Srecko Sostar

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I don't think it suggests that. It's a review of his reign of 55 years. He could have done evil in only a few of those years and the verse would make just as much sense. Or perhaps a king could remain good for most of his reign but it's the reputation he made before the end of his life that counts here. Solomon, ironically, is credited with these verses:

(Ecclesiastes 7:1, 2) . . .A good name is better than good oil, and the day of death is better than the day of birth. 2 Better to go to the house of mourning than to the house of feasting, for that is the end of every man, and the living should take it to heart.

It's an interesting topic however, because "a boy" was not considered to necessarily know the difference between good and bad:

(Isaiah 7:15, 16) 15 He will eat butter and honey by the time that he knows how to reject the bad and choose the good. 16 For before the boy knows how to reject the bad and choose the good, the land of the two kings whom you dread will be completely abandoned.

 

Of course, nothing speaks concretely in favor of that idea. But it also says nothing about him being good from the beginning of his reign and then becoming bad. In fact, on the contrary, it seems he was bad almost "all" or bigger part of his life, and then he repented and was given the grace to live for a little more and rule Judas. It is obvious that, as in many other cases, children and people are influenced by those around them. This largely determines how they will live.

CC said: He did what the LORD considered to be evil, following the despicable practices of the nations whom the LORD had expelled in full view of the people of Israel.

He explained in this sentence, how little king boy followed despicable practices of other people (nations) but i would say, also of own people and older inside own nation, family, elders, friends etc (A. Morris statement about apostates aka ex-JW).

In that sense i try to connect CC quote about 2 Kings 21. What teachings and practice and example GB members bring to JW members and JW children? 

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

This seems to me, you people sure don't understand the lingo of that time.

Well you, seems to me, agree, how GB in 1941 were not been "guided by spirit" but by own jargon, slang of that time. And JW members fell under GB slang influence, instead HS influence.

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

By the way, don't do what you are famous for, don't change the subject!!

Subject is: Who is to blame for misinformation?

Don't forget. @Witness made update. 

.............WTJWorg made updates (with new optional "dates" for Armageddon). :))

7 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

What's the difference, YOU reposted it!! Own your own failures!!!

I "reposted" WTJWorg lies about 1941. Who are you going to blame? Me or WTJWorg Company?

Cartons of Children that had been deposited in The Arena were now opened, and Judge Rutherford instructed the children how to come and each get a copy thereof, those in the rear half of The Arena marching in two columns out through a side exit, and those in the front half of The Arena marching up over the platform and out through a rear exit. As the march began, the orchestra (minus all its children instrumentalists) struck up and rendered songs, "Children of the Heavenly King," "The Sword of the Lord and of Gideon," and "Who Is on the Lord's Side'" while the vast audience sang. Never was there a more moving Sight in these "last days". Many, including strong men, wept at the demonstration. Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided Instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon. What a gift I and to so many! The manner of releasing the new book Children was an outnght surprise to all, but the almighty hand of the All-wise One, Jehovah, was in it, and the maneuver was most blessed indeed. Thereafter Children, the author's edition, was disposed of to adult conventioners, on a contribution.    Wt, September 15 Page 288

4 hours ago, xero said:

Idiot opposers

Could the term, “useful idiot”, be used for people who are convinced that they “have the truth” that is taught exclusively in WTJWorg, and that their religious leaders are the only ones who tell them the “truth” and can be trusted indefinitely?

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

2 Kings 21:2

Manasseh was twelve years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem fifty-five years. His mother’s name was Hephzibah.  He did evil in the eyes of the Lord, following the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites. 

Verse suggests he was bad (evil) already with 12 years of age. At what age does someone become "despicable" (fake) JW or ex-JW ? :)) 

3 hours ago, xero said:

In other words the biblical principle is what you agree to, but the corporate expression of the same in any given congregation might be different, yet we are not to forget that we are imitating faith in the bible and the principles on which it, that faith is, not the person or the practice.

I will use @Witness quote of A. Morris wording: “Despicable apostates" – “their finally gonna be gone, all these despicable enemies that have just reproached Jehovah’s name, destroyed; never ever to live again”.

What principle and what/whose faith you have to imitate, showed in A. Morris practice?

3 hours ago, xero said:

The other thing that comes to mind is how opposers don't appear to consider the damage they are doing to others in their misguided zeal to root out what they believe to be falsehoods........

......Even if their way was correct, it's not correct to attempt to shove it down someone else's throat. That certainly isn't seasoning with salt. It certainly isn't with a mild temper. It certainly isn't with deep respect.

What is your suggestion about problem; How to explain to individual who is in delusion he/she is in error?

3 hours ago, xero said:

Consider how the bible shows so many actions taken, but not commanded by Jehovah on the part of his worshippers. One that comes to mind is the burial practices. The bible is silent as to any commands w/regard to burial and yet one would likely believe that these people had ideas about the body and resurrection which were in fact very, very wrong which neither Jehovah, not the prophets, nor Jesus himself, nor the 1st century congregation chose to address.

If we had a twitter or blogs or were present in the midst of the congregation of Gods people over the ages we'd certainly see and hear much which was wrong. None of this, of course meant these people weren't part of God's organized people.

3 hours ago, xero said:

None of this, of course meant these people weren't part of God's organized people.

Hypothetical question: Do God’s people sin (make errors) more when they are disorganized or when they are organized?
The second hypothetical question: If all these various customs and dogmas and interpretations and religious traditions that had (was part of) various “assemblies of God” through the past, became questionable and rejected in WTJWorg today, what is the problem?

God, according to the idea presented by you and WTJWorg, has always had an "organization," but every real or imagined "organization" has never had a complete and accurate "truth." No “organization” has had “truth” in the past, and it does not exist today according to what is seen in any religion, including WTJWorg.
What can be concluded is that religious “truth” exists only for a while and that is while it is supported by religious leaders and believers. After a while these same or some other people change their “understanding of the truth” and (people) are always in a state of religious “error”.

It is fortunate for JW people that God repeatedly accepts every delusion that occurs in "his organization."

How long, how much longer, will it go like this?

12 hours ago, Arauna said:

There are many things the bible does not condemn outright  but if you want to be morally clean and without any pagan images in your worship then one understands that it is wrong. It depends on level of obedience to god and the level of accurate knowledge.

Further Example for illustration and argumentation:

Does the Bible support or condemn slavery? Does it approve of it somewhere in the text or is it neutral on that issue?

The OT text regulates slavery, meaning, it supports it as part of the social circumstances of the time. In the NT the matter of slavery is still relevant and nowhere is it described to be unacceptable to Christians. In fact, Paul also advises slaves to return to their master and be obedient (Ephesians 6). Isn't Paul "Christianly enlightened" so that he comes to understand that it is wrong to support slavery? Or did he obey the social injustices normal for the society of that time?

When did slavery begin to be abolished and why? Was it because of a sense of injustice and that it was contrary to the freedom God had given to man or because of the social changes in the political consciousness of those who participated in power? Or was it all mixed together?

So, Paul under “inspiration”, seems, supports slavery in the 1st century. What is inspired here? Paul's advice for slaves? Or is it inspired that the record became part of the Bible and shows how Paul gave counsel that was contrary to God’s love, but was already in accordance with the rights of slaveholders?

Well it looks like, whether something is right or wrong becomes a process that goes beyond the framework of "level of accurate knowledge", and biblical understanding and interpretation in the past and today. 

True Christian people in the past was good Christian despise their slaveholder position. Today JW Christian would be considered as bad Christian if would had slaves. What has changed? Bible text in Ephesians 6? Interpretation of same text? Or Human Society today?

On 4/13/2021 at 4:25 PM, Arauna said:

Halloween, birthdays, Xmas and other pagan holidays

Bible not condemns birthdays as it is clearly visible by few records in Bible text. Also, what is "birthday"? Start of new period of life, for kid and for family. And people wish/want to be reminded of that happy day. What is wrong with that?

Celebrating a wedding day is allowed in JW religion, but celebrating a child’s birthday is not allowed. A complete absurdity!

20 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Oh give me a break!

... each member agrees to "disagree without being disagreeable." :)))

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

In my personal opinion,

Thanks for respond and opinion.

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

, if this site, just admits to being an apostate site, and label it in such a way to reflect it, then I have no problem with the dynamics of this forum. 

If you pay attention to this down, it is clear that this JW Open Club  and Forum as such, not advocating WTJWorg as "only true religion". Even G. Jackson said that in crystal clear way in ARC testimony (perhaps/for sure that was for public only). I underlined a few sentences in Guidelines. What the Forum stands for is completely contrary to the hopes that are ideologically promoted in WTJWorg. 

A) WTJWorg argues that there will be no coexistence of religions in the “New World,” for there will be only one religion known today as "Jehovah's Witnesses".

B) GB does not allow their views to be questioned and challenged.

C) GB does not allow as much freedom of speech as is allowed at the Open Club. I do not mean the freedom of insult that happens from time to time, but the freedom of speech that provides enough arguments to question the existing ideology of WTJWorg.

Guidelines

In addition to the terms and policies upon signup, each member agrees to "disagree without being disagreeable."

This is a place where news and ideas are expressed, debated and information shared and as such ad hominem (personal) attacks  or labels are not permitted.

Every race, religion, age, disability, gender must coexist on here the same way they would as in a public square in New York Times Square. Illegal, threatening behavior will have you taken out of this public square.

If you are of a certain religion and do not like what someone posts in a different religion's forum you may down vote the post. However expect your views of the world to be respectfully challenged.

Truth only exists if it can stand the "test of fire" so to speak.

We strongly believe in freedom of speech (within legal limits) and want to see even minority view still have a place. Anything "illegal" constitutes anything you might be carted off of New York Times square for.

We hope this is clear enough and we will revisit this as needed. 

What do you think about the “group dynamics” on this Forum? :))

1 hour ago, xero said:

We used to have a sister who was unbalanced but quite brilliant who'd make interesting observations (not in any WT) during the WT and it was fun seeing the conductor (an old cowboy type, nod his head and let it go). But he never stopped calling on her. Everyone would wake up whenever she was called on. "I wonder what the 'new light's' going to be this week?"

 

You said, unbalanced. What is/was unbalanced about her?

You said, brilliant. In what she is/was brilliant?

After your explanation i would be able to better understand her "interesting observations"... and perhaps "an old cowboy type" reasons to not stop her "individual dynamic". 

4 hours ago, xero said:

I believe we had an article, or was it a letter, I don't remember right now where failure to discipline was referred to as mistaken kindness. The same could be said about not speaking your mind. Failure to do so shields both you and the ones you could be speaking to from what you really feel is the truth. (You could be very wrong, but not speaking up could take everyone on a trip to Abilene). On the other hand, there's no need to tell people things they obviously already know. In this case they just shouldn't be shielded from the consequences of their own actions.

 

... video ends with "....will help you and your team make better group decisions".

In WTJWorg GB makes group decisions for all JW's in Organization. Lower levels of "groups" stays in Abilene Paradox, until individuals comes to state of "rebellion" and spiritually or literally trying to get out of "group dynamics". Conscience is involved too.

15 minutes ago, xero said:

this commercial

....first flash on this is: GB+Helpers invented "new light" and offer it to rank and file to see reactions ...

11 hours ago, xero said:

Apparently this island is for sale. Only 39 million.

 

Motu Tane is beautiful and whole video. Have some idea how to earn 39 million or even more? Of course, according to individual "conscience" :)).

3 hours ago, xero said:

No opposers or long winded idiots here.

Congratulation! For going there and for good thoughts about all those, so called, "worldly people" who are there.  

12 hours ago, xero said:

I liked the fact that there wasn't a lot of emotional incontinence at the meetings of JW's when I first started going.

emotional incontinence .... I found some of your wording, vocabulary choice here and in other places as strange.

some internet explanations are: Pseudobular affect (PBA) goes by many other names—pathologic laughing and crying, emotional incontinence, emotional lability. It refers to a condition whereby patients display brief, involuntary episodes of laughing or crying, which may be emotionally congruent or incongruent and are typically provoked by seemingly trivial events. - https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/emotional-incontinence

Emotional incontinence (EI) is a perturbing condition characterized by uncontrollable outbursts of exaggerated, involuntary facial expressions and pathological crying or laughter. There is increasing evidence that serotonergic neurotransmission may be damaged in EI. - https://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/jnp.10.4.453

+ your last comment about "low IQ of JW faithful people", it leaves a weird impression of the JW members as a group, but also about you who feel that way about your brothers, about brothers who are "more and who are less faithful than ...(you ?, or than other JW people perhaps). 

14 hours ago, Anna said:

20 hours ago, xero said:

would imagine that certain nuance in the exercise of one's conscience might get a jaundiced look from low IQ brothers and sisters. Let's face it, some of our most faithful brothers and sisters have IQ's about the level of a hamster.

Perhaps some real names and real persons and real situations about who are faithful despite low IQ can explain perception?  You can use Biblical examples too. 

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

If a brother wants a grey carpet in the new Kingdom Hall, and you want a beige carpet, it is not a matter of "conscience"

I completely agree with what was said .... 

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This is probably the way most Witnesses look at blood-sourced medical therapies. Most Witnesses will accept the full range of "allowed" blood products (smaller fractions) that the WTS has identified as OK "if your conscience allows it." What the WTS has currently identified as "not allowed" (whole and larger fractions) are not considered to be a matter of conscience. They are simply not allowed without the potential consequences of disfellowshipping.

... also, I am of the opinion that “blood fractions” cannot enter the realm of conscience. Because of the "do not eat blood" itself, as a commandment, it is essentially set as a prohibition, not as a moral dilemma. "Blood transfusion" has become a dilemma (religious, doctrinal, moral dilemma, etc.), because the question arises whether receiving blood for the purpose of a medical procedure can be reduced to just "eating" something that is prohibited in Bible .

“Blood fractions” are not a matter of conscience because there is currently no religious dilemma about it in the WTJWorg official position. (Same is with blood transfusion. This is not matter for conscience of JW member, but only matter of obeying WTJWorg doctrine)  The question of "blood fractions" is a question of the desired choice, similar to the example of "what color of carpet" do you want, or do you not want a carpet in general, but you want ceramic tiles.

The question of conscience is not just a question of whether we will be guilty of something or not. Or, will the social environment accept or reject us. It is also a question of how we will feel ourselves if we do or do not do something.

9 minutes ago, xero said:

basement dwellers

I watched so called "basement" video made for Convention program JW had before few years. Are you speaking about that?

.... or about urban dictionary definition that say: A male over the age of eightteen, usually with no formal education, who continues to live at home with his parent(s) and has no ambition to move out or contribute to society.

4 hours ago, xero said:

Jesus said to them: “My food is to do the will of him who sent me+ and to finish his work. - John 4:34

The above passage has Jesus using the word "food" to mean "doing God's will" and "finishing his work".

The faithful and discreet slave is described as providing "food" at the proper time. Mt. 24:45

I like this new look at things. In fact, the interpretation, that GB has the task of producing spiritual food in terms of interpreting the Bible, is completely wrong. GB is not an FDS that should exist as a “channel” through which “food” comes. For “Food” should not be an interpretation of what was said thousands of years ago, but simply just work, i.e. preaching what was said by Jesus. Should, what Jesus has said, be interpreted several times, because every previous interpretation has turned out to be wrong?

It turns out that “food for GB” is not preaching, but making, constantly, an interpretation of what is preached (by Jesus and the apostles).

4 hours ago, xero said:

If I interpret this as providing the necessary tools to "do God's will" and "finish God's work" then I'd say that the organization known as the WTBS run by the governing body has done this.

The work is the preaching the good news of God's Kingdom and doing this world wide.

I'd say this organization has kept it's focus and knows it's mission.

You forget that the Catholic Church began preaching long before and on a global scale (before WTJWorg). Does that make it the right religion? Their mission is to further spread the teachings of Jesus. In the past, they did it in illegal ways, together with the conquerors. Today, they are building schools and hospitals for converts.

1 minute ago, César Chávez said:

I really don't care about they're evil deeds. My concern is, this site is misleading to visitors. If the owner changes its platform to make that known, I don't need to argue with scum.

Amazing! Who force you to argue with people you called "scum" in your angry mind? Form your own Forum and put any alerts you want, for reason to not misleading people. 

I have nothing against putting “warnings” here, which would let JW members know that WTJWorg does not support (endorse) any Forum, not even this one, (because it is not under GB control) ......... but every “well-informed” JW already knows that. :))

4 hours ago, xero said:

Ex JW's imagine they have some kind of monopoly on hating their religion or that they are unique in any manner.

On what basis was this (funny-weird) conclusion reached?

4 hours ago, xero said:

A quick look at reddit (type in "ex-whatever") and you'll find plenty of people who are complaining about their experiences.

One way to gain experience is to live by the rules of an organization. So, the rules of the group, largely,  determined one's experience. JW families are forbidden to celebrate birthdays. Well, some JW's children after they leave WTJWorg speaking about such experiences and have complaint about that. And what do we say now? How (bad) experiences are the result of a fall from Mars?

4 hours ago, xero said:

It makes me wonder what a 1st century reddit would look like in this regard.

Perhaps to try to recall the "experiences" of the early Christians over the issue of circumcision, the unfair distribution of food to widows of other ethnic origins, competition over positions in the congregation, lording over other ... etc

3 hours ago, Thinking said:

The serious matter that happens with such places is that they are refusing and lacking trust in Jehovah to be able to correct, allow..and rule his people as he sees fit.

He USES faulty sinful men..men who make serious errors...such as Moses Jonah..King David..and yes even and more so theGB...to get his job done but to teach us and them...it is HE...and only HE..who achieves his desired plans...regardless of who he uses.

He USES faulty sinful men..men who make serious errors. ......there are no different people (in any sphere of life) on Earth than the ones you described. By this, He can use not only faulty sinful JW but also faulty sinful Catholic, Mormons, Adventist, politician, etc

In second part of your thought, are you suggesting that everything that is wrong in the Organization is actually inseparable part of God’s Plan ? Or, that because of the constant appearance of all that is wrong in the Organization, God's plan must be changed and adjusted over and over again?

3 hours ago, Thinking said:

Jehovah is allowing these places to exist...as a winnowing...

Well, by that we could also say that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in Eden was a kind of sifting. However, there this tree was not only grew by accident, but was placed with the intent rather than by mere "allowing". 

3 hours ago, Thinking said:

This must be acknowledged..and recognized ..some things that have been allowed is nothing short of ruthless and cruel.....but this has always been amongst his people..when certain kings ruled ruthlessly over his people...he allowed it...I now  view it as a testing for me ..

With this thoughts, we can be closer to idea how JHVH participating in "guiding apostates sites" to "correct"  WTJWorg ? :))