Srecko Sostar

13 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

Then you don't know the Jews as well as you think.

The Bible speaks about Jews, isn't that enough for me?  

21 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

Once again, you either have faith or you don't. It's that simple.

Mankind has had faith all this time. That is why we are now in the era of the Internet and virtual reality, among other things (with faith in God and with faith in people).

Copies of the copies have been found and we have been using them for a long time. What if those saved and found copies are the ones with errors (accidental or intentional) in copying?

If we believe that the writing of the original text was inspired by God, that is one thing.
But no copyist of the first copy until the last copy was inspired to copy. What is not inspired automatically implies the occurrence of an error.

JW elders have access via their password to log in to an electronic database that is not available to other JW members. How big the database is and what it contains depends on how much permission their status gives them, which they received from Bethel or WTJWorg. Can each elder access the same database as high-ranking Bethelite? Probably not. But let those who know say.

Although it is not surprising that not every JW member can access the entire database of the organization to which he belongs (because this is the case in all other normal "secular" organizations/institutions, so WTJWorg is no different in this regard, because it is ultimately "human organization"), remains a worrying realization that the history of "God's earthly organization" contains doctrines and practices that cannot be attributed to a  "God's guidance" and "true truth" that clearly separates the right from the wrong.

7 hours ago, Dmitar said:

The bible is a book of faith.

I can agree. And you should agree that this is about believing in multiple factors. Faith in those who wrote. Faith in those who made copies. Faith in those who found copies of copies. Faith in those who interpret copies of copies............Faith in a God who allows deception to happen.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1492048509507354626

9 hours ago, Dmitar said:

What point of reference are you referring to?

Is the Bible a book with a linear text or a non-linear one?
People who, after many centuries, and after various written Old and New Testament texts, came up with the idea to collect writings and try to arrange them in chronological order left us a book as we know it today.
Various Bible scholars, as well as other ordinary people, have sought to find the hidden meanings of literal or prophetic or symbolic words. That would mean trying to understand the Bible in a non-linear way. That is why there are various footnotes, links and other non-biblical and secular texts that interpret Biblical texts and enable the reader to "explore".

Because the Bible does not contain information or clues as to what was before Adam and Eve in heaven and whether angels were also subjected to a test of faithfulness like the people of Eden, we can only assume.

Eternity and immortality, are there any differences? Maybe only linguistically (semantic), because these values do not exist experientially in people's lives, and are therefore in some way meaningless to discuss. Except in a philosophical sense. What part of religious belief (doctrine) is the philosophical part in the lives of JW believers? It is similar with the use of the terms perfect, imperfect, sinful and sinless.

9 hours ago, Dmitar said:

We as imperfect beings don't have that luxury of perfection. However, we all can remain blameless by also following in the footsteps of Christ.

And so. It is now clearer why GB thinks they are acting flawlessly (blamelessly) in various actions.

They can err but such errors are not for reproach. 

2 hours ago, xero said:

I wonder...if I unmask the comments from people I've reasonably blocked and look. Will I turn into a pillar of salt?

You probably won’t turn into a pillar of salt, just as you won’t die in Armageddon if you disobey GB. 

6 hours ago, Dmitar said:

I wonder if @Pudgy would submit the very first article from Pastor Russell that indicates if Satan tells the truth, it's still the truth.

It seems Pastor Russell's take of Satan is of conning and a liar, which most of the Bible Students publications indicate. Therefore, Satan manipulation of a weak mind can be successful by pretending to speak truth for the wrong reason.

I am of the opinion that "truth" is discernible through several (and more) possibilities; Through believing in the one who speaks to us. Through the meaning and logic of what was said. Through determining the credibility of what was said. Through factual examination. By assuming that something is possible for which accuracy or inaccuracy cannot be established. Or all this and something else about proving, is left to others to decide for us, so we accept without much need to be suspicious.

Genesis chapter 3:

² The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, ³ but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

⁴ “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. ⁵ “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

What is a lie here?

Do we know anything about the possible fact that YHVH may have told the angels that they (angels) would die if they disobeyed him, God? Was there a "Tree" for angels in the heaven?

If we assume something like this, because angels are only slightly "bigger (higher)" than humans, so the "free will" test could be valid for them as well. If the devil "ate the fruit of the tree in the heavenly paradise" and did not die because of it, then his claim to Eve that neither she nor Adam would die was merely an experiential claim based on the current situation or current state of the rebellious angel. 

Then his claim was not a lie, but only a product of his experience, and that is, that he as a rebel was not punished by death, so he "assumed" that neither Adam and Eve would die violating the same kind of prohibition.
Moreover, the second part of his (devil) statement that Adam and Eve would become gods and know what good and evil are proved to be completely true, because YHVH himself said exactly the same thing when he said:

²² And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 

Pilate's question; “What is true (truth)”, was a good question.

9 hours ago, Dmitar said:

The word salvation (14:7) occurs frequently in the Psalms. While Christians define salvation primarily as deliverance from sin, the psalmists would have understood it primarily in its OT sense of deliverance from earthly danger.

One word. One faith in the same God. Two interpretations.

9 hours ago, Dmitar said:

they need to know scripture the correct way. Apparently, there are many Jehovah's Witnesses that fall under that category too.

GB+Helpers+Writing department fall under that category too?

9 hours ago, Dmitar said:

15 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If something is hurting WTJWorg, then we see that the people running the organization are engaging in harm prevention activities. In an administrative way, they fight against spiritual and physical damage.

This is your personal opinion. Did Jesus and the apostles cringed over on what people thought of them. What kind of spiritual and physical damage have they controlled in RUSSIA? By former Jehovah's Witnesses across the world, voicing their obtuse demands for fake justice? Has anybody stopped you from posting? You are causing spiritual damage, yet you are allowed, why?

Various legal teams and WTJWorg's complaints to the world's Western institutions are trying to reduce the damage in Russia. But Russia is far from the United States and is considered an enemy of Western Democracy, so things are complicated.
Hunting through legal teams for some YouTubers and bloggers who deal with WTJWorg shows that my observation is good.
My comments on this forum may not be interesting enough for WTJWorg or they don't consider me a threat. And maybe they don’t even know this Open Club exists.

9 hours ago, Dmitar said:

I think you're overdue for an oil change.

:)) little humor is always welcomed.

43 minutes ago, Thinking said:

…and why he allows certain things….

If we conclude from all the events of several thousand years of human history known to us, then we would say that God allows all things, not just some or certain.

If God allows good and evil to live together, then one could also expect man to imitate God's example in his way of life and allow good and evil to happen in everything, too. That would be weird, wouldn't it?

So, we do not agree that evil is allowed, but we try to suppress it and punish those who do it. What do I mean? The mantra in the saying; God allows this or that, it has no special value, because we humans do not want to allow this or that to happen if it harms us and if we can resist.

If something is hurting WTJWorg, then we see that the people running the organization are engaging in harm prevention activities. In an administrative way, they fight against spiritual and physical damage.

Do JW members emulate that example and prevent the damage inflicted on them by GB and their representatives?

19 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

Having an erred perception is a form of seduction.

If our perception is conditioned by the seduction that came from WTJWorg then the individual is not the only culprit for his own deficient ability to observe. 

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

The dogmatic views did exist…

Do you think this is a thing of the past? And that there is no dogmatism today?
If you believe that then you are seduced, unfortunately.

“New lights,” like the overlapping generation, Gog and Magog, GB going to heaven, etc. are nothing but a construction of the human imagination. When such ideas are translated into the official text of publications then they become official teachings. Any intellectual resistance is an alarm for elders who are obliged to suppress the appearance of opposing views or criticisms. At that moment, it becomes clear that this is a dogma, which needs to be kept above water in order to stay alive.

If a JW member commented in a private or public setting that he saw no justification for believing in, say, an “overlapping generation,” and if that meant free discussion of all present, without punishment, then we could say the organization is not dogmatic. That she is ready to be subjected to "examinations of the spirit" by her own members. Because they are legitimately called upon (by Bible) to question the correctness of teaching.

9 hours ago, Dmitar said:

13 hours ago, Thinking said:

I don’t even read most of sreckos  posts so I’m not sure of what you are referring to…so sorry I cannot give you an answer

....... Does that mean you sometimes agree, the governing body and church elders are overreaching, since you stated at times the Watchtower can be dogmatic?

As far as I can remember, the publications of WTJWorg, ie the authors of the articles, have confirmed literally that some things said in the literature are nothing but dogmatism. How is the state of dogma confirmed? By imposing a teaching, the construction of which is later changed or completely rejected. While the dogma is in force there are dire consequences for those who oppose it.

WTJWorg is full of dogmatic approaches. Older members should be more aware of this than those who have only recently joined JWorg.

9 hours ago, Dmitar said:

13 hours ago, Thinking said:

I don’t even read most of sreckos  posts so I’m not sure of what you are referring to…so sorry I cannot give you an answer

He thinks of you well enough to defend your post.

Wrong Dmitar. I was just support some thoughts and reasoning.

17 hours ago, Dmitar said:

there in no such thing as a Judeo-Christian

The Old Testament is part of Judaism. The New Testament is part of Christianity. So what is the Bible?

13 hours ago, Dmitar said:

The misconception @Srecko Sostar has is with ancient judicial system that the Elders apply along with the two witness scriptural rule. He thinks the entire "congregation" needs to decide, instead of the Spiritual Guides deciding. Part of the congregation deciding wasn't dealt with, with the ancient church leaders?

The topic (of the judiciary) is more complex than what I commented on and what you are commenting on. 

Moral principles, God’s commandments, tribal customs, the influence of surrounding tribes and nations and their systems of “legislation” should also be considered.

We have patriarchal, tribal, national and other factors that have contributed to the development of the legislature and the judiciary (prior to Exile time to Moses to Judges to Kings to Sanhedrin to Jesus Church etc).

We have the power of one person to decide (the head of a family or tribe, nation, a patriarch or a king, for example) to a group of people at lower and higher levels of the judiciary (Lesser Sanhedrin and Great Sanhedrin, for example)."

18 hours ago, Dmitar said:

the first century judicial system

The specificity of the Jewish judicial system should be recognized in its public process, not the chamber one where there are three who decide the guilt or innocence of one. Whether such a way is good or bad, I leave to the discussion. But if WTJWorg boasts of its authenticity and originality stemming from the Judeo-Christian milieu, then it is seen that in this matter they do not imitate the workings of the 1st century church.

22 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

We can clearly see how the consciences of JWs have been ruined or dulled, because they put up with the immorality, or actually support the immorality by supporting the GB and it's man made rules.  

WTJWorg has mastered the technique of how followers learn what is acceptable and what is not in accordance with the "principles" explained in writing through literature or interpretative form by elders.

10 hours ago, Pudgy said:

There is a lot that we do not know about Jesus and the apostles, I think somewhere it says something about if everything was written about Jesus the world cannot hold all the books…… Which may have been an exaggeration, an allusion,  or something.

Yes, for both thoughts.

10 hours ago, Pudgy said:

It’s very heartwarming to think that there was no discrimination between the five.

An empty stomach must be filled.

22 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Can you expand?

It is not necessary. I only combine terms from today’s practice and tradition in the WTJWorg administration with a raw example from the 1st century, from Jesus himself. Jesus did not need two elders as witnesses, but it was a multitude of men and women, and even children I suppose, who witnessed his “treatment” of sinners of all kinds. Whether his example is applicable today or not can be debated. 

For Jesus, the "congregation, church" (Matthew 18:15-17) was clearly a community of all believers, not just a clerical class with judicial and theological powers.

3 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

8 hours ago, Thinking said:

as a people have we been too authoritarian…to dogmatic at times…yes…

How does this statement justify how Jesus and the apostles dealt with their everyday life of preaching the gospel? Don't influence the readers by your inaccurate depiction of bad Christian life.

How many "judicial commissions" did Jesus attend or preside over? And in situations where he was a judge, he did the job alone without two or three other elders. This is also sort of description about Christian life and influence some readers.

What is bad about @Thinking's resume and perception? 

19 hours ago, Dmitar said:

To the Angels, not man as you think

Could be. But does that mean that it was only with the record of Moses that people in general and we came to know about that thing? Do you think that Adam, Eve and then with their children never talked about this event and came to some emotions, thoughts and conclusions?

7 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

On the contrary, it applies to those that don't have faith in God,

 Maybe you mean this kind of faith an trust in the human leaders of WTJWorg? :))

At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not. - WT 2013 

As the end of this system of things draws near, we need to trust in Jehovah’s way of doing things as never before. Why? During the great tribulation, we may receive instructions that seem strange, impractical, or illogical. Of course, Jehovah will not speak to us personally. He will likely provide direction through his appointed representatives. That will hardly be the time to second-guess the direction or to view it with skepticism, wondering, ‘Is this really coming from Jehovah, or are the responsible brothers acting on their own?’ How will you fare during that crucial time in human history? The answer might be indicated by how you view theocratic direction now. If you trust the direction we receive today and readily obey, you will likely do the same during the great tribulation. - WT 2022

If God never intended man to recognize good from evil, why can we be convinced that man can do so, only because Adam and Eve ate an apple? What special knowledge about good and evil did they gain by eating apple? Is it really the same kind of knowledge that God and They have?
If this is the same level of knowledge then it is truly devastating that the devil can deceive the people who have, who have acquired “divine knowledge of good and evil,” from Adam to the present day.