Srecko Sostar

2 minutes ago, xero said:

There's no shortage of mentally ill people among JW's that's for sure. Shows what a tolerant and welcoming lot they are.

And now everyone who is not mentally handicapped should understand the context and reasons for this statement?

.....  

16 hours ago, César Chávez said:

You seem to know the difference.

To some extent. So, I see that Jesus pronounced condemnation (judgment). Did Jesus hate them? I don’t know much about it. I don’t know anything about how He felt about that feeling (hate). Maybe somewhere in the Bible it says that Jesus hated someone? I don't know.

But I know something else. Jesus sat at the table with some "sort of sinners". He ate, drank, talked, and even felt good with them. He also accepted the Pharisees' invitation to dinner and fellowship at the Pharisee's house. 

On other hand, he probably didn't hang out with "some other sort of sinners". Both "group of sinners" belonged to one congregation - the Jewish people.

It seems to me that His choice of whom to associate with was not about what  kind of sin particular individual done, but what He thought about sinner who was in question. But maybe I’m wrong, I’m not very familiar with this kind of topic. It would be good to hear more thoughts from others about it. 

16 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Learn it, or stop use it.

 What is this? Hate speech, Judgmental speech, Command speech? :))

I will use what @Witness comment on other topic. 

 Tony Morris:

“The final end of God’s enemies.  It can be very encouraging, albeit sobering…(Ps 37:20) Since they’re Jehovahs enemies, and Jehovah is our best friend, that means they’re our enemies. How we look forward to these enemies of Jehovah, our enemies vanishing like smoke.   

Fire would be a suitable means of eliminating such refuse.  What the fire would not consume the maggots would.  Now, I don’t know if you know much about maggots, you see a whole bunch of them…it’s not a pleasant sight; but what a fitting picture of the final end of all of God’s enemies. 

Sobering yet something we look forward to.

…they’re finally gonna be gone, all these despicable enemies that have just reproached Jehovah’s name, destroyed, never ever to live again.  Now its not that we rejoice in someone’s death, but when it comes to God’s enemies, finally, they’re out of the way…especially these despicable apostates who at one point had dedicated their life to God and then they joined forces with Satan the devil, the chief apostate of all time.” 

And also what @Kick_Faceinatorfind in WT magazine (in same topic):

Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil." Watchtower 1989 Sep 1 p.19

Here we have both in GB - hate and judgment. 

5 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

But do tell me, was it hate speech when Jesus condemned the Pharisees as hypocrites, white washed graves, ect ? 

Hate speech or judgment speech?

“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? matt 23

xero Introducing comment:

I was an atheist visiting the KH w/my gf who was studying, and I observed them for months and also went to a day of a district convention when it struck me what was most different about JW's was that their behavior improved to the extent that they got together as a group. This I contrasted with every other group I'd been with. To the extent the group grew in size, to that extent it became unruly and more badly behaved.

1 hour ago, xero said:

As an aside, people who are offended or disgusted by the behavior of other people are often putting themselves in the judgment seat. There is a natural disgust reflex, but the opposer especially the moral opposer who places themselves in the judgment seat often has an unnatural and self induced disgust based on his or her own presumptuous standards. In truth, they have no right to be offended or disgusted by anything but themselves as they fall short of Jehovah's standards. Of course rather than focusing on their own offensive, disgusting behavior from Jehovah's standards, they presume to be clean. In this presumption they are the filthiest of them all and the most disgusting.

...their behavior improved to the extent that they got together as a group.

As a non JW, from your observation, you concluded (i guess or perhaps i am wrong because don't understand English enough) that (previously "bad") individuals were getting better and better persons and that motivated them to start hanging out with each other at the public meetings (JW public group meetings, not some other group as you suggest). And second option of my understanding is, that you described how they in such mutual socializing grew in size and grew in more better behavior (to each other, of course). Am i going in direction of your thoughts?

This I contrasted with every other group I'd been with. To the extent the group grew in size, to that extent it became unruly and more badly behaved.

 Here I would like to ask: With how many groups you had been? And with what kind of groups?

As an aside, people who are offended or disgusted by the behavior of other people are often putting themselves in the judgment seat.

How do you feel about behavior of other people who doing something that you do not approve?

There is a natural disgust reflex, but the opposer especially the moral opposer who places themselves in the judgment seat often has an unnatural and self induced disgust based on his or her own presumptuous standards.

You made general rule (idea) how people normal reaction is to be disgust with some other people actions in word or deed. But after this sort of amnesty for all, how we all have right to be disgusted by other people behavior, you started to speak about "opposer", and how such "sort" of people are not just in possession of "disgust reflex", but that they "seat in judgment seat". Who are "opposer" in your thought stream? How you came to such "judgment"?  Is your judgment based on...... 

... own presumptuous standards.

....or on WTJWorg group standards that carry "judgment for all who don't accept JW religious standards"?

2 hours ago, xero said:

In truth, they have no right to be offended or disgusted by anything but themselves as they fall short of Jehovah's standards. Of course rather than focusing on their own offensive, disgusting behavior from Jehovah's standards, they presume to be clean. In this presumption they are the filthiest of them all and the most disgusting.

Does your JW group standard bring judgment how only  WTJWorg is clean and all other are filthy?

9 minutes ago, xero said:

That's all you're getting for now because this exchange is less appealing than watching paint dry.

Please don't bother anymore, I've gotten enough from you so far. :))

29 minutes ago, xero said:

Wrong answer. It means you don't know your bible.

²¹  He [JEHOVAH] changes times and seasons,+Removes kings and sets up kings,+Gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those with discernment.+ - Daniel 2:21

¹⁷  This is by the decree of watchers,+ and the request is by the word of the holy ones, so that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind+ and that he gives it to whomever he wants, and he sets up over it even the lowliest of men.” - Daniel 4:17

¹⁰  So Pilate said to him: “Are you refusing to speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and I have authority to execute you?”* ¹¹  Jesus answered him: “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been granted to you from above. This is why the man who handed me over to you has greater sin.” - John 19:10-11

So, this outwitting continues, it seems.

Two quotes from Daniel have their context. Is Babylon a forerunner of WTJWorg?
Should the quote from John mean that WTJWorg gets power from Satan?

11 minutes ago, xero said:

The questions YOU and we all need to answer are:

Is God using this/or that organization, like I might use a stick to get some crap off my nikes after a trail run, after which I have no use for the stick?

Does this organization assent that it is being used by Jehovah?

Does this organization have Jehovah's approval?

1) Is God using this/or that organization, like I might use a stick to get some crap off my nikes after a trail run, after which I have no use for the stick?

Weird idea? Shows that God is monster.

2) Does this organization assent that it is being used by Jehovah?

If God somehow created "the organization" aka WTJWorg, what do you mean with this question? "Clay" is not asked what it (clay) wants to be.

3) Does this organization have Jehovah's approval?

You ask wrong person. Ask God for that answer.

12 minutes ago, xero said:

Let's cut to the chase. Opposers can go pound sand.  Opposers wouldn't know squat about the Bible if there wasn't an organization to superintend its preservation and transmission to the present. Opposers wouldn't have known enough to bother with learning about the Bible were it not for organizations existing to push doctrine. Opposers can't exist without an organization to oppose. So nothing is useful about opposers. These exist as parasites feeding off the real or imagined deficiencies of organizations.

So, the whole "world started spinning" in 1879 with the founding of WT? :)))

17 minutes ago, xero said:

We used to play a game called "smear the queer" (in the UK it's called British Bulldog) at lunch and only the cowardly kids would refuse to play by taking the ball and running w/it. Opposers are like that.

... internet source about game:

Play starts when object is thrown into the air. Players may either snatch object out of the air or wait until it lands. If the object lands, the person closest to it MUST pick it up. (Group will use judgement, or someone who wants it can just pick it up.) Once a player is in posession of the object, they try not to get tackled. Once tackled, the object is thrown into the air (or at a particular person) and the game starts over. Play usually ends when everyone is tired or when someone gets hurt.

Play usually ends when everyone is tired or when someone gets hurt.

Good lesson! Good message! :))

8 minutes ago, xero said:

Now if you have some scriptural point to make on topic (that God uses or doesn't use an organization), then make it.

Give me a minute please. ..... In the past He had contacts with individuals, families, tribes, the people of the Jews. I don’t remember any biblical account that he used something that/like we call “organization” today. Of course, an individual can be organized. The family can be organized. The people can be organized.
In conclusion, I can say that God can use anything he wants to do his will. Does God use "the organization" to which the JWs belong from 1879/1935?

How about a counter-question? Does God use secular organizations?

1 hour ago, Anna said:

The role of the elders is to help shepherd the sheep and protect the flock, not to judge who will gain everlasting life and who will not. If someone is disfellowshipped it is on account of known unrepentant wrong doing and according to the scriptures.

According to Scripture? Perhaps than,  JW Judicial Committee need to be public in front congregants and other people. Role model is written in OT. Perhaps Moses Law is fulfilled in Legality and Legalism for Christians. But still, GB calls and promote OT Principles not just or only from NT. If so, please Public Hearings and Court Decisions guided by JW elders. Even secular Court in Valencia have this method.

43 minutes ago, xero said:

He presents a false dilemma.

No, he presented doctrine of "light" that will shine more and more with every day, year and decade :))))

....and WTJWorg introduced that theory of "new light" years after, ....and advanced it to such an extent that it brought it to the status of a doctrine. The doctrines, according to which it is possible to declare previous false teachings as a "divinely guided" way of reaching the " increasing new light", without declaring the "old light"  to be a lie.

By the way, Bible has not words such "New Light". So, words that are not in the Bible, not supports doctrine like this :))) 

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

hese people could be manipulated, they could be controlled, they could be made to do the most horrible things because of their fear of death, Sanderson said, but accurate Bible knowledge frees them from such slavery.

That’s the kind of “control” and “manipulation” that truly is more than just in  the eye of the beholder:

I guess this is a good statement for many aspects and situations in the lives of JW members as well?

9 hours ago, ApostaBabe Linda James said:

They had control and authority over my parent's so they got my parent's to do the dirty works with me by direction way of the leadership.

If i may ask, what you mean with "dirty works"?

9 hours ago, ApostaBabe Linda James said:

"Jehovah's Witnesses did not voluntarily join because we object to the assertion that the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses assumes responsibility for children," the group said.

"Our objection is based on the fact that the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses does not and has not sponsored any activities that have resulted in children being under its care, custody, supervision, control or authority."

Religion of JW's aka Organization/Institution have responsibility for every member, because, the one of, purpose of the organization is to bring together people (families and children) who will today become part of the New World, with the prospect to survive Armageddon. That can be/will be possible if members are organized and united, under the leadership of "Representatives" who are "Appointed" for "guiding and feeding" JHVH people here on Earth. GB is that Body, as they teach, who explaining and teaching and instructing members how they should live to be able to pleased God. 

System in WTJWorg is set in exactly such way, to empower Administration aka Elders to have supervision, control and authority over members in various modality, sometimes stronger and sometimes weaker emphasized. Sometimes directly, sometimes indirectly. 

Of course, the personal perception of members about an idea that comes in written or verbal form by spiritual leaders cannot be ruled out. But, that is why there should be a responsibility of the Organization for every word spoken "in the name of God."

There are a lot of "teachers" and a lot of "leaders" in JW congregations. And there should be, I guess, just One. :))

3 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Perhaps 98 of the backlog of cases are rank-and-file and he has had trouble arguing that all JWs are "ordained ministers" and representatives of the WTS

All baptized Witnesses are ordained ministers and share in the preaching and teaching work. - https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/no-paid-clergy/

In question about "representatives", as i am aware, "representatives" are those elders who are appointed by GB for some special service and/or task. Service as CO, for example. The task can be temporary, so the role of the "representative" in such case is only for a certain thing and for a certain time.

It would be interesting and useful to understand similarities and differences of these two concepts. I found this in short searching on internet.   http://www.hisholychurch.org/ministries/church/documents/ordained.pdf

1) Ordination by God is an unseen act of a calling, and acceptance of that calling.

2) Here in Acts 6:3, the appointment to administer this office took place after an ‘election’ by the people of men to carry out the daily ministration.

33 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

TTH speaks of the ARC as going after the others as institutions but going after the JWs as a religion.

Perhaps you know what he meant with this. And perhaps TTH knows too. Maybe you will find time to explain. As for me, WTJWorg is Organization and  Institution (institution/noun -  an organization founded for a religious, educational, professional, or social purpose, ...... according to google search) 

I don't know what difference @TrueTomHarley have in mind. Perhaps he see "JWs" as people inside this particular Organization/Institution as some sort of "free people" which form a fraternity, and are somehow "outside" of Administration that, de facto, run the Church. 

But, answering on baptismal questions and that strict performed act, made by candidate, before witnesses, are in fact verbal contract with Organization, and supposedly with God.  Why i said supposedly? Because of the content of baptismal questions. And because of how baptism is performed.

Second baptismal question is pure administrative format. A format that automatically classifies a candidate, member, or follower into one of many religions. There is no Bible support for such question.

The act of immersion is not accompanied by the words of Jesus: "Then Jesus came to them and said: All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, ...

31 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

"elder-congregant" or "priest-penitent" privilege.

Here exists interesting, or better to say, worrisome inconsistency and discrepancy over who is who in the Organization. Over doctrinal idea. Over internal and public identification who are JW people and how they functioning/operate. 

WTJWorg Publications explain that JWs do not have clerical and lay classes. And that is obviously not true. Because of claims made by WTJWorg Representatives before Public and before Courts. 

Next thing is this. Because WTJWorg claims how elders are not clergy ("we have no paid clergy" GB said,..... but you have unpaid clergy i would say this way),.... to continue: If in WTJWorg Clergy not exists, than there is no need to have, to call for "priest-penitent" ("elder-congregant") privilege at all.  If somebody in congregation come and tell to elder something, than elder is also in obligation to be in silence about it, to anyone inside and outside congregation. Or not? Perhaps he would be in obligation to report crime to secular authorities only, but not to other elders too.  

That idea of this sort of "clergy privilege" is very strained in WTJWorg. Sitting on two chairs.

5 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Since the Watchtower holds the Bible as it's Constitution

Wrong. WTJWorg is a Company. The Charter is their constitution , written and signed by hands of human, President and/or  other Administrative members. 

10 hours ago, César Chávez said:

You either apply it for both sides, , or you leave ...

Confusing idea. You want "separation" of church and state aka separation between ARC and WTYWorg and now suggesting me I have to to apply same measure for secular and religious entity. 

17 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

On 3/9/2021 at 11:12 PM, César Chávez said:

Then, the ARC ignorance shouldn't have dealt with scriptural matters. That was the point of Bro Jackson.

What point of bro J?

About what is ARC ignorant? ..... after whole ARC process and Study case 29? 

Before beginning in 2015 ARC wasn't aware how WTJWorg Australia , as Institution, handling with CSA inside Institution aka Church. Now, they are no longer in ignorance, and not many of us are ignorant anymore.  

48 minutes ago, Witness said:

Can you tell me where Jesus spoke God's name? 

I also don't recall any Bible verse. It can be that Jesus, despite his "rebellious attitude" about Jew's customs and interpretations of "Moses's Law" (washing hands, working on Sabbath and similar) in many cases, he also didn't want to provoke spiritual leaders too much, also. If that was the case, perhaps he didn't publicly spoke God's name for same reason as all other Jews of his time. Just idea.    

13 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Then, the ARC ignorance shouldn't have dealt with scriptural matters. That was the point of Bro Jackson.

What point of bro J?

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

brother Jackson asked the ARC to take full control

Brother Jackson is not entitled to ask nothing from ARC or from Australia government. Brother Jackson, if want change in Australia inner politic, have to vote for such change or to participate and involve himself, in democratic way, how to change legislative and laws and other social climate in society for better solutions about problem. He is not in position to demand or to suggest. He can only express his opinion. .....but as i am aware of mentality in WTJWorg GB and other Administrative staff, the practice in WTJWorg is that they expect from a government to make a decision or suggestion, and then GB says: we will accept it / we will not accept it. In such scenario GB is not interested for, what you called, "full control" from secular authorities.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

If brother Jackson asked the ARC to take full control of the child abuse law, which "they" refused, that makes your statement false.

Is my statement "false or true" depends of fact in which corner you sitting and who you want to defend. But my "statement" is observation and publication of fact: WTJWorg deleted their first decision and make new statement how they will join The Redress ... now, because of (money, charity status and imagine, because of Romans 13)

Do we have to believe how GB+Helpers+Lawyers forget about existence of Romans 13 in their first decision?  :))

4 hours ago, César Chávez said:

This brings the separation of church and state,

I think about existence of some sort of relativity in this relationship and about understanding about wording "separation". Romans 13 demand that individuals and by that church too, be in obedience to secular government. When you must obey somebody than you are not fully, or at all, neutral and separated from somebody. 

We have the newest example how WTJWorg refuse to join "The Scheme", redress, but after some time WTJWorg explained their change in stance with Romans 13. This is sort of proof how true "neutrality" or true "separation" not existing and it is not possible to exist because of Romans 13. 

10 hours ago, César Chávez said:

What is the difference between "fornication" and "rape", "adultery" and "Murder"? Now you want the Org to take up criminal actions, when they don't have that authority under man's law?

What powers were available in ancient times, that are no longer available, now? By this scheme of yours. I would ask the ARC and the Australian Parliament, why they decided against Brother Jackson's suggestion, of giving Australia Government FULL authority over child abuse matters, all declined and some territories didn't change their clergy privilege.

How would "fornication" be solved on their own? Between the players. How does this stay inline with keeping the congregation clean. How about "adultery"? What you are saying, the wife or husband affected doesn't have the right to know, they have a disgusting cheating spouse. Make sense man!

How about inappropriate touching. If someone feels uncomfortable, speaks to that person, yet that person continues, what you're saying, that person should just let it go, get a life, and accept the inappropriate touching?

Make sense man! By these hypotheticals, you are allowing the very thing you are advocating against.

Try using reason with your argument Srecko, and think about the hypotheticals I just mentioned, then replay apply your thought process, not just for your benefit, but to benefit idiots like Pudgy

For sure, you bring good questions. But you still want that few thousands years old rules and methods of Jews be in power today. That is why, enough hard situations for victims and wrongdoer and all beetwen, WTJWorg applicatiions of verses makes more difficult. Because they (GB and elders) navigate between sin and crime, and by that beetwen spiritual and literal punsihment, and beetwen religious and secular reality. 

On 3/7/2021 at 7:17 PM, César Chávez said:

WOW! The one that needs to reread this passage is you. You are failing to understand the true context of it. Don't interpret it to suit your false claim, but in the spirit it was intended.

Again, the verses: 

(Matthew 18:15-17) ¹⁵ “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. ¹⁶ But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. ¹⁷ If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector

WTJWorg teaches that there are two kinds of sin: Big and small (Minor and gross). Elders do not want to deal with small sins, but say that the members need to solve them among themselves. Every great sin (serious wrongdoing) should be immediately reported to the elders (and therefore it is an assembly, elders=congregation).

Which is why you need to solve a small problem with your brother on your own, if you might still report it to the elders and the congregation.
Secondly, what is the use of Jesus' advice if you must not try to solve a big (gross) sin on your own with your brother, but must immediately report it to the elders?

Read this please, and you will see how Shepherd book interpret one situation in connection to Mat 18 and not giving support to your WOW: 

The congregation would not consider forming a judicial committee unless the offended Christian had taken steps one and two of Matthew 18:15, 16 and had initiated step three as described in Matthew 18:17.—lvs pp. 253-254. 25. If asked, elders could participate in step two, but they do not represent the body of elders. If the matter proceeds to step three, any elders who were witnesses in step two could serve only as witnesses in step three. They would not be used to serve on the judicial committee. - Shepherd 2019

Even your publication speaking contrary to general opinion (general interpretation) about meaning of verses in Matt 18. 

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Tell Trump and Biden to get over their spat. Tell Putin to stop being mean. Tell Xi that Urgyers are people, too! Tell ISIS that we must make love, not war.

Try with ... to excommunicate them (dfd them) :)).

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

This whole JW thing about the whole world being wicked, is wrong.

When Bible said how "whole world is under the power of devil", that is not proof how whole world is automatically evil, but only that ruler of this World is devil. But because JW beliefs how Jesus is King from 1914, that would mean how Jesus is Ruler and how this World is under power of Jesus, too. Or not? That is question for WTJWorg Bible Scholars.

But back to first issue. Humanity is not more or less evil because of JW interpretations. Would we say how Eve and Adam became evil because of devil question about fruit? Did the evil influence of the devil come through the question? Or through some bad mental energy? Or by spoken words? Or by visualization  with snake? 

People are in capacity to doing bad things, but people are ready to help too. Also today, centuries after Adam and Eve perfection. So, whole world is mixed with good and evil things no matter of devil. Even in JW Spiritual Paradise we  see good and evil "fruits".

12 hours ago, Witness said:

I believe it is better to be on the safe side, than to create a pronounceable name for God, especially since “hovah” is a Hebrew word meaning “a ruin, a disaster”.  https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h1943

This is very serious. 

Just speculation, but what if each of 4 letters represents one word? Similar to expresion: And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am