Srecko Sostar

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

So?

Did anybody say she has to be a Terminator towards everyone else?

If she loved everything about JWs she would be one. She’s not, so it must mean she doesn’t.

It makes her defense of JW all the more powerful.

You went in other/different direction with conclusion, than me. She is willing to accept a “truth” that is the opposite of a JW “truth”. WTJWorg does not accept anyone's "truth", but only its "truth".

Also, WTJWorg says how people who think and believe and accept all sorts of "truths" (like her), but not WTJWorg "truths" will dye in Armageddon. By that she will end up in "soon" Armageddon. Will you or other JW's try to help her to see "the truth" and be "saved" by joining the Organization? Or you (JW's) will just stay away and be satisfied that she wrote an article in your favor? Will you make the effort and try to free her from the Cesnur trap? :)) 

11 hours ago, xero said:

I'd say that what's making the nations mad right now is the nihilist ideology of postmodernism.

WTJWorg scholars and GB, they have constructed and deconstructed “various truths” in the last 140 years of existence.  

9 hours ago, Witness said:

opening comment:

“Tomorrow's WT. They're going to lap up this paragraph. One thing I hate, all of us who have left and are truly happy away from the organization and prospering are called wicked and our happiness superficial. Makes me sick 🤮”

8 hours ago, xero said:

It seems to me that paragraph is speaking of wicked people who appear to be happy.

8 hours ago, Witness said:

The best life ever and the worst life ever are both found in your organization; all based on servitude to men.  

I don’t remember God decreing anywhere that only the “good” would be “happy”. And that the "evil" will die "unhappy." In other words, to claim what the WT article claims, that the "wicked" are only "outwardly" happy (superficial happiness), is nonsense.

34 minutes ago, xero said:

It's all a global mental illness

Globalism of all sorts :))

26 minutes ago, Witness said:

Jer 51:7

Babylon was a gold cup in the Lord’s hand;
    she made the whole earth drunk

The nations drank her wine;
    therefore they have now gone mad.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

The same reason former members criticize their former religion, to try to discreet that religion, they believe wronged them.

I disagree with this view. I don't feel "wronged" by WTJWorg or with my former belongings. Because they didn't "wronged" me (in strict sense) but they "wronged" things we call; truth, honesty, justice etc. And only after that we can say they "wronged" somebody personally (or individually/collectively), if such person/collective value things such as truth, honesty, justice etc.   

6 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Holly Folk

Western Today: Of course this is a matter of perspective, but in your view as a religious scholar, is there such a thing as a “bad religion?”

HF: "'Bad Religion' is a rock band from Los Angeles! Seriously, let me say that religions of all sizes and faith traditions do things all the time that I personally don’t like. But it is important to distinguish between the criminal, the ethical and the aesthetic. In both mainstream and marginal religions, things may happen that are unethical but are not technically illegal. And a religion may have beliefs or practices that I, or you, might personally find distasteful, but to which members have no objection. These are important differentiations in thinking about the behavior of a controversial group.

We also need to distinguish things done by individuals who belong to a religion and acts committed by members at their religion’s direction. This is important for both fairness, and to accurately understand the way violence can occur in religious settings. Statistically, the majority of Americans are either Roman Catholic or Protestant. And so it’s technically accurate to say most murderers in the United States are either Catholic or Protestant. But it would be a stretch to argue that these religions were encouraging members to commit murder.

There have definitely been instances where members of religions have committed violent crimes. Yet in some of the most inflammatory cases, like the Peoples Temple, the Order of the Solar Temple, and Aum Shinrikyo, the majority of lower-ranking members were not aware of the destructiveness perpetrated by an elite hierarchy. I think these instances hold an important insight for your question – it means that in even the most controversial religions, many if not most believers will not be “dangerous.” This definitely needs to shape how we think of religious difference." - https://westerntoday.wwu.edu/features/cults-new-christianities-and-religious-persecution-in-the-internet-age-a-qa-with-holly-folk

When you or some other JW member seek/use statements from other people who defend the WTJWorg position on one issue, then you must be aware that that same person is defending the position of other religions, against which the WTJWorg has a lot to say.

The tolerance of HF is greater than the tolerance of JW members and GB have to other religions. :))

Upbringing. It is a difficult task for parents.

There are also mistakes in methods and types of lessons. Lessons on how to react and how to show emotions. How to stand up for another/each other and how to stand up for yourself.

I found interesting claims on JWorg about GB. 

The Governing Body is a small group of mature Christians who provide direction for Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide. Their work is twofold:

They oversee the preparation of Bible-based instruction through the publications, meetings, and schools of Jehovah’s Witnesses.—Luke 12:42.

They supervise the worldwide work of Jehovah’s Witnesses by directing our public ministry and overseeing the use of donated assets.

The Governing Body follows the pattern set by “the apostles and elders in Jerusalem” in the first century, who made important decisions on behalf of the entire Christian congregation. (Acts 15:2) Like those faithful men, the members of the Governing Body are not the leaders of our organization.

The Governing Body has established six committees to oversee various aspects of our work, and each member serves on one or more of these committees. - https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/governing-body-jw-helpers/

Committees job is to: ... supervises ...oversees...directs)

I found this claims about "non leadership" status in WTJWorg confusing and is semantic dodge. Article says;  GB are not leaders. But their roles are explained with terminology that supports leadership position. They oversee, they supervise, they make important decisions. :))  

And now we have 2 quotes:

Today, the Governing Body represents the faithful and discreet slave class. There was a similar arrangement in the first century. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2009443

3 hours ago, Witness said:

^“Representing the royal priesthood are appointed elders, who serve in positions of responsibility in congregations of Jehovah’s people around the earth. These men deserve our respect and wholehearted support, whether they are of the anointed or not. Why? Because, through his holy spirit, Jehovah has appointed the older men to their positions. (Hebrews 13:7,17) How can that be?  w02 8/1 p. 13-14

It seems how FDS is "represented by" two Administration bodies: with GB and with Elders. And controversy going further with this statements:

The faithful slave must be made up of anointed Christians on earth. Such ones are called “a royal priesthood” .......It is only fitting that members of that “royal priesthood” have a direct share in teaching fellow believers the truth.-  https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/w20130715/who-is-faithful-discreet-slave/

:)) and also tragic theology for JW members.

3 minutes ago, xero said:

You missed the point. I went w/everyone in FS. It's not like I conducted and went home.

I didn't say that about you. :))   

1 hour ago, xero said:

I rebelled for a time in my own way by not signing up to auxiliary pioneer, and then turn in (really did the time) in excess of the time required. This I did just to irritate some elders.

I know a JW brother who has done regular pioneering service for years without an appointment. But he wanted that appointment so badly, and the elders refused to give it to him. One year (1985) he went to Belgrade, then there was the Chief Bethel for Yugoslavia. After talks with the main representative, Brother Miloš, the Zagreb elders and Zagreb's Bethel were influenced, and he was finally appointed.

1 hour ago, xero said:

I told them I was that guy who said he wouldn't go into the vineyard, but did anyway.

:)))

1 hour ago, xero said:

meetings for FS (so the argument for being encouraging was moot - physical presence is certainly encouraging)

One elder in ex congregation doing similar. He came to a meeting for FS, gave a speech and then went home or for some other job :))

18 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yes. This is why no Israelites crossed the Jordan River. Moses got himself disqualified, so everyone else climbed atop the mountain to die with him.

"First sort" of Israelites who supported "collectivism" died in wilderness while walking 40 years. And completely new generation crossed Jordan River. But same/similar scenario was repeated several times after this "river crossing". Two of them was monumental ... falls of Jerusalem for example. Mix of collectivism and individualism.

3 hours ago, xero said:

I understand where you're coming from, but I have to disagree as to differences in theology as being irrelevant. Take the Declaration of Independence, where it says "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." At the time this was written slavery existed in the colonies and wasn't wiped out at that time. It did, however establish a vector w/in the text as to the ideal. Theologies likewise carry within them a vector w/in, a text as to the ideal. I hold these things to not be irrelevant even if we are unable to fully realize them at present

To some extent, we have established the fact that all people are equal, and that everyone is capable of doing good and doing evil.
What is the common theology of the Catholic Church and WTJWorg? Love God and love your neighbor. In fact, it is the only important thread of Jesus' teaching. The practice of these principles in life is colorful. Catholics prove they are able to be at opposite ends, but JW members prove the same. Some commit “greater” sins and some “minor” sins. By the same Law, the Law does not recognize lesser and /or bigger sins, but only whether or not you have done something. Perhaps majority of JW members will never participate in murdering, but if they not give "glass of water" to someone, they can also be judged as "guilty for sin" and be punished with same sentences as murderer. In such scenario JW ideology/theology is very much irrelevant.

Vectors in WTJWorg theology proves nothing, but decades of failed teachings and expectations, human instructions.

It is nice to have some, few or many ideals, for sure, maybe one day we will get to that place.  

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

All JWs do have the responsibility because they follow the insrtutions of the GB, through the Watchtower and through the Elders. 

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

JWs are not suppoaed to have free will. They are supposed to do exactly as they are told.  The misuse of scripture such as 'Be obedient to those taking the lead anomg you'. Hebrews 13 :17

JW members, perhaps not knowing or because they are not fully aware, generally, with whole hearth supports "collective responsibility idea" and by that shares "guilty" for their GB "sins" (false teachings, wrong instructions, disobeying secular laws in many cases).

On other hand, Bible gave examples how looks "collective responsibility" and "collective punishment" and in some cases "individual responsibility" and "collective guilt and punishment".

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

He yields on his ridiculous comparison of institutional abuse in various religions to abuse in families that happen to be religious.

Apologize, you get it wrong. @Anna used Holly Folk research, who said ARC was wrong by putting  WTJWorg in this category of "institutional abuse" instead in "family abuse" category. And as i understand Anna agree with HF. Holy Folk is, it seems, first person who made such sort of ("ridiculous") comparison and triggered discussion and agreement/disagreement on her statement. :))

14 hours ago, xero said:

Where has this been eliminated? I have yet to read of an organization anywhere where this has been eliminated.

13 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

How many? No more than anywhere in the overall population, and probably much less.

9 hours ago, Thinking said:

I also read of a ex JW who stated he went to the Bible students ( Russell’s followers) and some other groups of which I cannot remember and he noted that all the problems he/she saw with In The org...was also present within those said groups..it’s everywhere...even Franz who wrote his famous book said he did not see that this was a issue any worse than any other faith...

 

From this it could justifiably be concluded that all organizations are similar and that none meet the “divine” criteria.

Differences in theology become irrelevant if members cannot curb their negative urges/impulses and if cultivate prejudices toward members of other religions and toward former members. Out of a desire to please God, Cain and Abel forgot that they should love one another first, and only then love God.

13 hours ago, Anna said:

“Both official reports and media often confuse ‘institutional’ abuse in religious settings and abuse happening in families that happen to be religious.” HF

"Next move will be to hold Walmart responsible for abuse that has occurred among their shoppers"- True Tom

Yes, I would say that is the crux of the matter. 

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Can you see how this is so stupid ?  Walmart shoppers are not employed by Walmart. Walmart have no responsibility for it's shoppers in that respect.  BUT the GB and all it's 'official' ranks are the responsibility of the Watchtower / Org. 

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Because what has happened, and has been proven in courts, is that the Watchtower / JW Org has hidden the CSA by Elders and Ministerial Servants. Yes those 'highly thought of brothers' that abuse their own children and others, have been kept hidden in congregations, because the children have been frightened into keeping quiet. 

HF aka Holly Folk from Cesnur (strange organization indeed) speaking about "family abuse" inside JW organization/congregations as something that is real problem in WTJWorg. She explained/stated how cases of CSA in WTJWorg are not "institutional". Let see. 

How many parents / guardians have committed CSA to their children? When this became known, then the "institution" through WTJWorg elders, took "institutional measures" in this regard.
How many JW members regardless of status (rank and file, MS, elders) have committed CSA over other people's children? When this became known, then the "institution" through WTJWorg elders, took "institutional measures" in this regard.

In both cases, the WTJWorg institution became involved in "family" relations or "private" relations between members and decided that such a case was within the jurisdiction of WTJWorg, a "religious-business institution". Moreover, WTJWorg has over time established a “procedure” or “policy” on how such matters should be dealt WITHOUT involving “secular institutions”.
So please, who wants to tell stories here and blur the eyes of others? HF and Cesnur for sure. Who else?

On the other hand, if WTJWorg has had a problem with “domestic violence and family abuse” to such an extent throughout all these decades, than we need to seriously ask - where has the “WTJWorg institution” failed?

53 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

challenges (like bringing along several small children).

I think the general climate (I’m talking about the period between 1970 and 2015) was for the JW family to participate together in all theocratic activities, with young children from an early age to “adapt” to the assembly. It also means participating in the field ministry.

I remember a situation of a married couple who loved pioneering service (general, 90 hours) who traveled many kilometres in a car with a small child (from when she was a baby onward). That little girl was about 4 or five years ( in the middle to the end of 1980) old when a provincial overseer (CO) said to that brother (an informal meeting was at a some brother's house in Rijeka), "And why are you dragging that little kid around with you?" This greatly upset that married couple and these two brothers were often in verbal confrontations on many issues.
So perspectives are different on many things. One thing is said and expected from the podium, another is done in real time and on the "field". :))

11 hours ago, xero said:

I think a lot of JW's are losing their minds right now.

It happens, it repeats itself periodically to every generation of JW.

11 hours ago, xero said:

Eat right, get regular exercise, find something to do which you enjoy and do what you can and learn to ignore the ones who imagine they know you and what you can do better. (I'm still working on all of this too)

Excellent advice!

2 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Should they need a replacement, they look into the ranks of anointed worldwide, and select one.

The difference being that they will be replaced by ones of God's choosing through Christ.  You still keep looking at men choosing men. Still so physical. Wake up, think in a spiritual way. God and Christ are not physical.... 

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

that their assignment was to rule in the new system, not now.

Um, let me think now. Who is ruling now ? Oh yes, the GB, who say they are Anointed. Those 8 men that say they are the ONLY Faithful and Discreet Slave. Those 8 men that say that 'God and Christ trusts them, so the whole JW congregation should trust them'.   Yes that's who's ruling now. 

Is there any clear and "theocratic" foundation about number of FDS or number of GB or number of Helpers? Just for the sake of discussion. :))

12 apostles need "replacement" for 1 they lost. I mean, they can worked with 11 just fine, didn't they? What is the minimum number of GB members to be Legitimate, according to the Company Charter, according to the Companies Act (secular law), to the Bible, to Jesus, etc.?

And yes, @4Jah2me remarked excellently on the details of who should choose the "leadership." Supposedly, Jesus chose GB in 1919. So "we" would expect how Jesus have to pick the person for task of "feeding", not GB members. They (GB) can make choice about elders in conversation with CO. :))

3 hours ago, xero said:

So when people are worried about hierarchies in the congregation, I just think of lobsters.

In congregation, there are male lobsters and female lobsters :)) and all have their roles within possible hierarchies and possible outcomes. 

4 hours ago, Witness said:

  Eight men hold power over all, that is why.  This is opinionated persuasion of men who have a devious underlying reason, for teaching JWs to avoid the anointed.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

So, the Wt wants the anointed to remain anonymous.

It turns out that the only important thing is to recognize those on JWTV who are set to teach the lessons.  

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Whatever the Spirit of truth placed in the heart is not used, since they cannot act upon who they are - as someone Jesus sent to reveal truth. (1 John 2:20; Mal 2:7)

The job of the Administration is to silence any objection to their work, and to eliminate possible "competitors".

3 hours ago, Anna said:

You can accept the anointed without inquiring about their anointing surely? Or do you need them to talk to you about their anointing before you accept them? As for talking to them about how they feel about the truth, why on earth should you not be able to do that?

Yes, people can do that, surely. Perhaps is better to "taste" their deeds and words before we unconditionally (or conditionally) accept them as "distributors of spiritual food". 

Now one more thing. And when you accept them, it is not for eternity. Because anyone can go the wrong way, so it would be good not to follow him when we realize something is wrong.

1 hour ago, xero said:

(I would have if there wasn't so much social pressure to NOT ask).

Social pressure made by GB ? :))

@Anna Page 24, Par.10 “How can we show appropriate respect for those whom Jehovah chooses to anoint? We would not ask them personal  questions about their anointing. We thus avoid meddling with what does not concern us." -  WT Jan 2016 ,

.... source find  in interesting topic;

58 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

16 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

can't celebrate holidays because pagans celebrated those holidays, can't celebrate birthdays because some pagans celebrated birthdays in the bible.

Faulty logic. We don't really care too much about what "pagans" do or do not do.

No, you get it wrong. :)) JW members don't celebrate birthdays because; 

a) supposedly, old Jews not celebrate birthdays 

b) of Bible text interpretations where two "pagans" celebrate birthdays (Pharaoh and Herod).

c) it is idolatry, according to JW teachings    

On 2/10/2021 at 6:43 PM, Witness said:

The organization boasts that it follows the laws of God through Jesus Christ, while slyly slipping in men’s laws and decisions. It declares that “God’s organization” has established these decrees through its governing leaders. (Mark 7:7,8; John 12:48,49) Truly, this is only to ensure the operating efficiency of an earthly organization; and for its captives to continue bearing the mark of the beast. (Matt 6:19; Rev 3:17,18; Prov 10:2) (Rom 6:16-18; Rev 13:16-18) 

 

For example; the preaching service divided into categories of preachers, hourly norms, giving a monthly report.

27 minutes ago, Anna said:

You have probably heard this sentiment before, it's great, and I like to remind myself of it periodically: "Plan ahead as if Armageddon won't come in your lifetime, but live your life as if it will come tomorrow"

This saying about Armageddon seems acceptable, but it is not. Some JW people chose poorly paid jobs because everything will fall apart anyway so retirement doesn’t matter because Armageddon will come soon. Some did not invest in the maintenance of the house, because it will soon end, why invest in what will be destroyed in Armageddon. The WTJWorg administration, on the other hand, made big plans and investments in real estate construction and then sold them for big money. Most were raised by voluntary contributions from members who gave to the Organization. 

Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.” Mahatma Gandhi.