Srecko Sostar

32 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

I only brought up Communisms and Marxism only, hence CCP. You brought up Capitalisms and trying to equate it to the latter.

What is capitalism without communism, and vice versa? Both ideologies need their own enemy. And they found it in the other one.
Some say that Jesus was the “first communist” because he aspired to general equality (“you are all brothers”) and the abolition of all ideologies that oppress the weaker. 

As i understand "christian ideology", presented by WTJWorg and JW elders, they think how both ideologies, communism and capitalism are enemies of God and True Christianity aka JW members. So, in their eyes they are equal. 

Again, both ideologies need own enemy to feed their "bellies" and to seduce people. Similar as with religions. 

9 hours ago, xero said:

"No weapon formed against you will have any success, ............

I would be interested in the interpretation of the JW member, you, what kind of "weapon" is this? 

Weapons in the form of persecution, imprisonment and killing?
Weapons in the form of a state's legislation?
Weapons in the form of doctrinal delusion?
Or something else?

3 hours ago, xero said:

You aren't thinking clearly or parsing my words properly if you for a moment imagined I was trying to prove anything.

I do not see your comment as an attempt to prove anything, but as a claim/statement that was directed against @Patiently waiting for Truthway of thinking and feeling.

55 minutes ago, xero said:

I don't have sympathy or empathy for loud mouthed bellyacher's who have to keep whining on and on about stuff like somehow Jehovah screwed up because the world isn't perfect and they stubbed their toe. 

And what does that prove? JW members have been preaching the same things for decades, when they claim that satan and Adam and Eve are to blame for all the evil. But then they go further and say that we are to blame ourselves for the bad things that happen to us. What is it but constant repetition of the same thing?

1 hour ago, xero said:

Michael Mahoney in his book "Self Change" nailed it when he pointed out that ALL PERSONAL PROBLEMS ARE CURRENT. Things that happened years ago only have influence if you keep these things alive. You are working hard at keeping it alive. Stop picking at your scabs.

Yes, we are the ones who can bury the past or keep it alive. But it has been proven that the past repeats (in general) itself over and over again. Good and evil is the everyday of our lives as it is of all generations before us. 

Isabella can benefit from your comment, because it answers her question in a way that what she is talking about was just a current problem, and that there is no need to worry about it after so many decades.  

@Equivocation Our friend SM introduced Capitalism and Communism into this topic :)) Don't ask me.

2 hours ago, Pudgy said:

sometimes the mission is more important than ones' indignation.

I like your view. But have to ask what is the mission of WTJWorg?  

26 minutes ago, xero said:

Now this is my faith, and I take it as true and consistent with what I know about Jehovah.

Your statement is beautifully uttered, but it cannot confirm that your knowledge and belief, in the form you practice, is true or false. It is your personal experience, personal conclusion and personal opinion. As such, it can be tested and verified and accepted or rejected, not only by people (in general) but also by the God you believe in.

51 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Although Christians follow the land of these lands, they will never partake in anything associated with and or pertaining to Communism.

Can it be concluded from this statement that Christians are less bothered by Capitalism, and that they would rather be Christians in capitalist countries than in communist ones?

That is, that the Capitalist ideology is closer to Christianity than the Communist ideology? :)) 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It doesn’t mean God takes away their free will and right to choose. It doesn’t mean he makes them automatons. It doesn’t mean that what is within the human realm cannot be tainted by the human.

GB requests and expects, from the members, that unconditional trust and obedience be given to them and to JW elders. Despite the fact that TTH has stated that everything can be corrupted (tainted by human).

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

They are “appointed by holy spirit” in that (1) the qualifications are laid out in scripture, (2) they are judged to have met those qualifications by experienced overseers who have measured up to those qualifications themselves, after (3) prayerful consideration and consultation. That’s all the expression means. That’s all it has ever meant. 

It is theoretically beautiful and poetically enchanting. And only that, nothing else.

So the question is, do you TTH and every other JW, allow an ordinary JW to have a critical appraisal of GB and elders and their ideas and decisions?

1 hour ago, Isabella said:

Who appointed these men as elders or ministerial servants?

All appointments to various positions and services in the WTJWorg organization are made by people. Every appointment and every removal from the appointment is done by people. I hope this "clarification" will answer your questions about topic.

4 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

looks like im walking freely about  in a den of snakes no less

The symbolism used by the Bible with the animal world is interesting. The same species of animal has two opposite characteristics.

Eg. Satan is referred to as the "roaring lion," but the positive characters in the biblical text are also compared to the "lion."

The “serpent” is a symbol for Satan, but the “serpent” was the savior for all those Israelites who looked at the bronze serpent idol that Moses placed at God’s command.

12 hours ago, Witness said:

Wt 2019/10/5 page 5 – “By the end of 1919, Jehovah’s people were reorganized and energized. Additionally, several important prophecies involving the last days had been fulfilled. The testing and refinement of God’s people, foretold at Malachi 3:1-4, was complete.”

What were those prophecies fulfilled?

"Jehovah’s people had been released from their symbolic captivity to 'Babylon the Great,' and Jesus had appointed  'the faithful and discreet slave.'

The statement from the quoted WT article is very clear and specific. But still it is not strong enough to refute reality. And not just the reality of 1919 and the years after. This article from WT was written, as far as I can see, in 2019. Despite the fact that the entire past of WTJWorg is better seen from 2019, the author unfortunately maintains that Jesus purified WTJWorg in those 5 years, and that he left a pure organization for the future. That future encompasses the present. And what is the present? The present argues that most of WTJWorg’s doctrine and theology, as well as the practice that results from the theoretical teaching of members, has been affected, and still is, by tremendous changes in “knowledge and truth”.
Several things can be concluded from this:
- that Jesus was not visiting WTJWorg in 1914-1919
-that Jesus did a bad job or had bad disciples
-that WTJWorg subsequently ignored the changes that Jesus made
-that WTJWorg considered the changes of 1914-1919 obsolete and inaccurate and changed them on its own in the coming decades 

If “The testing and refinement of God’s people, foretold at Malachi 3: 1-4, was complete.” in the 1914-1919 period, then the mantra that WTJWorg has been trading for decades (the light is shining more and more clearly) is completely wrong. The light shone, supposedly 1914-1919, from Jesus himself. So what more improvements and clarifications should there be after Jesus ’personal conclusion ??

Lies and only more lies comes from WTJWorg.

Refinement periods .... finishing periods .... periods of training. Who and what needs those periods?

As the title of the topic itself clearly indicates, alleged “improvements” are something that needs, an organization, that is established by people.
Terms like “God’s Word is truth” are often associated with a literal book, and that is the Bible. But it goes on, so the idea is promoted that everything published by WTJWorg is also “God’s Word” or “the truth”.

The “Word of God” is not something that can only be tied to a book, the Bible. First of all, the reason why one should be careful with the Bible itself is the large amount of translations of the Bible that are often a source of misunderstanding for today's man. Not to mention that some translations are often times contradictory to each other and promote a particular ideology of a religious community. It follows that "the truth" is not seen or recognized from the book we calls too as "the Word of God."

So we have two parallel journeys in “refinement”. One embraces the Bible itself as the Word of God, and the other embraces the doctrines and theology of a particular church, in this case WTJWorg.

The questions logically arises: Who claims that "the truth" must undergo "refinement" ??? Why is the "truth" not in itself pure, unquestionable, without a doubt ???
If “truth” needs improvements from people in the 20th and 21st centuries, specifically, from people in WTJWorg, has that kind of “truth” ever been true in the past? Is it today?

WTJWorg connects the term “knowledge of the truth” with the Bible obtained by learning according to WTJWorg theology. Such "knowledge of the truth," they say, leads believers to "eternal life." We see that the WTJWorg “truth” needs to be reworked and modified and re-modeled. But not to make their “truth” become true, but to continue the illusion that this organization is the only one on Earth that knows how to come to a “new truth” and a “new light”. At the same time, the organization counts on the loyalty of the members, because only in that way can it continue with the "wandering in the desert", which is only possible if it continues to be financed with financial contributions from naive and deceived members.

2 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Scientology was established in 1952 by L. Ron Hubbard, a science fiction author, and the Church of Scientology has been acknowledged as a religion in the United States since 1993. Scientology is known for its celebrity followers, such as actors Tom Cruise and John Travolta.

The church has claimed it has 8 million members worldwide, with about a third of those in the U.S., but many critics have suggested there are between 25,000 and 55,000 active Scientologists.

Interesting data on the number of members. Scientology originated later, much later than WTJWorg. And it has the same number of members.., even though they don’t preach the JW way.

15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

chess.com

Thanks for this. I will go to play  

12 hours ago, ApostaBabe Linda James said:

For the most part, we can assume that children say under what I believe to be 12 years old, won't be attending these meetings because they have not been vaccinated for Covid-19. Being vaccinated is part of the requirements as far as showing up at these Kingdom Hall meetings. So unless the age limit changes to a lower age for receiving C-19 vaccinations, we can pretty much assume those 12 and under will not be in attendance at these Kingdom Hall's.

So although I have concern about the members returning to the Kingdom Hall's for their meetings, something's just not right about this whole thing. I my share my concerns later.

Are you familiar with the WTJWorg position on vaccination? Is there agitation on members to vaccinate?
Basically, what you mention, can really be a problem, that smaller children won’t be able to come with their parents. I mean, on the other hand, kids will be spared from some aspects of bad theology from the podium.

4 hours ago, John Houston said:

Why would the wife who has talent with music, not be able to join the choir if she indeed could hold a note? She does not need her husband's permission. Yes, the both can volunteer, she with music, he at laying gypsum boards. That would be the paradise. Not having the female attached at the hip of the male. That concept is misinformation about what scripture teaches. And if that is what you think JW want from their women, then you are very wrong. Yes, their submissive, my wife is too. But you can't tell her that. She goes when and where she wants. So do I. She's a college grad, with degrees, so am I. So this broad brush of  ineptitude of all of us is truly incorrect and demeaning. I have over the 50+ years seen what you are speaking of, but that does not make it Gospel or the way that is right for each and every family. Definitely not mine, I would not hear of it.

Thanks for comment.

I am not able to verify the information. But I have no reason to doubt the source, nor the content itself. Bethel has strict rules of conduct and I would not be surprised if this ending happened. I guess the point is that a married couple doesn’t separate, because maybe each of them would be working on different projects that are in different locations. Maybe they would have different schedules when it came to time, so they couldn't go to preaching, meetings and the like together. So Bethel may be thinking about their "spiritual well-being" and "theocratic routine."
But, I think that it is primarily in these and other things that the wife must follow the husband, and not that the husband follows the wife. This is what we could call as the modern version of patriarchy which is a feature of the Bible and “theocracy,” both those of the past and those of today in WTJWorg. 

After all, few have a talent for singing. And teaching someone to install drywall is easier and more candidates can be found. People will admire more and feel more pleasure when they listen to beautiful songs sung by a talented person. And who will pay special attention to the masonry work as he passes by the walls? Will it really mean anything to him to know the name and face of the workers who did it?

4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

In a sense, JWs will get hit even harder than pervious, granted how high CSA was when COVID-19 began. Reasons why the opportunity to actually educate oneself on CSA is vital while there is time and this time people need to move very carefully, granted the pool of abusers, namely pedophiles, even Ephebophiles (Chrono) is very high this time around, likewise with child on child abuse.

I agree with your prediction you repeated several times on various topics. This only proves that the WTJWorg Administration along with its members is dormant in its self-confidence of living in a “spiritual paradise”. Poor internal communication, poor policies and rules of conduct in critical situations, poor education, in general, and especially for CSA. The fact that they are capable organizers for construction projects and the purchase / sale of real estate is not enough.

5 hours ago, NoisySrecko said:

Friend, I think you can see the parallel in Jesus words he personally spoke of that is recorded in the bible. Perhaps you are thinking of 1914. A specific date not entered in scripture, like 70 CE. Yet through history, we know of an event that happened in 70 CE that is in direct correlation and in harmony with scripture. 

Those who did accept certain warnings in 33 CE were caught off from the Roman destruction. The same can be said in the impending last days Jesus spoke of for a future and last prophecy of the ages.

If we look at Jesus words, and if you wish to subject them as overlapping, then you will find many examples of overlapping generation in scripture. A simple one would be, The generation that had to wait until all that generation that sinned against Jehovah had died out. Which bible base conclusion is that from?

The bible gives us, by faith, there will be a last judgment of humanity. We just need to see the evidence scripture provides us. 1 Corinthians 4:5, Jude 1:7, Luke 18:8, Hebrews 1:1-2, 2 Peter 3:3-4, 1 Timothy 4:1-3, 2 Timothy 3:1-5, Revelation 1:1-7, etc. This is referred to as "collective actions" by humanity. Before, we could hear of some deliverance, but not all at once as it is being witnessed and collected after 1914. Once that can be embedded in our hearts and minds, then the words in Matthew 24:36-44 become a comfort. The collective actions of humanity right now gives us that sequence of events that we are now witnessing. 

Can the faithful turn their backs on that? Definitely not dear friend. While no Christian should force their faith on others, they should be doers, as Jesus once was and is our greatest example of that faith. Brother Russell, welcomed everyone to participate in the study of the bible. 

If you wish to use the term overlapping, then consider how many generations, has been hearing the gospel of Christ since his death, and now many generations after Jesus death has heard the right gospel of Christ. 1 John 2:18

You will get different answers from the same term. However, we can see through scripture, there are many examples of overlapping generations recorded, by the fate of many in the past that is recorded in scripture for our benefit. 

At the very beginning of my comment, I have to notice how intensely you have given down votes to a large number of my comments since your name appeared on the forum. Now for the second time you call me a friend and even more, dear friend. I don’t mind either way of communicating. But friend, let me say a few words about what you wrote.

The example from the desert and the example of Jerusalem have one thing in common when it comes to the time period of these events. Both events culminated in a short period, in just a few decades. As for the people in the desert, the report sets the time at 40 years, and as for Jerusalem, from Jesus ’words uttered in 33 CE to 70 CE, 37 years have passed.

Well we see, when WTJWorg today, draws parallels and interpretations then it has obviously lost sight of the fact that the representative/s of each generation from both examples was/were at the beginning and end of the one and same event. There is no so called "overlap" in WTJWorg sense of meaning. Today’s doctrine of the “overlapping generation” that JWs preach, to themselves for the most part, has gone completely beyond the time frame of the biblical examples you cited. 

Why I emphasized the word today. Because WTJWorg has in the past announced Armageddon within a small number of years (one or two, three decades). Today, with the "overlapping generation", they are trying to get out of his own theology, which they imposed so strongly in the past. But again, they limited themselves in time frame, as it is hard for them to admit that Armageddon may not come for the next 50-100 years either. If they talked about it publicly in that way, they would be left without most of the membership, which is now in the organization. Well, they again limited themselves in time to two overlapping generations. Fortunately for them, the term they invented will give future WTJWorg theologians the opportunity to juggle terminology and a new interpretation for future generations of JW members.

The behavior of humanity does not encourage people to look to the future with hope, we agree. But how far can that go? If God wants to save the innocent and from destroying the planet earth, he does not have to wait for the future. It could have done this many times already in the 20th century.., and not just because of the destruction of the planet. Well, do JWs think God will be motivated by a desire to save planet Earth to start Armageddon? Shouldn't his motive be primarily due to the destruction of human lives that have suffered from powerful people and villains from the ancient past to the present?

7 hours ago, NoisySrecko said:

There has been wars, famine, disease throughout the existence of man. What is the frequency of those events compared to the ones after 1914. I am sure you would agree that in a short span of time, there has been more wars, famine, disease and natural disasters than all past historical events combined. 

I suppose this could be analyzed from more than one aspect, and then some conclusions drawn.

What the JWs are preaching, and you have now repeated, in relation to the above events is that the number and frequency of events is directly related to the prophecy of Jesus and the year 1914. Although, I don’t think anywhere in Jesus ’words can one hear or see that Jesus said and linked the increase in frequency and number of events to prophecy. Jesus did not say a single word that in the future there would be more wars, more diseases, more famines, and the like, than there were in their time.

In fact, it came to an end in their time (70 CE). So, the number of wars, earthquakes, famines and the like remained, i guess, on average during that time (1st century) which he marked "the end of the system of things" .., for the Jews. The End in which "there is no stone left unturned."

How an earthquake occurs. These are the seismic processes that (God) built into planet Earth during creation, during formation. The decrease or increase in the number of earthquakes should be related to the state of the geological processes of the planets, and not to whether people are evil, and therefore they are reached by the prophecy of earthquakes in which they lose their lives. Earthquakes do not take place because people are evil or because people live in the “last days”.

Wars, on the other hand, can be attributed to human character. Poverty and hunger (on global scale) are also often times associated with the decisions of the people who run the states. Because not all people in the world are starving. If everyone in the world were starving, would that be a fulfillment of prophecy? Or is the fulfillment of the prophecy a periodic starvation in certain parts of the world? Is the poverty of some parts of human society the fulfillment of prophecy? What is poverty? Is it when you have less than $ 500 a month, or less than $ 2500 a month?

According to Rutherford, the "time of the end" is a period of time when millions will not die, but will live forever. What a delightful sensation he caused in most of his listeners, and how at the same time he uttered the greatest nonsense. And all those people died, and we're talking about them now.

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

If God had not used people, there would not have been a debate on Christianity in the first place, nor will there be a fight, or bloodshed that came forth just for translating the Bible.

To me, this sounds like God would need people to destroy each other for the sake of the Bible, translations and interpretations. 

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

You missed the point, if there were no inspired works* that survives which enabled God to use non inspired prophets*, the Bible would not be the one you have in your hand today.

* red text highlighted by me

I am not sure how to understand this. Who are "non inspired prophets" who have made "inspired works"?

3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

There was a reason why there are people who risk their lives defending the truth about Christ, as well as translation, even dying for it.

The reasons why someone dies for the “truth of Christ” need to be learned from the person himself. JW, Catholics, Protestants, etc. suffer for their version of truth about Christ.

This is the first time I have heard that someone is dying today because of a (specific or any) translation of the Bible. Maybe there are people who have a Bible, and the state forbids them to have one. But then I would say that ultimately these people suffer because they don’t want to renounce God from the Bible, not because of the book itself which is made of paper. If they are hiding the Bible from the authorities and risking their lives for it, then they should ask themselves what is worth more: The book or their life?

Certainly, I agree that one should be true to his principles and pay the price for it. But where to go, how far, with the principles. Well, the Bible itself says that it is "better to be a living dog than a dead lion." However one wants to interpret this saying. And it can be interpreted in many ways, right?

Do people die because of the "truth", for the "truth" or because of/for their "belonging to something"?

But you will agree that preference should be given to life and not death. 

Because, if a man has sinned while he is alive, he can repent and start again. And when he surrenders to death because he thinks that with his death he will please God, then that is debatable. Because, he died for his vision of the truth about God. And the question is, was that true at all. At this JW club, it is constantly proven that “truth” is changing within this religious community. I don’t know how it is with other religions and how often they change their interpretations and dogmas. Perhaps you have some information and can make comparison with JW.

7 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

for if God had not used people, you would not be having a Bible in hand,

What has been said is speculation. First of all; God’s finger wrote on the stone and gave the “10 Commandments of God” for Moses to read to the people. If God could write it down, He could have written the whole Bible, right? This would certainly reduce some of the mistakes that could still be made when writing by people. Also, God could, if He willed, make other models in copying and reproducing the original Scriptures, which would give a guarantee that the “Word of God” could not be circumvented.

But certainly, there are always and will be people who will believe in one or the other, and show confidence or distrust in previous records and the expertise of those who transcribed and translated the Bible into other languages. It happens on both sides. And from those who, reading some translations of the Bible, say they are poorly and incorrectly translated, to those who claim that only certain translations of the Bible are correct and true.

Is all wars (every events) in history just one war, because in fact they always “overlap”? So we can talk about earthquakes, diseases, crimes, famines and the like. If we are going to solve everything with the help of the “overlap” offered to us by WTJWorg or others on this forum, then there is no need to point out any year in which things change dramatically and fulfill biblical prophecies.

In fact, we all live in continuity, a series of diverse events that are completely and uniquely connected to each other. Which means all people from Adam and Eve to this day are just one generation. We are connected by the overlap of our lives and the overlap of events.  

2 hours ago, BroRando said:

Yes, agreed.  A generation can be applied to a people who lived during a specific period or span of time.  For instance 1914 through 2034.  This generation will not pass away as a whole.  

Notice the words of Jesus are very different from what opposers of Christ have stated, "Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen." (Matthew 24:34)

I am glad to see another new Bible scholar with a whole new approach to the subject, different from WTJWorg.
So, if I understand correctly what you wrote, you are actually saying that a certain generation/generations is/are not a key determinant (generation = as a set of people no matter how someone defines the term generation and life span of such group) and that it is completely irrelevant to determine the life expectancy of a generation or series of generations following one for another. Like the one about the life expectancy of a man of an average of 70-80 years which was the WTJWorg approach to the topic until the emergence of a new doctrine of “overlapping generations”.

You actually want to make it known that in order to (as final result) recognize a generation, it is important to first determine the beginning and the end of all events that are in connection with "the last days" (signs, beginning of period, events, etc), and only then to come to a conclusion from such a time span of events, which group of people or generation/generations is/are actually involved and can be named as "generation" from Jesus prophecy . Brilliant.