Srecko Sostar

18 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. 

No mention of "apostates" here. 

How you treat pagan or tax collector?

10 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Why would anyone want to meet with apostates to discuss

This is an interesting view.

When JWs go preaching to other people, we can say that these other people are members of religions that, according to WTJWorg, are called "Babylon the Great", and thus not only fell away from true worship and became apostates, but were doomed to destruction because of their affiliation to "Babylon," right?

Yet, JWs discuss “spiritual truths” with them and argue to convince them of their “truth”. Interesting absurd in light of your question and claim?

8 hours ago, Dmitar said:

What kind of selective information about the 6000 years of man's existence are you referring to, that shouldn't be implied for the year 1975? For the Bible Students it was in 1872/1873, hence the beginning of the harvest age in 1874.

WT publications after 1975 and today, also public speeches, (go in the direction of explaining that 1975 is the end of 6000 years of human history and as part of the idea that then could begin the 1000 year of Christ's Kingdom), comes down to "accusing" some individuals who misunderstood the thesis of announcing the 6000th anniversary of the creation of Adam.

I’ve never read in WT publications what kind of individuals that means. What is the structure of these individuals; elders, some GB members, someone from the general population, females or males JW members etc.?

All subsequent interpretations regarding 1975 never include the WTJWorg Administration or any portion thereof. This is important to note, as it shows that religious leadership wants to be free from any error in this regard (despite constant claims that they- GB are imperfect and how spiritual food is imperfect and erroneous).

After such a set scene, the only thing left is to call out unimportant individuals who began to fantasize so deeply about 1975 that they initiated thought processes that prompted them to make extraordinary efforts to witness, resign from work, sell houses and the like. In addition to the "positive effect" of such a spiritual and emotional state (a great increase in preaching, biblical studies and new baptisms), there is also a negative aspect of faith in the coming of Armageddon and hope for the establishment of the Kingdom.

Is the non-recognition of the GB administration (of that time) that they had participated in the 1975 euphoria a form of selective informing of JW members? And is today’s GB deliberately covering up the real past?

6 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

@Srecko Sostar As pointed out earlier because of the Drone. Now there is even more confusion hence why I was clear on why you cannot trust the MSM 100%. The narrative has changed to both Russia and Ukraine pointing the figure at each other and some are now claiming there was a Bomb inside the Drone; for it would not make sense for Ukraine to have a Bomb intended for Croatia, and now Croatia is at the heels of NATO criticizing them.

Both Russia and Ukraine have denied they launched the drone.

The Croatian Defense Minister Mario Banozic: “Traces of explosives and clues suggesting that this was not a reconnaissance aircraft were found. We found parts of an air bomb."

So it is a wise move to actually wait before jumping to conclusion based off of speculation.

Yes, it is well said that we should wait for more information. But let’s also keep in mind that future information can be selective. So perhaps we may not know exactly what the contents of the drone are.

Speaking of such a comment, I would add that it can be applied to the topic of 1975 too. What if GB and some others individuals provide selective information about the real events in the 1970s?

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

Anyone can claim they saw a drone fall, but clearly you can't claim origin and what was the origin of impact, now can you?

:)))) you are really funny. 

I can claim how i saw NLO fall, and you would believe this? .....

...... but if i made claim it came from Pluto but how origin of NLO is Klingon's, that would make you suspicious?

5 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

Are you talking about the drone? Did they figure out, who it belongs to? Some news outlets are saying, that model belongs to Ukraine.

On the news, they say that today they managed to pull most parts out of the ground (the drone, size of little airplane,  crashed into the ground with all its might). That it was carrying a plane bomb. That they found the "black box". And that they will try to find out where it was launched from with the help of forensics of the remaining parts and if necessary in cooperation with external experts.
Fortunately, the drone was carrying a plane bomb (cca 120 kg), it exploded in the depths of the earth as it struck soft ground, according this evening TV report. (The drone fell on the campus, but no one was killed or injured, only 40 parked vehicles damaged.

They said model is old USSR drone TU-141 (6 tons) from 1970s-80s. 

10 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

No, just your focus on certain areas where words become insignificant to the entire picture. But, then again, in order to get the full atmosphere of that time, you had to be there. Words alone and articles cannot tell you everything about how an individual lived and dealt with life in the 70s, no more than they can if they tried for 1914.

Certainly, the live atmosphere and geography play a big role. That's where we agree.

12 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

You call it guilt, I won't. I would call it enthusiasm

One condition can easily turn into another.

18 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

So you're saying the drone didn't fall in Zagreb?

What I am saying because of propaganda, you have to do the research to not fall victims; especially when Left-Wingers are involved.

Remember - The first casualty of War is Truth. So because of escalation, it can lead to various stories and actions, some people being fooled, even out of their bank accounts.

I conclude (after your two comments) that you are actually claiming that the news (BBC) from the link I put up is fake news. Or at least it shouldn't be trusted, should it?
Fortunately for me, I live in Zagreb, so I claim that the drone fell in Zagreb. Unless you want to believe me I'm telling the truth?

27 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

If the confusion was global, it would have effected ALL JWs at the time,

So you don't believe GB will give them life-saving information? Or do you not believe that GB information will be available to every JW in a timely manner?

30 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

it can only mean one thing; GB has a "special knowledge" of the end of the world in Armageddon.

How can they have special knowledge of something of which was never uttered in 1975?

I'm talking about one and you're talking about the other. Fantastic. 

9 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Which End was near for apostles (which End was the End for them) ?

If you understood Pentecost 33 A.D. you'd know why the Messianic Message was preached, even before that, prior to Jesus ascending to God in Heaven, he gave a Commission for Christians to adhere to, Matthew 28:18-20.

Which reads - 18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: 20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Everyone should be well aware of what that entails, as is the events mentioned in Acts 1 and 2, which can be traced back to the Gospel of Luke.

Concerning the End (The End Is Nigh), Jesus and others alluded to this, but in Jesus' case it is in regards to the Signs. The term, even Biblically refers to potential apocalyptical and eschatological events (Biblical Apocalypse). Especially if one can grasp what Revelation entails, as is the visions of some of God's Followers.

Back then, from century to century and even now, it is not something out of the ordinary for a Christian to proclaim the End is Near all while still being alive. Granted no one knows the day, God could act if the given circumstances are met for it.

You wrote a lot, and without the merits of things.
If Jesus knew there would be no The End in the first century and knew the apostles misunderstood his words why did he leave them in the wrong belief?

Preaching in style - The end is near (very close) but without it really being that close is crazy. Is it in the interest of Jesus and God to keep followers in a constant spasm of anticipation?

16 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

They, GB, made claim how Jesus and JHVH have complete TRUST to FDS aka GB.

Religious leaders of JWs never claim or wrote about God's Day taking place in that year. If they had, you'd produce the remark already.

You've been asked this, perhaps, every year now.

That is like be saying Srecko thinks a Ukrainian Drone is legitimate, when in reality, it is based on assumption due to the situation taking place. Or the events of Snake Island, etc.

I think a more simpler term would be jumping to conclusions, some of which, even got the best of JWs at the time, obviously.

What are you really talking about? 

I said: They, GB, made claim how Jesus and JHVH have complete TRUST to FDS aka GB.

You respond: Religious leaders of JWs never claim or wrote about God's Day taking place in that year. If they had, you'd produce the remark already.

??? Tactics in debate ???

Another example. You said: That is like be saying Srecko thinks a Ukrainian Drone is legitimate, when in reality, it is based on assumption due to the situation taking place. Or the events of Snake Island, etc.

I asked you, do you believe in report about drone in Zagreb, just that. 

1 hour ago, Dmitar said:

Now understand the context and you will be enlightened. Your focus on words is for the birds!

Thanks for your effort to answer.

However, when you say that words are irrelevant then I disagree with you. Words are a product of the spirit (spirituality) in man. In birds, the product of the spirit is - chirping.

1 hour ago, Dmitar said:

Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service.

1 hour ago, Dmitar said:

*** km 5/74 p. 4 How Are You Using Your Life? ***
So, then, ask yourself: How am I using my life? Can I make adjustments that will enable me to pioneer? If I can, will failure to do so indicate to Jehovah that I am living to satisfy personal desires, rather than to do His will? 

Our friend SM has recently been using a counter-argument called - appeal to motive. What you have quoted goes in the direction that the JW believer feels guilty, that he is not doing enough, that more needs to be given, etc.

I wonder how many JWs are selling their homes today, quitting their jobs and going on missionaries? Where are the reports on that? That should be more than in the 1970s, because today Gog's attack is closer than ever. Instead, you go to houses and villages with the help of google maps or google earth, for 2 years now. But well, the covid is giving up so it will be different for your work.

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

He made that clear to his Apostles and other followers of Christ, for they were aware that the End is near and they must proclaim the Messianic Message as is tell people about God's Kingdom, likewise, with that information, it is up to the people to either accept or not.

Which End was near for apostles (which End was the End for them) ?

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Personally, I don’t believe GB knows more than other JW members. GB just has more ideas and more interpretations because it is their “job” to "survive", to keep them in position at all.

Sadly, to your behest, they never made the claim. No one knows, however speculation can be drawn compared to most in that day who assume it will happen by other means; which can cause a domino effect

They, GB, made claim how Jesus and JHVH have complete TRUST to FDS aka GB.

And as consequence GB calls every JW member to show same trust to GB because from GB will come "life saving instructions".

"Life saving instructions" in/for the time of global confusion and attack on JW members, it can only mean one thing; GB has a "special knowledge" of the end of the world in Armageddon. So who should believe that but you and JW?

Yes, they made The Claim......  But you don't listen? Or you missed the WT articles and JWTV ?

41 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

I wouldn't trust the BBC if I were you because when it comes to a situation like this, they're prone to give bias, as is war mongering notions if the situation calls for it.

So you're saying the drone didn't fall in Zagreb?

53 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

First; You inadvertently (I guess) compare GB to Jesus. Jesus, you say, did not help the apostles to stop believing in delusion. Analogously, GB did not help to break the 1975 idea out of the head of JW followers.

Unfortunately, it comes down to understanding.

• Half believed in what was said in context.
• The other Half assumed otherwise and took action.

In both groups, the claim that this day/year would be it. Moreover them preaching the gospel would not be a thing due to Matthew 24 and 25 as is the verse in John. There was indeed arguments and debate based discussions with within the JW community due to these 2 views - hence speculation.

From what I am aware, their religious leaders at the time never made the claim, as did any of their works starting from 1966 (hence Witness' original post where her quoted stated they did - was wrong - I still have the links to the original threads). The End is Near, which is true, but the End being specifically 1975 whereas even a list of factors deem otherwise, speculation, hence why they addressed in later on down to human error and or understanding (the part you excluded from your source).

Which two groups are you talking about? About two groups of 1st century apostles? Or about two JW groups from around 1975? Or both?

Do both groups have the right to consider themselves true followers of Jesus?

46 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Rests of their days - an Idiom to natural cause - death. [To spend the remaining portion of one's life (doing something or being some place).] You do realize that people do what they do until the remaining theirs of their life.

I know that you are more intelligent than this what you wrote! Please don't use such model of explanation  which offends the intelligence of the readers of your comments!

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

Yes these words encourage the belief of 75….it should have been stepped on instead….this selling of business happened in our area..some openly preached 75 was the end….probably much like the apostles on there first mission who thought Jesus time had come to rule as king….he didn’t stop them with that false understanding either..

I see at least two moments here.

First; You inadvertently (I guess) compare GB to Jesus. Jesus, you say, did not help the apostles to stop believing in delusion. Analogously, GB did not help to break the 1975 idea out of the head of JW followers.

Second; Why would Jesus not want to help his friends (the apostles) see the truth and the light? Why would he want them to be misled? What special value does cover-up about this matter have for the lives of the apostles and other followers? Analogously, does GB have "knowledge" that they don't want to share with rank and files JW members? 

Personally, I don’t believe GB knows more than other JW members. GB just has more ideas and more interpretations because it is their “job” to "survive", to keep them in position at all.

3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

spoofed website

One should definitely be very careful with such things.

Mystery drone from Ukraine war crashes in Croatia.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60709952

Is this the rest of the days of our lives?

6 hours ago, Pudgy said:

I FOUND A SCAN OF THE 1974 KINGDOM MINISTRY MENTIONED ABOVE !

Here it is !

 

Notice this:

... planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service.

Well yes, they point to 1975 as critical and final date. .............. Rest of their days :)))) not months, not years, not decades, but DAYS.

Do we live today in the "rest of days of the overlapping generation"? SM, Dmitar please some illumination from you?

6 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

It's not meant to disparage the Watchtower more so than individuals. There's a difference. If I thought that institution was betraying its oath to serve God, I would drop them in a heartbeat. It's 2022, I haven't seen that yet. 

Therefore, it was my personal decision not to associate with apostate thinkers in Bethel. To me, they were the enemy of God, just like I think any apostate is an enemy of God. Therefore, I have NO personal association here, nor would I want to.

Keep in Mind, I PERSONALLY knew Fred and Raymond Franz in a personal level. My heart was broken by Raymond's betrayal.

No matter how you feel then or now, it's still good information. Why? Because it shows, or even proves, that an organization is made up of people who are in governing structures, no matter what level such individuals or clusters are according to Bethel, more influenced by the negative than the positive.

Also, the concentration of “apostates” in Bethel refutes claims in WTJWorg magazines that the organization is “run with hs”. If there were them at that time, then there have always been them until today.
Who runs WTJWorg?

Who did Raymond betray? What did he betray? Your image you had of him? Or you personally? Or God? Perhaps he betrayed you on that personal level. So it is more about emotion. He disappointed you emotionally, and not on issue of moral, principle, justice, Bible or God. 

15 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

That's why the great apostasy that was started by Raymond Franz obligated the Watchtower to purge itself. This is why I refused to join the Bethel Family at that time. There were too many apostates that can out in the late 70s and 80s from Bethel for my spirituality. I'm glad I didn't.

Excellent info!

10 minutes ago, Equivocation said:

Seeing you down voted, it seems you've taken that to heart.

Of course, with all/full right for such reaction. 

47 minutes ago, Equivocation said:

@Srecko Sostar Dude, you effectively lost the plot here, which can be seen from the comments you made. After what was said, in full detail, anything you say is 100% nullified going forward. It would be best for you to return to Cedars at this point.

You received confirmation from a third party that the WT organization had periodic collective hysteria about the end of the world.
These are 1914, 1925, 1941, 1975, until the end of the 20th century. Dude  

45 minutes ago, Equivocation said:

Oh boy. 1975 Again?

In 1941 the WT organization also fueled feelings about Armageddon at the time, even within that same year.

Cartons of Children that had been deposited in The Arena were now opened, and Judge Rutherford instructed the children how to come and each get a copy thereof, those in the rear half of The Arena marching in two columns out through a side exit, and those in the front half of The Arena marching up over the platform and out through a rear exit. As the march began, the orchestra (minus all its children instrumentalists) struck up and rendered songs, "Children of the Heavenly King," "The Sword of the Lord and of Gideon," and "Who Is on the Lord's Side'" while the vast audience sang. Never was there a more moving Sight in these "last days". Many, including strong men, wept at the demonstration. Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided Instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon. What a gift I and to so many! The manner of releasing the new book Children was an outnght surprise to all, but the almighty hand of the All-wise One, Jehovah, was in it, and the maneuver was most blessed indeed. Thereafter Children, the author's edition, was disposed of to adult conventioners, on a contribution.    WT September 15 Page 288

4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

1975 being the the start of God's Day was never promoted by them, therefore, the latter leaned on speculation.

Let's remember, again,  where and from whom the "speculations" arose? Within WT organizations by the JW members* themselves. 

*word members including all individuals and groups inside organization (FDS aka GB, writers of articles, illustrators of publications, elders, rank and file members etc.)   

4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Truthers do not lie.

We do not lie. And also do a lot of research in regards to a lot of things, even serious situations, other cases, some of our own suffered, but it does not stop us for seeking what truth is. even the best of us, likewise to our counterparts, the preppers.

11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Christians do not lie.

Christians are to produce a true witness, and call out a false witness. Clearly, you are using a narrative based on assumption and no evidence of which you claim can be found.

11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

All Truthers are Christians.

Do you realize these are different things. Different communities.

Some Truthers are Christian, others are not Christian. Serena Shim was simply a Journalist, I am not a Journalist as with some of the rest.

Although Christians are to speak truth, the latter community goes beyond that. This is why when I make the difference between the aware and unaware, I make note to it.

11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

All Christians are Truthers. 

Again missing 2 things together without know the latter. Not too long ago you attempted to use a definition without even knowing the history, therefore showing yourself to be ignorant. One thing for certain, they do have tabs on your community.

You're so funny. So don’t you see that you have stuck to an intellectual trap and a mistake in the logic found in the claims I wrote, on purpose. Because I have a "motive" :)).

Truthers do not lie.

Christians do not lie.

All Truthers are Christians.

All Christians are Truthers. 

What is wrong with these claims? It does not include all other groups of people. So what was written is not true. Every man, religious or atheist or agnostic or whatever, is capable of telling the truth and is capable of lying and is capable of speaking half-truths and speaking half-lies.