Srecko Sostar

I’m not sure if it’s possible to collect data on the annual revenue and annual expenditure of all WTJWorg companies, and there are thousands of them. Why I say thousands. Because in addition to those big and famous names that we associate with several legal bodies, there are thousands of assemblies/congregations that are essentially small branches of large companies worldwide.

What do I want to say? Several data could be found in the JW Yearbooks. Some information can be found online. But to sum up all the money (income and expenses)?

PS - Seeing the entry and exit of money by state or by branch is a difficult task.

42 minutes ago, BroRando said:

they melt like snow flakes at an inferno. 😀

 :))This description is very similar to the descriptions of those people who believe in hell.

43 minutes ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Well I suppose you could lump eveyone on this forum together because they are all on the same forum. 

:)) this is so good. Dmitar is in this forum "club", but in the same time he isn't.

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I suspect you already knew that @Srecko Sostar never called on me in any way. This is something you apparently just made up when you stated it as fact under another topic/thread.  But just in case you weren't aware, I thought I'd let you know. It will say a lot about your motives, if you continue to repeat this unfounded and false idea.

His claim about our "secret" communication is absurd. This could be due to some kind of paranoia, misinterpreted events on the forum or simply throwing a “hook”.
As you can see, I did not react to his statement because it is meaningless, and if anyone wants to believe in stupidity, good luck to him.  

9 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

Are you saying, anyone in the world can be a Witness of Jehovah without following Christ and God's Commands written in the bible, the book of knowledge?

Please look, what was the ancient nation of Israel, for example (not to mention Abel as first witness and period of Moses and formation of nation)? Well they were Witnesses for YHVH, right? I guess that's how they felt and how God wanted to be. And they were not Christians.  

3 hours ago, Thinking said:

So you and others come on forums and tear down..at times rightfully so…at times blatantly wrong…you really dont understand what you are doing because you see thru your eyes…mere human eyes…..thus incapable as to trying to see it thru Jehovah’s eyes of understanding …you cannot even work it out by the patterns laid out in the scriptures of how Jehovah’s people act and how he treats them.

Five or six years ago a brother from bethel stated at an assembly that they were aware there  were a lot of things wrong with the organization and they were trying to fix them but he didnt think they would be able to correct everything before the end…

They Know Sereko..and Jehovah knows….now it’s time to trust in Jehovah…or do you think Jehovah cannot control his people…whom ever they are?

Thanks for the extended comment.

You mention looking through "human eyes" and through "God's eyes". I fear that the assurances that man can look through the “eyes of God” will lead us nowhere. Looking at the spiritual is connected with faith. And faith is a personal feeling and state of mind. I think it is not necessary to go further in explaining what our beliefs bring to us, because it is a part of our everyday life that provides material evidence of the faith of individuals and organizations.

Iinteresting, it is a constantly unclear state of what an organization is and what believers are within an organization. That betel member talks about a lot of bad things in the organization, you said. What does he mean? Does he mean the legal aspect of a company that has poor corporate regulation? Or does he mean people who are responsible persons and represent a legal entity in a broad conglomerate of a multitude of different legal bodies that have been legalized before the authorities? Does he mean the spiritual or some other condition of the believers who are members of the organization? .... etc.

It is not clear to me what this is supposed to mean: God and the control of his people.
What kind of control is this? People want to have control over people. So does God want to have control over people too? If he lets go of Armageddon then he will gain some control over events. But I don't think he will ever have control over people.  

7 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Can you expand on your thought here? Since there has been a witness to Jehovah's support by visible deeds, there has been a witness of Jehovah throughout man's existence. Would that exclude or prevent a church from being acquired for  God's namesake? What would be determinantal is, if people within that institution defile that church of God's namesake for their own selfish reasons.

Therefore, are you debating if a church or institution shouldn't use the name Jehovah's Witnesses.

I am just saying that it was in the past and today there are people who can be considered Witnesses for YHVH, and whose status before God is their own or our interpretation.

6 hours ago, Dmitar said:

I will use the words of Pearl Doxsey. If there needs to be a clarification after my thought, then please do so.

This society did not become the central authority of the Bible Student movement. It could not because all cooperating congregations of Bible Students held strictly to congregational self-government. The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society was basically a publishing house and lecture bureau".

Are you referring to now or then? After 1931. The organization moved to a different bible understanding, from the Bible Student's core doctrine. Even before Pastor Russell's death, a transition had started. Therefore, when you state, "the charters give the impression that WTBTS wants to be a spiritual beacon to people" then you have to break it down to what point in time.

In the Bible Students era, the churches were that beacon. For the most part of the Bible Student era, The Watchtower was "just" a publishing house, regardless how hard revisionist attempt to claim otherwise. That's their bad report truth.

If we believe that people are sincere in their intentions, at least in the beginning of their activities, then we can believe in the good intentions of Russell and the then Autonomous Assemblies. I suppose the “movement” begins in a way that the people within it have a more liberal position.

Than when the “movement” ceases to be a mere movement against the established Church institution that led to the gathering of people in the Bible Students formation.

In time, it became clear that these independent groups of people should be kept together, in a uniform manner, if they wanted to maintain the specific direction. On the other hand, this uniformity and striving for unity easily becomes institutionalized and organized like those of other institutions that caused the BS Movement to emerge. 

The existence of a class of elders (and an extra class of FDS with its Helpers) and those who are not, in today’s JW assemblies has brought WTJWorg closer to the Catholic Church hierarchy against which JW preaches. A Catholic priest talks about hell, and a JW priest talks about Armageddon. Theology differs but the authoritative position of both is the same. 

An administrative breakpoint could be found, and you mentioned some date about it.  The breaking point is just the culmination of the onset of dissatisfaction in people who worked on making change happen in a period of time before the change was announced in public. WTBTS continued to make administrative changes after Rutherford. 

11 hours ago, Dmitar said:

However, I wasn't aware. @Srecko Sostarneeded a handler, and he is unable to speak for himself like a child. I was unaware of your conditions here. I didn't know Jehovah's Witnesses "defend" former members that disparage this institution by intentional bad reports. You can continue with your quarrelsome endeavor like a boss, just not mine.

You should not react like that to the "defeat" you have experienced. @JW Insider defends the facts, not me. But I am glad that he understood my comments and found time to find excerpts from the WT literature that indicate the thing we were talking about.

14 hours ago, Thinking said:

….but I dont know that we have ever said we do not beleive what Bible students once believed…??

Apologize, but it doesn't even need to be said in such clear words.

It is enough to observe a change in doctrines so it can easily be concluded that JWs do not believe in many things that were an integral part of the beliefs of their predecessors (no matter of their name). In any period of time from the first apostles of Jesus to the present day. (
Moreover, JWs do not even believe in those doctrines that have recently been an integral part of “true worship” (I’m talking about periods from a few months to a few years back, even not need to go in past decades). Jesus ’apostles expected the establishment of the Kingdom durin their lifetime. JWs today claim they (apostles) had the wrong expectations. So JW today reject, apostolic, their then faith, their belief system on the matter).

Keep in mind one more thing about this issue, please nicely. Has it ever been said in WTJWorg literature in the last 50 or more years that “new light” came into the world because JW believed that “old light” was a false teaching? But the JWs stopped believing in “their own old light” (not only in the "light" of Bible Students).

So if JWs are willing to reject, to stop believing in their own "biblically established beliefs" then it will be even easier for them to abandon the beliefs of Bible Students.

Simple.

15 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Do you agree with @Srecko Sostar that Jehovah Witnesses celebrated Christmas?

If we start from a simple formula in which today's JWs claim that YHVH has always had its Witnesses on this planet, which we can call Jehovah's Witnesses or Witnesses for Jehovah or otherwise, then Yes, one type of Jehovah's Witnesses celebrated Christmas at a time in the past.

If one wants to deny this, then one should make some facts or provable claims that could mark a certain group of people (Christians in last 20 centuries period) like/such as the Bible Students, that they can in no way be Witnesses for the true God  YHVH.

22 hours ago, Dmitar said:

You seem to forget, the WTBTS was just a publishing company, that later was incorporated.

Although I have not read in detail every Charter that has been published by WTBTS, from what I have observed in these texts, there is little more than just the printing business itself. The charters give the impression that WTBTS wants to be a spiritual beacon for people. 

17 hours ago, Dmitar said:

all Bible Students were "independent" of each other.

Independence ended with the arrival of Rutherford. 

Also keep in mind that in my comments on Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses, I have always had in mind one common link that has always connected them, regardless of the individuals who have later sided with this or that schism. Continuity of WTBTS.

All those who remained faithful to their "spiritual mother", the so-called "earthly organization" or WTBTS Company, regardless of changes in external name / label are proof that all beliefs, past or present, are what binds them together. They have common legacy.

That’s why the claim how JWs once celebrated Christmas is correct. Because today's JWs who do not celebrate Christmas any more are members of the same Organization under whose auspices and authority Christmas was celebrated in the past. Today’s JWs can defend themselves by claiming that they do not believe what Bible Students once believed, and that therefore it is not their past and legacy. But such a claim is completely incorrect. Because both, former and current believers, are members, they are followers of one and the same Corporation that has the legal continuity.

11 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

The framework started with Rutherford. The Bible Students as indicated by the above comment was rejected by them.

And Rutherford was not JW as you stated before.

What was Rutherford religious pedigree? Bible Student, I guess. ... or just lawyer of his deceased boss who established WT, Mr Russell?  

11 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

Separation was created by differences in theology.

Whose theology was accepted by Jesus and YHVH in 1919? The theology of Bible students or theology of Jehovah's Witnesses that, officially, not existed in 1919?

18 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

By Ronald R. Day, Sr.

It is often stated that the Bible Students became Jehovah's Witnesses.

Without going into the validity of the statement, it can be argued as follows:

1) Some Bible students became Jehovah's Witnesses.
2) Jehovah's Witnesses were created by their separation from Bible students                                                 3) Dissatisfied Bible students formed the Fifth Column and took control of the administration with the intention of changing the name of the movement, in the future, to a new name, Jehovah's Witnesses.

lol

11 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

Bible Students splintered

If this scheme is correct, schisms are a normal occurrence in the lives of these Christians. Even more, it started in the 1st century!
The question of schism does not affect the facts set forth before. Try something else, please.  

24 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

The Theology of Jehovah Witnesses was refined dramatically.

According to official statements in WTJWorg publications, they were "Refined"  in 1919 under name Bible Students and "recognized" by Jesus and JHVH as only true organization that was not part of "Babylon the Great". :))

JW members, or in fact GB as Main Ecclesiastical Body for all JW members, draws its inviolable spiritual position from that date. Continue to be persistent, but readers will see that your claims are weak.  

51 minutes ago, Witness said:

But...in 1919, the "Brothers" were refined from false religion and its practices.  David Splane said 1919 was when the  “testing and refinement of God’s people foretold at Mal 3:1-4, was complete, and that Babylon the Great "fell" that year.  

But, not completely, apparently.  How did Jesus let this practice of a "pagan celebration" that "focuses on pleasures", and "idol worship", slip by for 28 more years?

That is an indisputable fact.

It is also undeniable that the claims and theology of former and current JW leaders show that they are part of a general religious confusion. 

26 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

celebrating Christmas

Bible Students are spiritual brothers of Jehovah's Witnesses, their predecessors in same "Organization". 

quote:

The article “The Origin of Christmas,” in The Golden Age of December 14, 1927, noted that Christmas is a pagan celebration, focuses on pleasures, and involves idol worship. The article made it clear that the celebration was not ordered by Christ and concluded with this pointed statement about Christmas: “The fact that the world, the flesh, and the Devil are in favor of its perpetuation and observance . . . is a final and conclusive argument against its celebration by those who are dedicated wholly to the service of Jehovah.” Not surprisingly, the Bethel family did not celebrate Christmas that December—or ever again! 

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/pc/r1/lp-e/1200277174/47/0

47 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

When WTJWorg teaches “overlapping generation”, today, it is part of the "present spirituality" of WTJWorg and every JW member. Believing in delusion is also “spirituality,” right? On the other hand, you want to convince us that believing in an absurd thesis is Jesus ’path of salvation. 

This projection gives me the impression you don't believe Jesus is the pathway to salvation. That is something you will have to decide.

Please nice, what is my projection here?

6 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

What does blood fractions have to do with "whole" blood?

Same question i ask myself.  

2 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

What does blood fractions have to do with "whole" blood? If one looks hard enough, the evidence is there. You have not given me a prime example of the WTJWorg celebrating Christmas, or have we moved on to another topic?

Be patient, please. I said i will give you evidence. I have to work, be busy, with your many words.  

34 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

However, how are the spiritual leaders from your former institution to be considered the only ones to manipulate the context of scripture, when there is ample evidence to consider all religions by your standard, including the 4woman group.

When and where did I say that GBs are the only ones religious manipulators?