Srecko Sostar

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It doesn’t matter what the elders do or do not do. It doesn’t matter what they do or do not believe. A member has every right to go to the police and by doing so, they bring no reproach at all on the congregation.

Let be reminded on "Shepherd book" 2010.

19. Child abuse is a crime. Never suggest to anyone that they should not report an allegation of child abuse to the police or other authorities. If you are asked, make it clear that whether to report the matter to the authorities or not is a personal

Chapter 12 131 WAT.0003.001.0132

decision for each individual to make and that there are no congregation sanctions for either decision. Elders will not criticize anyone who reports such an allegation to the authorities. If the victim wishes to make a report, it is his or her absolute right to do so. —Gal. 6:5.

According to what all of us know very well, facts are:

A) elders doing and not doing what GB say them

B) elders believe and not believe what GB say them 

BOE letters and changed editions of "Shepherd books" proves this!

The "theocratic culture" nurtured in the assemblies by the Corporation regarding “secular courts” did not allow what it allows today. 

10 hours ago, Anna said:

Back to the topic of CSA

There is absolutely nothing one can do to control what members do in the privacy of their own homes, or other people's homes, regardless their status in the congregation.  Elder "oh so nice" at the KH could be touching Jane, his 6 year old daughter every night during bedtime story time. Ministerial servant "extra helpful" could be touching Tommy, his 12 year old Bible student, while conducting a Bible study with him at his home, with the unsuspecting single mother in the next room; grateful that she could approach a servant to help her with the fatherly task of educating her fatherless son. None of these things the congregation or JW org can be held responsible for. It would not stand up in court. This is why in the case of Candace Conti, for example, it was so important for the court to establish that she was molested during field service, because that was recognized as a church based activity, which the congregation could be held responsible for.

Years later, when Jane and Tommy have reached adulthood, they finally disclose their abuse. Not to the elders, but to the media. And later file a lawsuit. What is the congregation/JW org. supposed to do?

I am not saying the case of Jane and Tommy happens in all cases. Not at all. There are many various scenarios. But the case of Jane and Tommy are based on true stories that actually happened.
Then we have other cases where suspicions of a persons vile acts were reported while the victim was still a child (unfortunately that does not happen very often as children rarely disclose) and usually these cases are reported to the police by the parent. Often times the police don't do anything! If the parent only reports it to the congregation, then the elders have to use their judgement to verify the facts. This is the only time it's possible for the elders to screw up. They may not believe the child or think the child may be exaggerating especially if the perpetrator denies. The child may be saying the truth, and the perpetrator may be a liar. The case gets put on the back burner. A year later the perpetrator molest another child, who says nothing, then another child, who also says nothing...until we have several children who have been molested by the original perpetrator. Now THIS is BAD indeed. Years later one of the victims comes forward and takes the case to court. Now it looks as if we harbor pedophiles. But in fact it's because the elders screwed up, made a mistake in judgement, not because they believed the guy was really a pedophile, but because they did not believe he was a pedophile. Big difference. Bad mistake, no doubt about it.

So you are barking up the wrong tree when you are trying to find fault with the JW organization but really, it is a problem with the organization's members (elders, servants, publishers) when they do bad things in secret. At the KH everyone can put on an act, but who you really are becomes manifest in private. The organization has no control there.  Sometimes, even with simple things, the congregation overseer's job is comparable to trying to herd cats. Trying to motivate people to cooperate is a nightmare sometimes. And bad people will do what they want, and of course they will do it in secret, and when chalenged they will deny and deny.

How would you handle that?

In WTJWorg, a structure is set up, a hierarchy that is both - spiritual and administrative. According to this measure, the WTJWorg Institution (I remind you again, JW lawyers claim in Court that according to the hierarchical system they are the same as the Catholic Church) determines who is allowed to say what and who is allowed to do what and how to do it.
Because of such an "organized system", because the JW Church is an Organization, a Legal Body aka a Corporation and the people who are in the governing structures of this Organization have responsibility for the way they act and for the consequences of how they react to all events within each assembly. If the Organization is not able to “lead” the herd, if it is not able to have “under control” the elders and their ability to handle everything they have to solve in the assembly then it is a good question you ask; How would you handle that?

The second part of the problem is the mentality of people (members), shame, hiding, feeling powerless, the question of who and how to ask for help, caution. 

And then we have the question of trust between members, trust between members and clergy (because elders want to be like Catholic clergy by privilege) , so we again have JW lawyers asking the Court Clergy Privilege, for what is being condemned as “unbiblical” in WTJWorg publications and in members mind. There are double measures inside congregations, favoritism and other "institutional (organizational) sins". And many more. So you ask good question:  How would you handle that?

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

I should have used the world "when".  And then you go off on a totally different subject about research on this concept............ srecko .... you always go to the ploy of semantics to change the point of the thread. 

You asked about 2 kinds of unrighteousness...... I give the answer..... without considering this (my use of the word "if" sends you off on a totally other subject...... ....can you not concentrate on one subject at a time...... or is it a deliberate  ploy to troll?

"If he gets  a resurrection in the new system" ??

I don't know what made questionable about this man, and you said IF. Jesus promised him that he will be with him in Paradise, so is your IF showing lack of faith in Jesus promise to criminal man? And about when and where he will live is not in our interpretations.

Yes, Arauna, you are right. I should have known you had faith in every word of Jesus.

But I also assumed you had faith in most of what the WTJWorg interpretation is, so your IF confused me a bit. Because WTJWorg explains how this criminal will be with Jesus in Paradise not in heaven but on earth. That claim can be true, or it can be wrong. 140 years of publishing at WTJWorg gives us reason to be wary. :))

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

t is not trust. It is acquiescence. He freely admits that ‘his’ side has nothing. But it does not stop him from sabotaging those who have decided, that since that is the case with conventional paradigms, they will look outside them. He has nothing. And he wants to make sure you don’t either. It has become his mission in life, his warped “good news.”.............................................etc etc

A wave of inspiration flooded you ?  

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

The man who was next to Jesus when he died the death which he inherited from Adam.  If he gets  a resurrection in the new system he will be resurrected from "sheol" or 'hades'. He comes out of the death we all inherited from Adam.  If he rebels after this in the new earthly system there is no ransom any longer to pay for his sins. It is a sin to the degree of Adam and Eve, he will see "second death" - Gehenna. 

The bible itself says that the 'unrighteous' will be raised up Acts 24:15. But it also shows in Revelation 20 that those who are on the earth after Armageddon and rebel against Jehovah when Satan is let lose will see everlasting destruction - Gehenna. I suggest you read revelation 20 for yourself.

"If he gets  a resurrection in the new system" ??

I don't know what made questionable about this man, and you said IF. Jesus promised him that he will be with him in Paradise, so is your IF showing lack of faith in Jesus promise to criminal man? And about when and where he will live is not in our interpretations.

----------------------------------------

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

According to what you want to tell me, it seems how Abyss is/will be on Earth?? .... and devil be locked somewhere on Earth for literal 1000 years??

How is possible that book full of symbolism you and WTJWorg interpreted in a way that some of visions have literal fulfillment and some stayed symbolic and have another meaning??

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

What I saw in your last comment, is a trust in worldly governments.

Sorry, wrong view. Perhaps naivety is my characteristic, but I have no trust in many things.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Because they really have faith and "trust' Jehovah ..... they know that those who deserve destruction will be destroyed and will not live through Armageddon. They trust that jehovah can see the heart..... and those 'unrighteous ones' who will be inclined to obey the government of christ will get a resurrection. They will be resurrected at the right time of Jesus' choice. They know that people will make mistakes in judgment day but will grow to perfection. The 144000 and christ will decide the steps to be taken.  They also know that satan will be tied for the 1000 years,.....  so when a person rebels against God (without being misled), he will be judged immediately by the one who can see the heart. Second death.

... and those 'unrighteous ones' who will be inclined to obey the government of christ will get a resurrection.

Confusing conclusion. And based on what? If JW's claims how exists at least two group of "unrighteous",  to one group the heart inclines to Jesus, as you said, and to others it does not incline to Jesus (??), then it would be logical to conclude that even among the "righteous who will be resurrected" there are also some characteristics (one, two or more) that make them fit and/or unfit for resurrection. Interpretation you and WTJWorg offer is strange. You and WTJWorg make Bible simple quote to be  theologically obscure, darkened. Your doctrine making gradation of injustice, of unrighteousness. To some level ones unrighteousness is acceptable, and/but after some point unrighteousness of other is not acceptable. If I remember correctly, the idea being advocated, is that these are “unrighteous” who have not heard or understood the preaching about Jesus, about good news, proclaimed in the past before WTJWorg and maybe today in time of JW global preaching.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Under resurrection in the insight book (I speak from memory) it gives the mathematical realities of the resurrection. It shows that 20 billion people could be resurrected in the first 500 years.  If the first people are resurrected and thereafter only every 33 years..... and given this time to learn about jehovah..... they will then be able to teach the next ones who are resurrected......Exponentially they will have taught all resurrected ones at 33 year increments within the first 500 years.  

Merely human interpretations and guessing. WTJWorg is in chaos about such things and producing misconceptions in the thoughts and heart of the members.

Adam and Eve need few minutes to came from perfection to imperfection. Why would reverse process take more time? Someone has faith or no faith:)) 

4 hours ago, César Chávez said:

At some point, you would have to concede, whatever approach is made, man will NOT be able to solve. Should religion, then become part of government?

Perhaps this is how it could be said; Man is the cause of the problem, so man could also be the solution to the problem.
Here is an example/fact you provide of how the authorities, various commissions and investigations are stuck in resolving the CSA. While the competent people, in a secular and religious society, try to improve the situation or obstruct the solution of the problem, during that time old and new victims of violence suffer.
The entry of religion, whatever religion is supposed to mean, will not contribute to a solution. Eg. WTJWorg is partly a religion, but by its actions in investigations or in the courts it has primarily sought to protect itself, its Administration. Similar is done by other Institutions, religious or not.

Furthermore, I see the following problem. JW people speak and hope for the Kingdom as the solution to all problems. But I think that vision is a bit vague to them as well. Or the vision is distorted by misconceptions of what and how “their” Kingdom will work.
The kingdom (as the vision of most JW members) is like any other creation similar to what is around us. The JWs explain that the Kingdom is a theocracy, hence the rule of God. If this were so then no physical, earthly elements should be present. Earthly elements are levers of power and hierarchy. So in the Kingdom of God there must be no Kings, Princes, Elders, Ministerial servants, Governing Body, Helpers etc.
JW preach the opposite. Their vision of the Kingdom of God is presented with all the elements that exist today not only in their Organization, but also in the Catholic Church (remember the statement of JW lawyers in Court that they are organized on the same hierarchical principle as the Catholic Church) and in secular terms. Thus, one group (minority) shapes policy and determines direction, the other group (majority) follows instructions.

So even in this kind of Kingdom of God, there will need to be a system of oversight, judiciary, and repression. Question is; Who will do this? Human? Is it really a theocracy? 

Until the individual himself stops doing bad but only does good, there is no Kingdom.

30 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“You enjoy your job, don’t you?” said my mentor in another congregation. “I haven’t said so,” I replied.

”No, but you never said you didn’t,” was his reply.

:))) it is the conversation of two sages, that is, philosophers

Let me comment again on this. They (people) could conclude the following: If you say nothing AGAINST something, then others might (perhaps rightly) conclude that 1) the person knows nothing about the true state of affairs or 2) that his silence justifies, supports and allows the status quo.

Of course there is also point 3) and 4) but i would not want to complicate :))

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“You enjoy your job, don’t you?” said my mentor in another congregation. “I haven’t said so,” I replied.

”No, but you never said you didn’t,” was his reply.

:))) it is the conversation of two sages, that is, philosophers

@JW Insider

You have very, very good memory and you are skilled in computer use. Great. I envy you ... a little.  

Just now, xero said:

I'm not sure those should be your best examples. When you're dealing with greek, there's a latitude of way one might express it in english - context is everything. Not only this, NWT isn't unique in its matter of translating it in this manner.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/matthew/9-18-compare.html

Thanks, but these are not my examples but Bible text ... and some English translations. I am not dealing with Greek language but with nowadays languages (English and Croatian translations)

Is she sick?
Has she already died?
Will she die while we talk and walk? 

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

In America they call everything opinion.  a lie is not an opinion.

Yeah. But it is optional method for some people. :))

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Schrecko  said JWs are changing scripture.  You called it an opinion - I said it is a lie.  I should have said a 'blatant' lie to say we change scripture. We do not.  So just chill.

I didn't ask this issue, but i will provide you with one example of changing Bible text.

 When Jesus had again crossed over by boat to the other side of the lake, a large crowd gathered around him while he was by the lake. ²² Then one of the synagogue leaders, named Jairus, came, and when he saw Jesus, he fell at his feet. ²³ He pleaded earnestly with him,  24     “My  little daughter is dying. Please come and put your hands on her so that she will be healed and live.”  So Jesus went with him. - mark 5 23 niv

After Jesus had crossed again by boat to the opposite shore, a large crowd gathered together to him, and he was by the sea.+ ²²  One of the presiding officers of the synagogue, named Jaʹi·rus, now came, and on catching sight of him, he fell at his feet.+ ²³  He pleaded with him many times, saying: “My little daughter is extremely ill.* (*near her end) Please come and put your hands on her+ so that she may get well and live.” ²⁴  At that Jesus went with him, and a large crowd was following him and pressing against him. - mark 5 23 nwt

While he was saying this, a synagogue leader came and knelt before him and said, "My daughter has just died. But come and put your hand on her, and she will live." -  matt 9 18 niv

While he was telling them these things, look! a certain ruler who had approached did obeisance to him, saying: “By now my daughter must be dead, but come and lay your hand on her, and she will come to life. - matt 9 18 nwt

What is the truth about Jairus' daughter? To whom we should believe, to Mark or Matthew? Or to NWT idea where they changed text into 3rd possibility;  By now my daughter must be dead ??

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

I studied with one family where the husband was a policeman, the wife took a year of studying and long late-night hours with me on the phone to help her overcome her smoking addiction. They were baptized together. Their two children were too young at the time, but one has been baptized since. This is a sad situation for me, because we love the family and have been close, but he is an elder now and realizes that I didn't believe in the 1914 chronology because of things he remembered in the way I studied it with him. He confirmed this by asking me directly, and has now asked that we have no more contact.

For a (former) job as a police officer, he needed a very good memory.
Today, for the (current) job of an elder, that is a good advantage.
But unfortunately, he lacks flexibility in thinking that would amortize two different views of 1914.
I wonder, how did you teach him that about 1914 that he accepted official teaching and yet could notice the difference (which has obviously worried him all this time) that made him remove you, today, from his list of friends?

18 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

I'm imperfect, how about you?

I am more imperfect than you,  because your argumentation  is out of my ability to understand both, WTJWorg and your logic you try to defend.  

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

How about this

1930-1985 https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200028612

1986-2021 https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200277174

On this two links we can find tens and hundreds doctrinal changes. 8 points you made looks poor.  

Thanks for down vote. It seems how you accepted a bad custom. You know, Bad company corrupts good character

:)) 

43 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

My question to you would be, what qualifies you into thinking you can sit in judgment on who qualifies in Gods eyes as his servants that take that responsibility as spiritual leaders?

The Scripture say that weeds and wheat grow together. So neither of us should be in a position to judge, but to distinguish two types of plants. Of course, now anyone can go further and challenge someone’s ability to distinguish one thing from another. :))

49 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

that is NOT there to "revoke" as you put it the works of Christ and the word of God.

WTJWorg religious teachers, scholars with GB+Helpers, "revoking" past and present teachings (each time a “new light” shines on them).

55 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Therefore, God's Holy Spirit "clarifies" by allowing those spiritual leaders to "understand"

To prove this, you need to provide some authentic evidence of the continuity and permanence of understanding that does not change due to “human error” of past and present GB.

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

Do you honestly believe, God's Holy Spirit ended with the death of Christ?

My opinion is irrelevant, because GB claims that they were/are not inspired as apostles and some others in FDS in the First Century.

3 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

This depends on whose doing the clarification and their personal intent!! If someone is going to use scripture, they need to know the proper context. If people are going to use articles published, they need to understand the proper context in the spirit it was written. By Bible understanding!!

Let someone tell us; Who brought the "beliefs clarified" on the table? Were it the Those who invented and advocated “vague beliefs,” or were these new beliefs generated by some New People in the Administration?
So your idea that there are “qualified people” who are the only ones authorized to revoke the authority of their predecessors does not actually bring any solution to the problem in WTJWorg. 

What then should the phrases mean: “know the proper context?” or “personal intent”? or "the spirit of the written" or "the biblical understanding"?

Almost nothing. Or should these phrases (in your JW context) justify some and belittle others?

8 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Hindsight 20/20

... do you think, "beliefs clarified" ? 

11 hours ago, xero said:

I don't believe in a "we" when it comes to taking responsibility for "my" moral decisions.

Me too. But few details exist in this issue, also.

I don't believe in many of the things (what) GB teach others. But JW people holds such "unbelievers" responsible for their decisions in this matter. They think they are to blame (for living organization or if they die in Armageddon, etc). They think they are to blame if they speak out against GB doctrines. 

That would mean, GB can say whatever they want, but it’s your fault if you respect them in their "foolishness". When JW member decide to not respect GB decisions (and perhaps he/she becomes ex-JW) is that "moral" or "immoral " decision?

Some acts of "faithful" servants in the past contributed to collective punishment. And God didn't ask (did not hold a referendum) what and how every single man, woman and child feel about King's decisions and behavior. In such examples no one cared about "we or my". All nation suffered because of "my" or "we".  

7 hours ago, xero said:

Your posts make me feel sad. I don't know why you keep on the attack. It isn't helping you or anyone else I can see.

I remember a brother once talking about someone, I forget who who was never a firebrand in service, commenting, cleaning the hall or anything else of this sort become as he described it "A pioneer apostate".

I wondered why people who didn't believe JW's had anything to offer would expend so much energy attacking them. I mean if what JW's have is vomit, then why go back and spend time examining the vomit?

It is somewhat true what you say. Talking about bad things is poisonous. But should we wait for “little kids” or maybe “stones” to start talking about it?

10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Please re-read my remark:

”

If things are as JWs say they are, then they are providing a nice friendly heads-up and ought to be thanked on that account. 

If they are not as JWs say they are, then no harm is done to anyone. JWs are left with egg on their face and they are willing to take that risk.

Either way it is not something to get all histrionic about.”

What do you think, would it be possible not to include God in all these "right and wrong predictions" of WTJWorg?

6 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Okay, I will take your remark more seriously this time,

Thanks! :))

7 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

but it’s hard because it is just too silly.

Please, go to JWTV and 2020 Annual Meeting with Kenneth Cooke and A. Morris with their (silly) confirmation/answer they made about, who dies and who not dies at Armageddon.  

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This is an apostate lie.

Things will be perfect in the new system. Even clothes will be just in the color you want them to be. There will be no need to dye.

Apostate lies? :))) Tom, you forget your first love aka "first truth".

Association with the congregation (Organization aka WTJWorg) of Christians who recognize that God is pleased, not with rites and meaningless ceremonies, but with worship that is offered “with spirit and truth,” is vital to your salvation. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1967880

The other sheep should never forget that their salvation depends on their active support of Christ’s anointed “brothers” ( aka GB) still on earth. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2012205#h=2

You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth—But How?

A third requirement is that we be associated with God’s channel, his organization. God has always used an organization. For example, only those in the ark in Noah’s day survived the Flood, and only those associated with the Christian congregation in the first century had God’s favor. (Acts 4:12) Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1983124#h=1