Srecko Sostar

.... you want to overextend the premise to mean something out of context What is over-expanded here? The discussion is about “individual and collective conscience”. In what individual and collective environment, state of moral, ethics, upbringing and guidance of the individual did the future king grow? So, does a man become bad "overnight"? Or is it a process? If Manasseh has been exposed to corrupt people since his birth, yes, then it is possible that at the age of 12 he too was like his “teachers”. There is ambiguity in the biblical text which in two opening verses establishes two facts and connects them in a strange way (the child becomes king and that king is bad). The text does not establish that the child is bad, but that the king is bad. Who is the king? It is the child 12 years old. But for our discussion is irrelevant, does my opinion about that unknown details for king is possible or not. Important for the discussion are elements such as; what conscience the 12-year-old king had, how and why his conscience developed in a negative direction. How other people contributed to this in his childhood and youth and in the later period of his life, etc. How many ex-JWs became drug addicts, drunkards, thieves, idolaters, etc. after leaving WTJWorg? So, what kind of claims do you want to make here? And how do you want (if you want) to compare Manasseh and ex-JW?

Of course, nothing speaks concretely in favor of that idea. But it also says nothing about him being good from the beginning of his reign and then becoming bad. In fact, on the contrary, it seems he was bad almost "all" or bigger part of his life, and then he repented and was given the grace to live for a little more and rule Judas. It is obvious that, as in many other cases, children and people are influenced by those around them. This largely determines how they will live. CC said: He did what the LORD considered to be evil, following the despicable practices of the nations whom the LORD had expelled in full view of the people of Israel. He explained in this sentence, how little king boy followed despicable practices of other people (nations) but i would say, also of own people and older inside own nation, family, elders, friends etc (A. Morris statement about apostates aka ex-JW). In that sense i try to connect CC quote about 2 Kings 21. What teachings and practice and example GB members bring to JW members and JW children?

Well you, seems to me, agree, how GB in 1941 were not been "guided by spirit" but by own jargon, slang of that time. And JW members fell under GB slang influence, instead HS influence. Subject is: Who is to blame for misinformation? Don't forget. @Witness made update. .............WTJWorg made updates (with new optional "dates" for Armageddon). :))

I "reposted" WTJWorg lies about 1941. Who are you going to blame? Me or WTJWorg Company? Cartons of Children that had been deposited in The Arena were now opened, and Judge Rutherford instructed the children how to come and each get a copy thereof, those in the rear half of The Arena marching in two columns out through a side exit, and those in the front half of The Arena marching up over the platform and out through a rear exit. As the march began, the orchestra (minus all its children instrumentalists) struck up and rendered songs, "Children of the Heavenly King," "The Sword of the Lord and of Gideon," and "Who Is on the Lord's Side'" while the vast audience sang. Never was there a more moving Sight in these "last days". Many, including strong men, wept at the demonstration. Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided Instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon. What a gift I and to so many! The manner of releasing the new book Children was an outnght surprise to all, but the almighty hand of the All-wise One, Jehovah, was in it, and the maneuver was most blessed indeed. Thereafter Children, the author's edition, was disposed of to adult conventioners, on a contribution. Wt, September 15 Page 288

Could the term, “useful idiot”, be used for people who are convinced that they “have the truth” that is taught exclusively in WTJWorg, and that their religious leaders are the only ones who tell them the “truth” and can be trusted indefinitely?

Manasseh was twelve years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem fifty-five years. His mother’s name was Hephzibah. He did evil in the eyes of the Lord, following the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites. Verse suggests he was bad (evil) already with 12 years of age. At what age does someone become "despicable" (fake) JW or ex-JW ? :))

I will use @Witness quote of A. Morris wording: “Despicable apostates" – “their finally gonna be gone, all these despicable enemies that have just reproached Jehovah’s name, destroyed; never ever to live again”. What principle and what/whose faith you have to imitate, showed in A. Morris practice?

What is your suggestion about problem; How to explain to individual who is in delusion he/she is in error?

Hypothetical question: Do God’s people sin (make errors) more when they are disorganized or when they are organized? The second hypothetical question: If all these various customs and dogmas and interpretations and religious traditions that had (was part of) various “assemblies of God” through the past, became questionable and rejected in WTJWorg today, what is the problem? God, according to the idea presented by you and WTJWorg, has always had an "organization," but every real or imagined "organization" has never had a complete and accurate "truth." No “organization” has had “truth” in the past, and it does not exist today according to what is seen in any religion, including WTJWorg. What can be concluded is that religious “truth” exists only for a while and that is while it is supported by religious leaders and believers. After a while these same or some other people change their “understanding of the truth” and (people) are always in a state of religious “error”. It is fortunate for JW people that God repeatedly accepts every delusion that occurs in "his organization." How long, how much longer, will it go like this?

Further Example for illustration and argumentation: Does the Bible support or condemn slavery? Does it approve of it somewhere in the text or is it neutral on that issue? The OT text regulates slavery, meaning, it supports it as part of the social circumstances of the time. In the NT the matter of slavery is still relevant and nowhere is it described to be unacceptable to Christians. In fact, Paul also advises slaves to return to their master and be obedient (Ephesians 6). Isn't Paul "Christianly enlightened" so that he comes to understand that it is wrong to support slavery? Or did he obey the social injustices normal for the society of that time? When did slavery begin to be abolished and why? Was it because of a sense of injustice and that it was contrary to the freedom God had given to man or because of the social changes in the political consciousness of those who participated in power? Or was it all mixed together? So, Paul under “inspiration”, seems, supports slavery in the 1st century. What is inspired here? Paul's advice for slaves? Or is it inspired that the record became part of the Bible and shows how Paul gave counsel that was contrary to God’s love, but was already in accordance with the rights of slaveholders? Well it looks like, whether something is right or wrong becomes a process that goes beyond the framework of "level of accurate knowledge", and biblical understanding and interpretation in the past and today. True Christian people in the past was good Christian despise their slaveholder position. Today JW Christian would be considered as bad Christian if would had slaves. What has changed? Bible text in Ephesians 6? Interpretation of same text? Or Human Society today?

Bible not condemns birthdays as it is clearly visible by few records in Bible text. Also, what is "birthday"? Start of new period of life, for kid and for family. And people wish/want to be reminded of that happy day. What is wrong with that? Celebrating a wedding day is allowed in JW religion, but celebrating a child’s birthday is not allowed. A complete absurdity!

... each member agrees to "disagree without being disagreeable." :)))

Thanks for respond and opinion. If you pay attention to this down, it is clear that this JW Open Club and Forum as such, not advocating WTJWorg as "only true religion". Even G. Jackson said that in crystal clear way in ARC testimony (perhaps/for sure that was for public only). I underlined a few sentences in Guidelines. What the Forum stands for is completely contrary to the hopes that are ideologically promoted in WTJWorg. A) WTJWorg argues that there will be no coexistence of religions in the “New World,” for there will be only one religion known today as "Jehovah's Witnesses". B) GB does not allow their views to be questioned and challenged. C) GB does not allow as much freedom of speech as is allowed at the Open Club. I do not mean the freedom of insult that happens from time to time, but the freedom of speech that provides enough arguments to question the existing ideology of WTJWorg. Guidelines In addition to the terms and policies upon signup, each member agrees to "disagree without being disagreeable." This is a place where news and ideas are expressed, debated and information shared and as such ad hominem (personal) attacks or labels are not permitted. Every race, religion, age, disability, gender must coexist on here the same way they would as in a public square in New York Times Square. Illegal, threatening behavior will have you taken out of this public square. If you are of a certain religion and do not like what someone posts in a different religion's forum you may down vote the post. However expect your views of the world to be respectfully challenged. Truth only exists if it can stand the "test of fire" so to speak. We strongly believe in freedom of speech (within legal limits) and want to see even minority view still have a place. Anything "illegal" constitutes anything you might be carted off of New York Times square for. We hope this is clear enough and we will revisit this as needed.

What do you think about the “group dynamics” on this Forum? :))

You said, unbalanced. What is/was unbalanced about her? You said, brilliant. In what she is/was brilliant? After your explanation i would be able to better understand her "interesting observations"... and perhaps "an old cowboy type" reasons to not stop her "individual dynamic".

... video ends with "....will help you and your team make better group decisions". In WTJWorg GB makes group decisions for all JW's in Organization. Lower levels of "groups" stays in Abilene Paradox, until individuals comes to state of "rebellion" and spiritually or literally trying to get out of "group dynamics". Conscience is involved too.

....first flash on this is: GB+Helpers invented "new light" and offer it to rank and file to see reactions ...

Motu Tane is beautiful and whole video. Have some idea how to earn 39 million or even more? Of course, according to individual "conscience" :)).

Congratulation! For going there and for good thoughts about all those, so called, "worldly people" who are there.

emotional incontinence .... I found some of your wording, vocabulary choice here and in other places as strange. some internet explanations are: Pseudobular affect (PBA) goes by many other names—pathologic laughing and crying, emotional incontinence, emotional lability. It refers to a condition whereby patients display brief, involuntary episodes of laughing or crying, which may be emotionally congruent or incongruent and are typically provoked by seemingly trivial events. - https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/emotional-incontinence Emotional incontinence (EI) is a perturbing condition characterized by uncontrollable outbursts of exaggerated, involuntary facial expressions and pathological crying or laughter. There is increasing evidence that serotonergic neurotransmission may be damaged in EI. - https://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/jnp.10.4.453 + your last comment about "low IQ of JW faithful people", it leaves a weird impression of the JW members as a group, but also about you who feel that way about your brothers, about brothers who are "more and who are less faithful than ...(you ?, or than other JW people perhaps). Perhaps some real names and real persons and real situations about who are faithful despite low IQ can explain perception? You can use Biblical examples too.

I completely agree with what was said .... ... also, I am of the opinion that “blood fractions” cannot enter the realm of conscience. Because of the "do not eat blood" itself, as a commandment, it is essentially set as a prohibition, not as a moral dilemma. "Blood transfusion" has become a dilemma (religious, doctrinal, moral dilemma, etc.), because the question arises whether receiving blood for the purpose of a medical procedure can be reduced to just "eating" something that is prohibited in Bible . “Blood fractions” are not a matter of conscience because there is currently no religious dilemma about it in the WTJWorg official position. (Same is with blood transfusion. This is not matter for conscience of JW member, but only matter of obeying WTJWorg doctrine) The question of "blood fractions" is a question of the desired choice, similar to the example of "what color of carpet" do you want, or do you not want a carpet in general, but you want ceramic tiles. The question of conscience is not just a question of whether we will be guilty of something or not. Or, will the social environment accept or reject us. It is also a question of how we will feel ourselves if we do or do not do something.

I watched so called "basement" video made for Convention program JW had before few years. Are you speaking about that? .... or about urban dictionary definition that say: A male over the age of eightteen, usually with no formal education, who continues to live at home with his parent(s) and has no ambition to move out or contribute to society.

I like this new look at things. In fact, the interpretation, that GB has the task of producing spiritual food in terms of interpreting the Bible, is completely wrong. GB is not an FDS that should exist as a “channel” through which “food” comes. For “Food” should not be an interpretation of what was said thousands of years ago, but simply just work, i.e. preaching what was said by Jesus. Should, what Jesus has said, be interpreted several times, because every previous interpretation has turned out to be wrong? It turns out that “food for GB” is not preaching, but making, constantly, an interpretation of what is preached (by Jesus and the apostles). You forget that the Catholic Church began preaching long before and on a global scale (before WTJWorg). Does that make it the right religion? Their mission is to further spread the teachings of Jesus. In the past, they did it in illegal ways, together with the conquerors. Today, they are building schools and hospitals for converts.

Amazing! Who force you to argue with people you called "scum" in your angry mind? Form your own Forum and put any alerts you want, for reason to not misleading people. I have nothing against putting “warnings” here, which would let JW members know that WTJWorg does not support (endorse) any Forum, not even this one, (because it is not under GB control) ......... but every “well-informed” JW already knows that. :))

On what basis was this (funny-weird) conclusion reached? One way to gain experience is to live by the rules of an organization. So, the rules of the group, largely, determined one's experience. JW families are forbidden to celebrate birthdays. Well, some JW's children after they leave WTJWorg speaking about such experiences and have complaint about that. And what do we say now? How (bad) experiences are the result of a fall from Mars? Perhaps to try to recall the "experiences" of the early Christians over the issue of circumcision, the unfair distribution of food to widows of other ethnic origins, competition over positions in the congregation, lording over other ... etc