustration about the faithful slave? In the past, our publications have said the following: At Pentecost 33 C.E., Jesus appointed the faithful slave over his domestics. The slave represents all anointed Christians on earth as a group at any one time since then. The domestics refer to the same anointed ones as individuals. In 1919, Jesus appointed the faithful slave “over all his belongings”—all his earthly Kingdom interests. However, further careful study and prayerful meditation indicate that our understanding of Jesus’ words about the faithful and discreet slave needs to be clarified. (Prov. 4:18) Let us examine the illustration and how it involves us, whether we have the heavenly or the earthly hope............. 

 The faithful slave must be made up of anointed Christians on earth............

In 1919, a time of spiritual revival, Jesus selected capable anointed brothers from among them to be the faithful and discreet slave and appointed them over his domestics...........

 In view of the foregoing, what can we conclude? When Jesus comes for judgment during the great tribulation, he will find that the faithful slave has been loyally dispensing timely spiritual food to the domestics. Jesus will then delight in making the second appointment—over all his belongings. - https://www.jw.org/ase/library/magazines/w20130715/who-is-faithful-discreet-slave/

24 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Do you know the definition of a miracle? Go read it again.  An act of anointing is NOT a miracle.  Cyrus the great was anointed by jehovah and he was a pagan!

The act of anointing may or may not be a "miracle."

It depends on who is doing the anointing. Also for what purpose the anointing was done.

The Bible reports on various types of anointing. Some are made with oil on the head, some are made with fragrant oil on the feet, some are made with “spirit” and with “power”.

Some anointings were done by women. Jesus also experienced that the woman “anointed” him.

So what kind of “anointing” was it, when we talk about the people of 1919 in the WTS?

19 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

But it wasn't you or me that made them the F&DS, it was them, THEMSELVES that decided they were. They exalted themselves above all the other Anointed ones. They called them selves the F&DS. 

This is a problem for one reason only, which is explained in WTJWorg with wording; Miracles ceased in the first century.

If the miracles stopped in the first century, then it is to be expected that the anointing from heaven (act of miracle) in the year 1919 did not happen ..... because miracles do not actually happen anymore.

22 hours ago, Arauna said:

A generation is overlapping and I have demonstrated it here on these pages many times

It is clear to everyone that generations overlap, and not just two of them, but dozens of generations overlap in a certain period of time, in fact continuously from the beginning of man's existence to the present day.
But that’s not what GB would like to point out when talking about the “overlapping generation” that completely replaces the ONE and ONLY  "The 1914 generation".

23 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Can you clarify what is so wrong about making sure that everything fits?

What is the problem with fitting something new into an existing entirety / complex that has worked almost "smoothly" until then? 

Instead of analyzing through my own "intellectual exertion" (perhaps on another occasion) I used a biblical quote from the Gospel of Mark.

21 No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. If he does, the patch  tears away  from  it, the new from the old, and a worse tear is made. 22 And no one puts new wine into old qwineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins—and the  wine is destroyed, and so are the skins.  But  new wine  is  for fresh wineskins.”

2 minutes ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

The GB state that they ARE the Faithful and Discreet Slave distributing properfood at the right time.

You just reminded me to wonder; What is the difference between “perfect spiritual food” that does not exist in WTJWorg, because GB themselves say that food is not perfect, compared to “spiritual food at the proper time”?

If something important to us came at the best moment, then it is great or "perfect".
But now we need to ask ourselves what is it that needs to be “perfect”? The moment when something comes or the thing / phenomenon that comes?

Both, if we seek and expect the best.

This opens up a new dimension of thinking. The "best spiritual food in proper time" is adapted to the time/moment and generation of the recipient. Every new best spiritual food at proper time needs to be adapted to new circumstances and new people. That is why WTJWorg is changing doctrines.

"We have to be absolutely sure that everything fits."

2 hours ago, Pudgy said:

In order to be a liar, you have to know that what you are telling is not true.

This conclusion seems fine to me.

But as often happens, that word appears - but.
At the time of the doctrine popularly called "the 1914 generation", we do not know today which people took part in it and how they led the debates, which of them were for, which were against, and which abstained. We today do not know what motivated these people and whether they were simply mistaken in believing in the wrong idea.
Or were they actually right so that the second / third coming of the Kingdom actually took place within the "generation of 1914", but in a different way than expected and which remained invisible to WTJWorg and JW members?

But let’s get back to a simpler reality. When WTJWorg concluded that “Jesus thought differently” and that "he actually meant" the “overlapping generation,” then it could be said and written in official documents (WT literature):

That the former WTJWorg leadership taught the wrong doctrine because they believed in delusion and misconception. Why they believed in delusion and thought wrongly? Because they didn't know the real truth. We believe in another idea today. If this idea turns out to be wrong in the future, you need to know that we didn’t want to lie to you but that we just sincerely believed we were right this time.

7 hours ago, Dmitar said:

This obtuse statement doesn't reflect the warnings the Watchtower has made to the public and the Christian Congregations before governments began to notice the harm that Individuals needed to be aware of and take personal action.

Looks like someone dealt with the problem before WTJWorg, right? .... Long Island Press, Rocky Mountain News of Denver and the book The Silent Children. If WTJWorg noticed that there was a problem, how come they never addressed that the problem existed in their own organization too? Because there were documents about it that were kept by everyone in charge of it, from the elders in congregations to the archives of Bethel and HQ.

8 hours ago, Dmitar said:

the Long Island Press carried the front page heading: “Sodomy Ring Smashed. Group charged with sexually abusing youths.”

8 hours ago, Dmitar said:

published in the Rocky Mountain News of Denver, Colorado. The statement was based on a nationwide survey of household violence as presented to a subcommittee of the House of Representatives.

8 hours ago, Dmitar said:

According to the book The Silent Children,