Srecko Sostar

29 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

This projection gives me the impression you don't believe Jesus is the pathway to salvation. That is something you will have to decide.

Projection you made and verbalized.    Clumsy turning and juggling words. It only works for inattentive readers of comments.

25 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

Can you give me a biblical text where Jesus stipulated Christians should honor those traditions?

It's like looking for evidence in the Bible that speaks for or against blood fractions. :))

Christians like JW should know that the Bible book does not answer every question.

2 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

But as we focus here on religious spirituality, then it is important to reiterate that spirituality can be good and bad. What was the spirituality like when WTJWorg celebrated Christmas, for example among so many other examples?

You are correct. We are discussing the implementation of Christianity by Christ. Can you give me a prime example, "when WTJWorg celebrated Christmas? 

10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Today, WTJWorg would say that it was a time when "they did not understand Bible principles accurately." 

You have me at a lost. Can you give me a prime example when you believe the WTJWorg celebrated Christmas and then found out they were mistaken?

Sorry if I confused you. I assumed you are a JW member who could and should know that today’s "WTJWorg"  is the legal successor of the ZWTTS to WTBTSP (Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society, 1881, renamed (incorporated) to Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, 1884) from the time of Russell and then Rutherford. Of course changing in name continued with more sister companies from then to now.

My internal label of this organization is WTJWorg, it is my own abbreviation that I most often use in communication on this forum or elsewhere where I sometimes leave my comment. In order to correct the administrative inaccuracy of the name of the same organization (for purpose to your clear understanding of given comment), I will find a time-historical fact about celebrating Christmas and publish it in the following comment. Thank you for your patience.

7 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Are you referring to other religions or Christianity?

Jesus began Christianity as a path to one's own personal salvation. Jesus paid a heavy price to include everyone that would accept his sacrifice and repent. Can you give me an example of what other religion promotes the same theology? Now, how do you believe the 4woman group is promoting spirituality with weakness and not implementing scripture correctly?

That doesn't answer my question, but rather gives room for more questions.

I am of the opinion that spirituality is not something that is related only to religion. That quality is part of other life activities, too.
But as we focus here on religious spirituality, then it is important to reiterate that spirituality can be good and bad. What was the spirituality like when WTJWorg celebrated Christmas, for example among so many other examples? Today, WTJWorg would say that it was a time when "they did not understand Bible principles accurately."  What was their spirituality like at the time? What was wrong? Celebrate Jesus ’birthday or celebrate it on the wrong date? But, from the aspect of that period, celebrating Jesus in that way was proof that WTJWorg has "spirituality", right? Today, WTJWorg would say that celebrating Jesus ’birthday is a pagan custom. The conclusion is self-evident; The origin of the spirituality of the religion that celebrates Jesus ’birthday is “pagan spirituality”.

When WTJWorg teaches “overlapping generation”, today, it is part of the "present spirituality" of WTJWorg and every JW member. Believing in delusion is also “spirituality,” right? On the other hand, you want to convince us that believing in an absurd thesis is Jesus ’path of salvation. 

7 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Did I? Can you explain how manipulating the context of other people's words is a good perspective? How does this view dismiss your challenge toward God? 

Religious leaders manipulate with the context and single verse of the Bible. And people who believe in it and actively preach delusions are the disciples of their teachers.

18 hours ago, Dmitar said:

This would be your projection of this institution. How did the apostles convey their spirituality if it didn't come directly from God? 

How about not making assumptions to the visitor with your personal animosity.

Are you explaining to the public, people like Pearl Doxsey convey the 4woman spirituality through their blogs?

Can it be said, that the Pope is conveying his spirituality through the Vatican as a single man?

So please, can spirituality be found only in religion and religious ideology / theology?

The correct answer to this question also answers the others you ask. 

18 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Would this be more projection for unwilling to understand the words of a spiritual leader?

Not. It just means that the listener realizes how much delusion there is in Samuel Herd’s spirituality.

18 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Can you explain to the visitor, who gave you the power to challenge God?

So you're saying the confrontation with Samuel Herd and GB is a confrontation with God personally? How far you are ready to go with such perspective?

19 hours ago, Witness said:

Wt 13/1/15 pg 27-31 “Rather than making rigid rules for the congregation, ELDERS rely on Scriptural principles and direction from Jehovah’s organization.

It is interesting to note here that "scriptural principles" are mentioned. How can principles be drawn from a Bible passage or passage? In many ways. But, the "only correct" way is for the elders to explain it to you, because a layman can make a wrong conclusion if he/she read the Bible by himself/herself, right? :))

Now, who explains to the elders what the principles are? Well, it is clear that this can only come from "Jehovah's organization", they say in WTJWorg. What is "Jehovah's Organization"? In this context, but also in most other contexts, it is the Supreme Church Body aka GB. 

Of course we have Samuel Herd, one of GB Director who recently argues/claims that YHVH does not always/many times allow GB to see the meaning of what is written in the Bible, no matter how much they reading and praying for illumination. 

How many years does it take for YHVH to "allow proper understanding" as they say? And what should be called “inappropriate/wrong understanding,” which in the meantime governs decisions based on “unbiblical principles”? 

Some representatives of several JW stream/tendency on this forum, such as @Dmitar, forget that their principles are influenced by WTJWorg unprincipledness.

On 1/7/2022 at 8:03 AM, Dmitar said:

The same outcome could be said and applied to your influence, and it should be guarded against, then.

Of course. But because of our mutual disagreement, I will not stop greeting you if we meet on the street.

On 1/7/2022 at 8:03 AM, Dmitar said:

There are several Religious forums here. I have not seen you post on those Christian forums. Just because this forum stipulates JW open forum should not be an excuse to vilify just one institution. If your problem is with Christianity, then treat all Christian institutions the same, here or anywhere where your animosity is projected.

3 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Enjoy your day by having a peaceful one.

Thanks, you too.

10 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Remember, this is your interpretation? Not facts entered by that institution's overall actions of wanting to apply Jesus first century teachings. You are the one calling the shots by judgement on what you believe God has dismissed.

Yet, you don't apply these same principles to other Christian religions, why?

An institution that, in an attempt to find out what Jesus meant when he said this or that, gives and imposes its own interpretations, is more dangerous than an individual who believes that such an institution is unreliable and that its influence should be guarded against.
This is the JW Open Club and that’s why we only deal with them. Same principles are useful/applicable to scan other religions too.

10 hours ago, Dmitar said:

An institution is there to fortify a "gathering" of Christians in unity by their church. What kind of disaster do you believe the first century churches had that lead to their disappointment in Christ and the apostles?

There is not much to speculate about. These are people like us. And we are like them. So choose whatever you want. We have similar or the same situations that can be easily imagined.

10 hours ago, Dmitar said:

eternal life

Experience shows that even people who believe in eternal life are not able to successfully lead / live their own short life, here and today. They wander in their imaginations about future eternal life believing it to be God’s will.
What do you think their eternal wandering under the supervision of today’s religious leaders would look like?

13 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

Did Jesus decide or did Judas decide to betray Jesus? Jesus saw the good in him, Judas decided to accept the dark side. Do you want to blame Jesus for Judas betrayal, just like you want to blame structured institutions?

Thanks for the explanation. So the logic would be this: Jesus chose a certain structure in people who call themselves Christians, e.g. WTJWorg, because at the time of their appointment they were the best candidates. After a while, these people and their associates after them chose to interpret the Bible as they wished. Are they still appointed or dismissed?

18 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

the institution you refer to, appoint, not elect their spiritual leaders.

Result is the same, whatever words you choose to use.

20 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

We all have to obey something, one way or another.

True.

21 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

The difference is, within spirituality, you're pleasing God while gaining salvation.

The spirituality you associate with devotion to the Organization is a recipe for disaster, or at least disappointments. Because the Organization is made up, in the context of WTJWorg, of the people who govern, rule the spirituality of the members. Such a thing is not a request of God but of those who claim to “represent” God.

25 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

Can a government or a false religion set you in that path of salvation? 

Yes, when they give you a warning of an impending tsunami or hurricane etc.

1 hour ago, Dmitar said:

The simple answer, look closely at your post. Did Jesus not decide who the apostles were going to be?

Would that mean that Jesus decided that Judas should be an apostle-traitor?

1 hour ago, Dmitar said:

Also, the institution you are referring to, doesn't elect their spiritual leaders, they get appointed.

All the processes within this actions ( have one outcome - someone is in a position above the layman.

8 hours ago, Dmitar said:

To what end are you referring? Did Jesus hold his miracles in secret? How about the apostles? They were full of God's Holy Spirit. But, we don't have Jesus and the apostles to literally show us the power of God's grace. What do we have instead?

Elders (1:5–9)

The first subject of this letter provided Titus with instructions concerning church leaders. Verse 5 states Titus’s task, and the following verses in the paragraph identify the character qualities needed in the new leaders.

Titus was to appoint leaders in every place where there was a group of believers. Probably the entire congregation selected these leaders with the encouragement of Titus. He had the official responsibility, as a representative of Paul, to appoint them to office.

How can you qualify an "overseer" as?

From what has been written, I conclude that everyone in that "group of believers" was full of the Holy Spirit, not just those with some or specific titles (elder, priest, missioner, CO, GB and similar). If all and every members of the congregation were full of spirit, so they chose some for a some task, why should I or anyone else conclude that a few elected have become a body that has the power to decide what is true and what is false?

1 hour ago, Dmitar said:

My question to you was in, how the HS would work in people that don't believe in a heavenly creator, since you believe everyone is deserving of it, not just Christians.

That must be some sort of "holy secret".

23 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

Does this mean that Buddhism, Hinduism, Satanism, Wicca, etc. are representatives of God? You would be correct, we are all children of God. Do those children behave or believe they are?

If a child of God is an atheist, wouldn't a Christian representative that does believe in God be a better person in the eyes of God?

I do not know the details of their hierarchy and theology on this issue. How members of other religions feel before God should be learned from themselves.

If we accept the fact that God is the Creator of men, then He is also their Father. 

44 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

This would suggest you have a problem with titles. Do you think Jesus was wrong to give the "apostles" their title of apostles? Do you believe, Jesus had an issue with the ecclesiastical bodies titles of his time? The Pharisees, Sadducee's, and any other school of thought?

To my knowledge, Jesus did not establish a system of titles. In fact, he told his followers, "you are all brothers."

Remind me where Jesus appointed his first followers to receive the title of "apostles"?

From the day of his baptism to the rest of his life, Jesus had a problem with the established system in the hierarchy of the Jewish system. When using their titles, he used existing words that signified the established hierarchy of the people of that time. Jesus did not grant anyone any title or status. That already existed. Or the terminology used today was established after his death.

1 hour ago, Dmitar said:

Is Christ representative of Christianity or Judaism? Therefore, how would the Holy Spirit guide the sort of people that are into  Buddhism, Hinduism, Satanism, Wicca, etc.? Hindus believe in "reincarnation" of the soul. How would the HS flow in an animal, or plant? Buddhist believe in the "rebirth" of man. Rebirth is the sense, the soul never dies but is recycled within itself. 

How about people that identify themselves as Judeo-Christian. Can the HS guide those that align themselves to a tradition that was revised by Christ himself? 

Why do you worry about what HS can or can’t do?  

5 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Can you explain your stance here, since all Christians are representative of God?

I have nothing against the idea that all people, not just Christians, should be "representatives" of God. Whatever anyone thought of the meaning of the word “representative”. But I think it would be more appropriate for all people to be “children of God”. This with the word "representative" immediately creates a caste that thinks they are better and more important than others.

5 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Won't the same question apply to the Ecclesiastical Body under Christ? Shouldn't all Christina's by guided by God's Holy Spirit? Why do you believe, it should be different to that particular body? Wouldn't "witness" and the 4 women be considered the same way, then?

I don't believe in GB concept, in the same way as with any other religious group or individuals. HS is in possibility/able to "guide" all sort of people, not exclusively "Christians".

5 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Why do you believe Jesus didn't revise the laws of the Jews that didn't conform to canonical law? Wasn't that the reason, why certain ecclesiastical bodies joined together in order to condemn, and prosecute Jesus?

These are interesting questions. 

1 hour ago, Dmitar said:

Thank you for being civil with your answers. Can we agree this would be left up to the interpreter? As you stated, "it's kind of" which would mean, a revision can also be interpreted as "increased knowledge" on a subject.

You forget the fact that religious leaders like to see themselves as God's representatives and as the only ones who know how to understand God's words.

In light of this fact, which you forgot for some inexplicable reason, WTJWorg and their Main Ecclesiastical Body constantly claim to be “guided by HS”, or in other words, that the all and every interpretations presented by them, came from God.

With this clarity of the real situation, the term “revision” or "increased knowledge" takes on a real meaning. For it is hard to believe that God would have been the one to revise his own “dogma”. It, "revisions", is the product of manipulators who are at the forefront of religion.

2 hours ago, Dmitar said:

I am always willing to listen. Private chat, email, etc. Don't be influenced by the negativity this place has to offer

Thanks but No. I don't belong to your "flock"  

4 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

Does any revision from the 60s to the present be considered contradictory to those that twist their application of it? How do you find other religions, such as the Berean Bible Society, that has similar thoughts on scripture?

Revisions are a kind of contradiction. Take, for example, interpretations of "generation." Each new "revision" is contrary to the previous interpretation. So they are all contradictory to each other.

I am not interested in other religions, because all religions are the same. They want to have power over people. The conversation about this religion stems from only one fact. I used to be a member of this religion. I'm not anymore. This is just a part of mental / spiritual gymnastics, then certain types of loneliness and lack of interest in socializing with people who have a different history. There are probably some other reasons, but who will understand all this :).

46 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Here is another strange thought. They say that satan is a spiritual creature and therefore cannot act on the physical world !?

quote continue: , but he will use human agencies to do his deeds.

Can you explain your contradictory statement? It is a strange thought, since a Thinking Christian understands there were Nephilim's on earth after having relations with the daughters of man. Genesis 6:1-4

What point in time are you referring to, and in what sense can Satan not influence man or his earthly agencies?
16:17-20

To conclude this warning Paul added the promise, The God of peace (cf. 15:33; Heb 13:20) will soon crush Satan under your feet (cf. Gen 3:15). The false teachers (Rom 16:17-18) were under Satan's influence, but he will be destroyed and God will establish peace (Rev 20:1-6). Then Paul gave another benediction (cf. Rom 15:13,33) about God's grace. (See the chart, "Paul's Concluding Benedictions in His Epistles.") 

WTJWorg have contradictory statements, not me.  Please, read quotes from WT magazines provided in previous comments, of which I used just one quote to show discrepancy and contradiction.

50 minutes ago, Witness said:

"Gog of Magog is identified as Satan the Devil in his debased position since 1914. As a spirit creature, he cannot carry out his attack directly, but he will use human agencies to do his deeds. Who will these human agencies be? The Bible does not give us details, yet it does give us certain indications that can help us to identify who they will be."  w03 6/1 p. 20-21

Here is another strange thought. They say that satan is a spiritual creature and therefore cannot act on the physical world !?

quote continue: , but he will use human agencies to do his deeds.

Such a statement nullifies any possibility that Jesus and the angels will execute a "final judgment" on "evil men" aka "goats." According to Bible interpretations of WTJWorg Jesus and angels are "spiritual creatures" too, and they as such also belongs to ..... as a spirit creature/s, he/they cannot carry out his/their attack directly .....

The WT text suggests that spiritual forces (evil and good) actually influence people to perform some action for the benefit of the spirit world. So let's put it this way; satan and demons will inspire one evil group of people against another evil group of people to destroy each other. For what purpose? How would only JW members remain? Who then will attack the JW, because that is how the JW preaches? Gog from Magog, say JW. But Gog of Magog are united evil people / nations (human agencies, as they named them) ..... who have already destroyed each other.  Even before the "last attack" on JW.

Moreover, if according to such an interpretation, angels cannot physically act on the literal world, then they never could, so the biblical accounts of such events in the past are fiction.

Therefore, this "outdated" interpretation of Gog and Magog also promotes another idea/interpretation that has not been so pronounced so far, at least not visible to me, in which they claims; "Angels are not able to physically act on people."

Picture and quote, for example this one, is contradiction then.

Jesus and his heavenly army will soon ride into the war of Armageddon to destroy God’s enemies! (See paragraph 17)

- https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-study-october-2019/stay-faithful-through-great-tribulation/

I just realized how i comment about this topic on another topic about same issue. Let me copy/paste the same comment.

---------------------------------

Suicide in the ancient world did not carry the same negative connotations as it does today. Even bible text nowhere said how suicide is a sin or forbidden by Law. The biblical attitude toward suicide ranges from ambivalence to praise. Never made Judgmental statement against those who done that act of self-destruction. 

-Abimelech came to the tower, and fought against it, and came near to the entrance of the tower to burn it with fire. But a certain woman threw an upper millstone on Abimelech's head, and crushed his skull. Immediately he called to the young man who carried his armor and said to him, “Draw your sword and kill me, so people will not say about me, ‘A woman killed him.’ ” So the young man thrust him through, and he died.

-the counselor Ahithophel hanged himself                                                                                                                                                                                            When Ahithophel saw that his counsel was not followed, he saddled his donkey and went off home to his own city. He set his house in order, and hanged himself; he died and was buried in the tomb of his father.

-Zimri, King of Israel, burned down his house around himself after military defeat.                                                                                                            When Zimri saw that the city was taken, he went into the citadel of the royal palace and set the palace on fire around him. So he died,

-Saul and his armor-bearer                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Then Saul said to his armor-bearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it, so that these uncircumcised may not come and make sport of me. But his armor-bearer was unwilling, for he was terrified. So Saul took his own sword and fell on it. When his armor-bearer saw that Saul was dead, he also fell on his sword and died. Thus Saul died; he and his three sons and all his house died together

-Samson                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Then Samson prayed to the Lord,“Sovereign Lord, remember me. Please, God, strengthen me just once more, and let me with one blow get revenge on the Philistines for my two eyes.... Samson said, “Let me die with the Philistines!” Then he pushed with all his might, and down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. Thus he killed many more when he died than while he lived.

-even Judas suicide is an act of remorse, deep regret. According to JW elders instruction, he gave visible, strong signs of repentance :))      When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood

@Patiently waiting for Truth

Greeting.  
In your last comment, by mistake two Thinking's comments are presented under my name.

4 hours ago, Thinking said:

On 11/14/2019 at 7:52 PM, DespicableME said:

This is a spot on characterization here, that's also my opinion.

Something like Aaron making the golden calf because the people told him to make that false idol, just because Moses was taking to long to return. I forget, what happened to those people?

I would say, how can we draw a parallel from the characters of Moses and Aaron. WTJWorg is considered the successor of all of God’s organizations that have emerged throughout history, to use their logic. Noah's Ark = God's Organization, Nation Israel = God's Organization, First Assembly = God's Organization, WTBTS = God's Organization.
However, each of the above had "Earth Representatives", so Moses would be the archetype of GB, and Aaron would be the representative of today's Helpers.
Both of today’s classes at WTJWorg feel that they are inspired (guided) by God and that their instructions should be followed without discussion.
As with Moses and Aaron, who made compromises to please the people, so today’s religious leaders are making changes in theology and practice. Sometimes they are a relief to the people, and sometimes an additional burden.
So, enough about the alleged "spirit guidance". Because the comment provided by Thinking proves this setting or thesis.

4 hours ago, Thinking said:

Rubbish….what you have here are witnesses who do not worship the GB and can think for them selves yet still respect the GB in promoting and getting the basic plan that Jehovah’s has for the world out to the people.

They make mistakes and some big ones at that…the disfellowshlpment over organ transplanting is one of them….

They make mistakes just like any other ancient Godly men of old…just like King David did….just like Moses did…just like Peter did….

we just do not panic and flee when we see these errors…something may stump us or rattle us…but maturity and understanding that Jehovah uses faulty men aids many of us to stay with in the camp boundaries…at that time we would not have hung around the mob that demanded the building of the golden calf…..as tempting as it may have been when one is in panic mode which is what they did.

Im in..and mentally in as well…but I have always seen the GB down thru the ages are mere men who do make mistakes and are not actually inspired…so I and many others act like the beroeans did and check with the scriptures first …

As to what happened to those that followed Aaron with the making of the golden calf….When Moses came back…he still gave them an option of standing beside him…before he ( Jehovah /Jesus) destroyed the rest who did not take him up on that offer….around 3,000 were destroyed…not a huge number compared to the millions that came out.

That is a lesson for all witnesses today…not to leave the camp because of trouble with in it even if that trouble comes from someone as high up as the second man in charge as Arron was…..actually the first man in charge whilst Moses was absent…..a thought to ponder on…

I’m not saying that there are not witnesses who do exactly as the GB always directs thinking it comes directly from Jehovah…because there are…but there are many who sit and listen and work things out for them selves…as we have here on this site….

Like other leaders of the people, GB and Helpers = Administration, monitor the beats and pulse of their people. When the pressure in the “body” of the assembly becomes too high something must be done. In other words, there are changes in interpretations. You who are permanent members of the JW Assembly are better informed about the new changes, bigger and smaller. Sometimes they have to come because of changes in the “outside world,” and most come because of internal events.

It is unfortunate that you, JW members, who see the reality within WTJWorg, are still trying to defend what is indefensible. Because if a certain theology still lives in WTJWorg, and you are willing to support and defend it, how will you feel when it is changed, and you knew something was wrong?

Some of you are already resisting the "nonsense" that comes from GB, while at the same time you are watching some of your spiritual brothers and sisters stumble under the burden of theology that you are aware has failed. ............. Don't you feel sad? Don't you want to help them not be afraid of man?

4 hours ago, Witness said:

33 "The one who has accepted his testimony has affirmed that God is true. 34 For the one whom God sent speaks God’s words, since He gives the Spirit without measure. "

Eph 2:17,18 - "He came and proclaimed the good news of peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near.  For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father."

1 Cor 12:4-11 - Now there are different gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are different ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are different activities, but the same God works all of them in each person. 7 A manifestation of the Spirit is given to each person for the common good: 8 to one is given a message of wisdom through the Spirit, to another, a message of knowledge by the same Spirit, 9 to another, faith by the same Spirit, to another, gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another, the performing of miracles, to another, prophecy, to another, distinguishing between spirits, to another, different kinds of tongues,[b] to another, interpretation of tongues. 11 One and the same Spirit is active in all these, distributing to each person as he wills."

 

 

 I and the Father are one. - john 10:30

1 hour ago, Dmitar said:

How can you. Do you need to be rude an obnoxious that you can't control your false tongue?

Word "stupid" is under quotation marks. Because of that nothing is rude and obnoxious in my "false tongue".  

7 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

 Can you give me a biblical text where the apostles turned into cannibals, for the sake of Jesus?

How can you ask me such "stupid" question. TTH mentioned Jesus ’words in which he invites people around him to eat his body and drink his blood. I only expanded the possibility that the apostles and other followers repeated Jesus ’words in front of other people. If they were “rigid” in preaching such “religious teachings,” my conclusion was in the commentary. So I really don’t understand how you don’t understand the context within which my remark is.