Srecko Sostar

Don't understand. How is conscience formed? How is morality formed? How is the standard formed? How people changing conscience, moral and standard? ...and other things in connection with these three.

In the definition of what conscience is, it is said that one of the abilities / purposes of conscience is to distinguish good from bad. If I understood your statement well, you claim that conscience arose AFTER the sin of the first humans. A new act of God’s creativity after He created everything and start to REST from creation, is the creation of conscience in DNA?? Is it this what you talking about? Then we have more dilemmas about First Pair, Sin, Tree of Knowledge etc. Before sin, according to your statement, Adam and Eve had no conscious. Then this would means that they could not discern what is good and what is evil. To eat or not to eat The Fruit. We all agree that people need to have conscience ( as some comments gave picture, that would be - individual, collective or/and individual-collective conscience to be able doing right things). By your presented scenario, there is no existence of individual conscience and there is not collective conscience too, in Eden. What Adam and Eve had? Furthermore, the biblical text in Genesis also says that God said after they ate the Fruit from the Tree: "Now people have become like us and know what is good and what is evil". This suggest, also, how this couple had any (no) knowledge about good and evil (or about anything, about many thing else too??) Conclusion? Adam and Eve had no Conscience ... and had no Knowledge about good and bad? Can somebody explain why would God put them (or You) on test without Conscience? Why would God put them (or You) on test without Knowledge? According to Genesis, we could conclude that Adam and Eve done wrong decision because they were "without knowledge." And because they refuse to obey direct command from God. By this, it could mean how people don't need "Knowledge" and don't need "Conscience". But only to obey ban about the Tree. After all, the Bible elsewhere speaks to just that aspect and says that Israel "perished because they were without knowledge." The text of the Bible does not speak (openly or not at all) about the competition between conscience and knowledge. To act properly we need both tools: conscience and knowledge. And then other things; faith, love, courage etc. In example of old Israel lack of knowledge caused their ruin. What sort of "knowledge" trains individual and collective conscience in WTJWorg?? What sort of "obedience" substitutes conscience and knowledge in WTJWorg??

There are three of us, so it can't be wrong. Every testimony that is said by two or three witnesses is "the truth". :)))

It only means one thing: You have overcome prejudice. I adore you. adore = to love and respect someone very much, or to like something very much - https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/adore

If you want to hear my opinion. There are two types of conscience. First is Natural conscience (in biblical terminology) given by God. It is obtained by birth and inherited by genetics that began with Adam and Eve. After birth, a child or in another situation an adult, comes under the influence of family, environment, society and their own choices. Second is Artificial conscience. For example, JW members have two types of conscience. The first one, natural, from God. The second type of conscience is called in the WTJWorg publication; "Bible-trained conscience." It is an artificially created conscience based on religious-ideological interpretations and doctrines. It has some positive aspects, but not always. For example, not greeting a former member of the Organization creates a certain conflict in the JW member. There is a conflict between two types of conscience: between the Natural Conscience given by God and the Artificially Created Conscience trained in the Organization.

bow down, do homage, adore, worship, fall on knees - to anyone entitled Pope is entitled, King and President are entitled, Caesar is entitled ...etc. King can present not only secular but spiritual (religious) authority. Elizabeth II is a monarch who heads the Church of England. Would a JW member bow (in any of possible form) to this Queen? She is entitled, because of Romans 13! Pope is entitled because of same verses. To what extent of understanding, about what is “worship” and what is not, will someone go? JW members are forbidden, by GB decree, to paint walls in some non-JW church. Is that sort of worship? Is that supporting "false religion"? Being part of UN and OSCE and sitting with religious leaders of various churches, done by GB, is it not showing "support" for secular and religious things - and sort of bow down, do homage, adore, worship, fall on knees .... if we stretch the terms a little to degree of famous painting church walls? Problem of understanding exist, of course, but WTJWorg contributing to that confuse too.

In continue John chapter 14, verse 15 say: If ye love me, keep my commandments. We have; ME and MY. Love ME. Keep MY commandments. When answering the question of the greatest commandment, he began with: Love God (JHVH nwt) and ended with Love Neighbor. Who was Jesus on Earth, to disciple? Neighbor? I don't think so. But for sure he was; God, Son of God, Lord, Master, King etc? In this verse he not directed people to LOVE JHVH. In this verse he not directed people to KEEP commandments of JHVH. He directed people to himself. Interesting.

Little funny intermezzo, if you don't mind. We have Russian Sputnik again, in form of vaccine. :))

No, that is not problem, really it is not. So many others in Bible times were wrong, is not good way to excuse yourself (myself, etc) for wrongs, errors we made. Justify one's own mistakes with a general truth like this; that we all make mistakes, is not the right way. To make justification in fact. Because, when we make a mistake, then we need to admit the mistake, correct the mistake and ask for forgiveness. I am sure you will agree.

Another Bible quote came to mind; My Father’s house has many rooms - John 14 So there’s something being said here about the idea that some will go to heaven. What does a lot of rooms (mansions, dweling places, abodes) mean? How many rooms and apartments are there? How many beds per room? If it really mattered or determined, I guess Jesus would have mentioned that thing. Or maybe not. But even this paragraph does not speak in favor of a fixed number of 144,000.

It could be. Some writers of WT study articles elaborated about mental state of people who take symbols, who are partakers. Yes, you make good point :)).

:))) ....there isn't really a problem with that aspect. If the number changes, it's because some anointed ones drop out, some replace them, and some dropouts come back again ... somewhere, or at least in WTJWorg. Only the Main Administrative Body (ruling council), which is the Ecclesiastical GB, can have a problem. Because their doctrine, which is in force because of their will and so called “guided” understanding, is incorrect. :))

17 However, if some of the branches were broken off and you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the richness of the olive’s root...20 That is true! For their lack of faith, they were broken off,...23 And they also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in,y for God is able to graft them back in. As we know, WTJWorg teaches that 144000 is a literal number. They also teaches that if some “anointed ones” drop out then they will be replaced by someone else, to get the number filled. Reading these lines, I see something for the first time. Fallen anointed ones are replaced by newly elected anointed ones. But the verse says that the fallen anointed ones can return and be attached to the tree again. So the tree always remains the same, but the number of branches is not determined. Returning the cut branches, there is no mention anywhere that the replacement branches will be cut off because the original branches are reattached. So, the number of "anointed ones" according to this illustration is not defined. It can be larger than the imagined number (144000).

Just for sake of discussion Is there a possibility that, the number, 144000 should not be taken literally? Revelation is full of symbolism and almost nothing is literal. Even the term 1000 year (Kingdom) should not be literally counted as one thousand years of 365 days each. WTJWorg has formally given up the length of Creative Day that lasted 7,000 years. But, it is still the idea that literal 1000 years of the Kingdom is PART of the literal 7000 Years (of 7th Creative Day). That is why it was a rumor around 1975, because then the period of 6000 years from the creation of man ended. According to such a WTJWorg chronology, the final part of the 7th day, with the 1000 years of the Kingdom of God, was expected to begin in that period. By overthrowing the idea of a fixed duration of Creative Day, the interpretation built on the rejected idea was called into question. But nothing new. The same can be seen in other interpretations.

No comment

Approved? No "transparency" than? As people today would say. You know, today is modern to be "transparent" But, let us go to old wording and same meaning: "Be honest in all things" Heb 13:18 ... and let people know what are you speaking and thinking and doing. Let it be known for all to see, without limit.

Actually the GB say that ONLY THEY are the F&DS and the GB say that 'God and Christ trusts the GB so then every JW should trust the GB' @TrueTomHarley When "They (GB) speak", members are reminded to have full trust in GB (and their words), and not to question "instructions" because WT Study Edition gave lesson: All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/pl/r1/lp-e?q=w13 11%2F15 20 Who is "too much", TTH ?

The following thesis should be considered. If Jesus became King, with all "authority in heaven and on earth," in 33 AD or in 1914 AD, as you wish, than we come to a dilemma; If Jesus is your King, from whom should you ask, pray for mercy, blessing, help, etc.? From his Dad or from Him who is The King? According to WTJWorg teaching, JHVH is The Grandfather, already (think in book "Prince of Peace" they put this). Also, Witness explained in her illustration this moment. If the interpretation of the Biblical words is correct (about the surrender / return of the power of the Son to the Father, after 1000 years) from 1 Cor. 15, we shall have different situation about Who is Who in the Universe. Then we have in John 14 6; Jesus said to him, “I am the way + and the truth + and the life. + No one comes to the Father except through me. But we also have John 6 44; No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him, .. Interesting and complicated, at least for me. If there is freedom of communication, at least (even if) only in our head, then we can "talk" to whoever we want. After all, only a few have literally heard a reaction to their words, according to Bible.

JW Open Club and JW Only Club in one place - The Forum. People can go on two "sources" with the simple move of "mouse" :)) Thanks for giving "credit" to ex members (and new ex members :) ) whose words have certain meaning and some value to given readers.

Perhaps Anna and other JW members believe how apostasy in form of "man of lawlessness" already came in 1st Christian congregation and then continued with big appearance of Roman State Religion aka false Christianity that exist until today. In such logic (WTJWorg teaching i guess) it looked as good conclusion for Russell and his heirs (Rutherford and JW's with him later) how "presence" of Jesus came somehow in the same time with "presence" of Russell. "First Jesus' presence" in 1874 with "end" in 1914 (WTS established in 1879). Later they moved this date, and the year 1914 came to be start point for "invisible presence", again. In such WTJWorg "scenario" it is not possible, or needed to happen again, for any new occurrence with some extra "man of lawlessness" in "only true religion" aka WTJWorg. But such eschatology, eschatological understanding, removes the caution of believers, who may be manipulated by their religious leaders. As it seems to me, the "man of lawlessness" has existed constantly, throughout the period since the 1st Congregation was established till today. "The Strong Cable of Chronology", Watch Tower, July 15, 1922, page 217, "The chronology of present truth is, to begin with, a string of dates... Thus far it is a chain, and no stronger than its weakest link. There exist, however, well established relationships among the dates of present-truth chronology. These internal connections of the dates impart a much greater strength than can be found in other [secular, archeological] chronologies. Some of them are of so remarkable a character as clearly to indicate that this chronology is not of man, but of God. Being of divine origin and divinely corroborated, present-truth chronology stands in a class by itself, absolutely and unqualifiedly correct. he Watchtower, March 1, 1922, page 73, "The indisputable facts, therefore, show that the 'time of the end' began in 1799; that the Lord's second presence began in 1874."

@Ray DevereauxHi! Are you "paid" for giving people down vote :)) ... and not participating in exposing yourself with comments to explain your reasoning on topic and your arguments. Please, confront yourself with others through dialogue.

It’s hard to wait in anticipation of things to come and then things come anyway. How much harder it is to wait for things that never came, until today.

I am not sure what was final "destiny". Recycle or "fire".

Because that food has become "garbage." Such “spiritual food” that was produced and multiplied in the past in WTJWorg printing presses is no longer produced. Most publications (books, magazines, booklets...) that many JWs today don’t even know about, are no longer used. It has been forgotten on the shelves of few old JW members and in the archives of WTJWorg in America. Many publications were literally destroyed and / or thrown in the trash. Personally, I remember helping to throw away hundreds of books in Zagreb's Bethel (at the old address at 11 Kamaufova Street in Zagreb) before many decades. It was a small format book, if I'm not mistaken the color was light blue, hardcover) A few of us were a young workforce carrying boxes of books out of the basement. And some of us had astonished faces in disbelief wondering, "Is it not a sin to throw away the word of God written in these books"? The leading people of Bethel in Zagreb, together with the USA Administration, obviously did not consider such a procedure to be incorrect. Why? Well because of what many of us later realized. That wasn't "the truth" anyway. And more than that, it was not "the truth" from God. There are things that are “true” and without God to tell us that. But, WTJWorg used just the latter to convince people to accept human interpretations and beliefs as God's. Once upon a time, even today, they claim the same; that everything written in WTJWorg publications came from God via FDS channel or through GB. It is unlikely that someone who simply reads the Bible without taking advantage of divinely provided aids could discern the light. That is why Jehovah God has provided “the faithful and discreet slave,” foretold at Matthew 24:45-47. Today that “slave” is represented by the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is under the direction of this body that the “Light Bearers” District Convention has been arranged. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1992328 - Come to the “Light Bearers” District Convention Title of this article suggesting how GB is Light Bearers, and then all JW members who sow such "truth" are likewise, light bearers. Also: So, then, we have noted four basic avenues of aid: (1) reading and studying God’s Word, together with Christian literature; (2) persevering in prayer; (3) yielding to the influence of God’s holy spirit; and (4) enlisting the aid of mature Christians. In these ways, many, many persons have been helped in their struggle to overcome weaknesses. Yet, some have a far more difficult time conquering weaknesses than do others. Are there yet other aids that they could effectively use? - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1982762 Why do “divinely provided aids” end up in the trash?