Srecko Sostar

5 hours ago, Anna said:

And then the untruth is corrected and becomes truth.

I wouldn't agree with a setting like this, Anna. There are things, in both religion and science, that could be called dogmas. In earlier science, such as that of the Middle Ages, there were “scientific assumptions” completely contrary to today’s understanding and evidence. In one significant part, correct me if I am wrong, the former science was in the hands of religious systems that claimed to have knowledge of “divine” origin, and therefore that knowledge was “infallible”.

Today, we have a different science. It is beyond the reach of religion. Even contrary to religious teachings. It is based on a different approach, methods and insights. Therefore, we will not say that scientific discoveries are "false or true" as in religion, but that they are "correct or inaccurate", because new evidence can confirm or change previous conclusions.

It is different with religion. We always have the same basic premise, and that is, “All knowledge comes from God,” and he determines what is right and wrong, what is true and false.

In religious matters, teachings, and conclusions, people supposedly rely entirely on the Word of God, and therefore such conclusions and dogmas are "true," for God is a God of truth, not falsehood. A lie is a deliberate untruth. There is no room for error here because we accidentally made a mistake. Religious leaders do not introduce any teaching or instruction with words that warn the flock in advance of the possibility of future changes in doctrine or give room for possible errors in doctrines. No, no religion does that. Also, even GB in WTJWorg never distances itself in advance from the fact that everything they say may be wrong. The “truth” is always published in WTJWorg, according to their own claims in the literature.

Subsequent changes in the interpretation of previous interpretations are called “new light” which illuminates “old light”. No one in WTJWorg called “old light” a real name within religious i.e. biblical terminology: lie. If WTJWorg were a scientific organization, then they could talk about their teachings as “mistakes”. But WTJWorg is an expression of the Kingdom of God on Earth and declares itself to be the successor of the First Congregation of Jesus Christ. So, it is of a religious character. And in religion there are only two: truth or lie.

2 hours ago, Witness said:

But after listening to the third part of the annual meeting, I believe “Armageddon” is a long way off in their eyes, and the GB prefer that way.  There are too many earthly projects they need to address and accomplish. 

You have nicely shown that the biblical text (about Armageddon) can be understood in a completely different way than the one offered by WTJWorg.

I would comment this way. Example: Birthday and celebrating a birthday is not “satanic”. But wishing someone’s death as a birthday wish is certainly “satanic”.
The discovery of a new communication technique and resources (clay tablets, paper, pens, analog and digital notation and everything that will be invented in the future) cannot simply be described as "divine" or "satanic". All of these things are mostly or completely “neutral” at their core.

Producing a weapon with the intent to kill causes some questions. Whether these weapons were created to defend their own lives or to hunt for food or to conquer and enslave or destroy, we can say that the weapon is dangerous. But if one uses a weapon to save or defend one’s life, then it is difficult to attribute any or specific origin to such a weapon.

I would say that the intention and purpose is in the hands (mind, emotion) of the user, and the one in whose hands the "tool" is, can to some extent be classified in some category.

17 hours ago, xero said:

(But...they repent (now there was no conditional "Nineveh will overthrown in 40 days UNLESS you repent))

When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened. - Jonah 3 10

God relented, changed his mind and his intention. What if JW preaching service will be faced with same sort of decision about "Armageddon" in the future? 

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Wasn't the Apostle Paul and/or some of the other Apostles, Tent makers ?

So they too would have had two roles, one spiritual to serve God through Christ, one practical to earn the money they needed to live. 

Yes, but he was his own boss :))

12 hours ago, xero said:

Take Jonah. Did Jonah preach a lie?

He preached what he heard. GB heard nothing! .... or they heard voices, still? :))

After some time Jonah heard something else. So, both voices came from same place (same person aka God) and what Jonah told people, "both news", were true as such. 

"Jonah message or truth" were not the result of a "light that shines more and more" in which the second stronger light replaces the first which shines less brightly. These were two completely clear messages with two contents. There, nothing depended on the spiritual-intellectual effort of the people to try to understand the "riddle".

2 hours ago, xero said:

To believe something is to be able to provide a rational belief, an account of your belief. If you say "I believe in the trinity", that's not proof of your belief. That's a statement. You have to provide justification.

If you say "I believe in the trinity because the Pope says it's true, or because my preacher says it's true, or because I don't want to be called names." We all know those are not valid reasons, any more than if a person were to say "The governing body says it's true, therefore it's true and those are my reasons". These may be reasonable in the sense of these "reasons" being correlated with the proposed belief, but to believe something you have to internalize the thing in which you ostensibly believe.

What is the rational belief of a child who sees a cat for the first time, not knowing it is a cat, but his mother telling him it is a cat? The child trusts the mother and that is why this statement is correct. 

Adult people believe other people how something is true. And in many cases they don't question it, they don’t check it. In WTJWorg was created special climate in which members “learn” how far they are allowed to question and doubt something. The "Rubicon" exists and is passed from generation to generation.

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

and ended up providing jobs for about 20 pioneers.

This remind me of similar here. A lot of years have passed since then, so I can’t say for sure when that was topical. But I think it started sometime after 1990. The former Yugoslavia in particular, and later Croatia, is late for the USA, so this idea is very easily a copy of what happened in your country.

Some brothers founded a company to make orthopedic insoles. So there were JW doctors involved, JW craftsmen and .... now this most interesting, a large number of JW pioneers and those who wanted to be pioneers and work for money. So, that "bunch" of pioneers were actually traveling traders who offered orthopedic insoles to people who had sore feet. They took footprints and sent them to Rijeka (a city on the sea) and I think Zagreb also. So these brothers and sisters regular pioneers (90 hours) had two roles, traveling pioneers and traveling merchants. At one point, it was no longer known when they were doing what, because the two activities were intertwined. This lasted for some time, but there were more and more problems in the spiritual-financial-management relations. I don’t know does something similar exist today, but I recall how that great idea of having a lot of pioneers and private business together ended ingloriously.

2 hours ago, xero said:

Unfortunately it seems that it's human nature to not "speak truth to one another".

People would like (and should) be able to say ... what they think (good or bad, truth or false, whether others like it or not). There are shy people, insecure, there are those who may not trust others. Some may say only to selected close friends, but not in public in front of others, etc. If others knew something about us, they might consider us less valuable or they might misuse information about us sometime in the future.

They may be afraid of the reactions of the environment or the consequences of honesty. The family and the environment in which they live may feel that some topics should not be public because they are a “sensitive topic”.

I am of the opinion that it is not that we do not want to tell the truth, but that we are afraid of the truth, the truth about ourselves and others. :))

1 hour ago, xero said:

Agreement leading to discontent because no one is telling each other the truth about how they really think and feel about something, because they think the others are into it when they aren't, but they go along for the same reason. Everyone's miserable as a result.

If people would just say what they really thought, it would be different in a lot of cases.

Like this!

9 hours ago, AlanF said:

The Watchtower Society teaches many false things in God's name. Doing so makes the responsible ones in it false prophets. The Bible itself tells people to pay no attention to false prophets. 

Most JW members have not yet realized this.

4 hours ago, xero said:

SS - I get it. I don't blame anyone for blaming either...On the other hand... Suppose someone had a marriage that went south and the guy was ranting to you about his ex-wife at a bar. You'd probably think "OK, I guess this guy had it bad....Then say a year goes by and you run into him again..."Say how's it goin!" and he launches into a rant about his ex-wife again. Maybe you let it go...maybe he's still dealing with something....Then two years later...same guy, same bar and guess what? Still ranting about his ex-wife....

You begin to think he's making a career of hating on his ex-wife.

Why doesn't he get a new one? Move on, do something?

I get it and agree.

4 hours ago, xero said:

I'm sure most don't. If they felt that they were in a cult and got out, you'd think they wouldn't mention they'd been a JW. Trying to explain your drama to a non-JW that you "used to be in a cult" would be like saying "I used to be institutionalized, but trust me, I'm OK now."

I believe (am sure) most non-JW's are not interested in JW or ex-JW experiences. Because they have "their life" and are not interested in some religious minority that has problems of this or that nature. It seems to me that there are very few newspaper articles about JW and their structure, at least about the public side of JW. Internal problems can rarely, if ever, be heard about. CSA experiences have only recently drawn attention to religions and thus to WTJWorg, too. WTJWorg cultivates introversion, closed culture inside organization, and only what is "public" is preaching service. Individuals are taught, by organization, to be secretive about internal things. But that is not nothing new, most institution, religious or non-religious working on same principles. So, WTJWorg is as any other "worldly" organization in this matter. Or to put it much more simply, it is in human nature (let dirty laundry stay inside home, ...especially if I personally smeared or contributed to it happening.  ).

Ex-JW's changed that picture by openly speaking about own and other members experience. Speaking about your experiences and problems in a public way can be part of “healing” from that part of your personal life, dissatisfaction, trauma, or disappointment. How long can or should it last? I do not know. But it is obviously not simple or easy. On the other hand, it may be the only way for the public to know what WTJWorg would never honestly and openly admit about itself and how GB runs the organization and what is “sold” under the “God and Truth” label.

4 hours ago, xero said:

So I think that the loud ones have issues that probably started long before and I'll say this maybe they have relatives in and that's the issue - being shunned - that hurts and I do have some problems w/the way this is handled, which is why I don't stick my nose into other people's families - it's their family, their conscience, their responsibility and don't make it my business, is all I wish people would do.

It can be. But i don't see as a problem. In the environment of the assembly, such an individual was under pressure from the environment, and he realized that speaking openly about something brings condemnation from the members. In this new environment (you tube and the like) he can say and try to defend his views, more or less successful. In comparison with previous, he was not allowed to do any of that in the assembly.

In fact, many of the current JWs here on the Forum are proof of what we are saying. Because if it weren't so, everyone "real JW" would be in "real preaching service", not here where they "outwit/bicker with the opposition" :)))

Stay well.

1 hour ago, xero said:

I think a lot of people who have left and a lot who have stayed have a lot in common. They haven't made the truth their own.

Pilate asked Jesus, What is the truth? And Jesus didn't respond. If I ask You, What is "the truth" ... for You?, will you and what you would answer? 

Let me help you. If someone had ask you 30, 20, 10, 5, 2,5 years ago what is "the truth" taught by WTJWorg, would you have the same answers as today? 

If you stayed in that truth from 30 years ago, because you built it firmly into yourself, then you would not accept "some new truth" that the same organization would offer you later. So the question is; Did the organization "have made the truth their own ”? Obviously not! Well, what is in common for people who stayed and organization who changed?

1 hour ago, xero said:

Instead they either abdicate their free will to an organization or they blame an organization for their having left.

People who stayed are people described in first part of sentence. People who left have various, different reactions. As for me, for example, i don't see why i would blame organization for not celebrating my birthdays in the past 53 years. :)))

People (can) have regrets for decisions or for either because they were deceived, or because they allowed themselves to be deceived and so on. WTJWorg "institutional settings" are made in such a way that members can rightly have objections and can blame the organization for many injustices and failures. In this sense, I do not see why individuals should be blamed for resenting the “organization” and its "official representatives" or even other ordinary members who were unjust to their fellow believers because of their “blind obedience to the organization”.

15 hours ago, Isabella said:

It was 1986, my family were Jehovah’s Witnesses, and the JW governing body was confidently predicting that Armageddon would arrive by the mid-1990s.

He (Jesus) has told us that the “generation” of 1914—the year that the sign began to be fulfilled—“will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” (Matthew 24:34) Some of that “generation” could survive until the end of the century. But there are many indications that “the end” is much closer than that! - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1984165

1) This kid girl told the truth. 

2) Watchtower study magazine made false statement/prediction/prophecy/claim/doctrine.

JW members refusing to play anthem but accepting to believe false doctrines. .... And despite such reality, yours and others JW people reality, you @Arauna ask me "trivial" question about different issue and dare to put me in a box you created for people like me. Funny, unnecessary and missed :))  

If research within the JW could be conducted that goes back at least 50 years, I am convinced that a large percentage of similar results would be found. All of them would have in common a collective state of mind due to which their view of the "near future" or the future in general, was influenced by the JW religious view of "tomorrow", and that all this "today and earthly" would fail. And that is why you should not put special effort into anything "material". That no plans should be made for the "earthly," but only for the "spiritual." This “spiritual” is, of course, exclusively within the ideology of the WTJWorg.

There are capable and wealthy people among the JWs. There are those who came to the organization highly educated. There are those JW parents who have sent their children to college before and today. But a large number of members are "ordinary people", who accept "simple (unambiguous) doctrinal assumptions" regarding their position in the social life of the country of which they are citizens and regarding their own identity. For example, what is shown in one congress video / program - a child who has the gift to play the violin should be stopped to go "in the world" and achieve a career as a musician.

Admittedly, I know personally two JWs, a father and a son, violinists, who had problems at work due to their refusal to play the anthem. It is interesting, on the other hand, that I have never heard of them refusing to play another piece of music, and we all, more or less know, that in some compositions or musical performances there are things depicting murders, adulteries, lies and other morally unacceptable things for some JW member. By that logic, a JW musician would often have to refuse to play in an orchestra.
From all this and many other life situations, which you have also heard about, it is evident that an individual or a group of believers cannot be completely “pure within the unclean”. Not even within the "spiritual paradise" of congregation.

56 minutes ago, xero said:

So you can read that and say meat was off limits, or you can say it was simply not mentioned, but assumed.

It is a fertile ground for doctrinal interpretations and for spreading the partial interests of interest groups and individuals.

Does this mean that the Bible is written to “hide the truth” from some, and that some others “can see” it, and that third group (others) can abuse it (Bible) to “blur the vision” of those in the first two groups?

Do you see yourself in any of those groups or you belong to "fourth" group? :))

3 hours ago, xero said:

animal (there's a TED talk on this).

In Eden God made law for human to eat vegetables. And God said after every Creative Day; It is Good, Perfect. So, eating vegetables is/was Good and Perfect...in Eden and up until Flood.

After Flood God said to Noah; Eat Meat. It is not Perfect Solution and you will have problem with Ecology, Economy and all those stuffs in the Future, but don't worry, i will bring Armageddon on all people who ruined Earth with Global Meat Production and similar things. :))

12 hours ago, xero said:

Also most people don't differentiate between micro and macro evolution.

I have neutral questions:

If God created lions and tigers and bears (today predators) and other animals in Paradise Earth of Eden and outside of Eden to eat grass and fruits, Did He created them with teeth and claws and digestive system just for plant foods?

After the fall of Eden or after Great Flood, how did these animals become omnivores or carnivores?

Did their teeth and claws grow later, so they could catch food?

If not, why did God create them with such teeth and claws?

If their teeth and claws grew later, was it "micro or macro evolution"?

Similar with many other animals in food chain. Birds eats insects. One sort of insects eats other sort of insects. They all killing (murder) each other.  

And so on and so forth.

Yes for sure, there are people who are highly educated and believe in God as Creator. JW or other religious organizations have in their ranks highly educated people who believe in God. That is a fact.
If we stop after this conclusion, then we have no more problems......
.......Yet we have a problem: But in which Creator God do all these highly educated people and scientists believe? In God of Dr Tour? In God of JW's? What religion does Dr Tour belong to? To what extent will JW's accept the conclusions of Dr. Tour, a scientific believer of the Jewish direction, or of the Baptist direction, etc.? ?

DR Tour said for Adventistorg. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God.”

But WTJWorg said opposite, You have to study NWT Bible and WTJWorg publications to be closer to God.

Tour does not see a conflict between faith and science, having been quoted as saying, “I build molecules for a living. I can’t begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what He has done through His creation. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God.” - https://www.adventistreview.org/church-news/story15332-andrews-university-to-host-origins-lecture-by-distinguished-scientist

He also said: Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith.

This is interesting. GB (rookie in Dr Tour mind) say opposite, stay away from higher education because you will loose your faith in JHVH. :))

1 hour ago, Witness said:

When Jesus was on earth, he was punished for rejecting the corrupt leadership; yet for those who rejected him he said,

“Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you”.  Matt 5:44  (what did A. Morris say about his “enemies”)

“Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you”.  Matt 5:44  (what did A. Morris say about his “enemies”)

This is really serious and sobering. You connected that perfectly! Thanks! The "spirit" of A. Morris' is bad spirit.

Unfortunately, most Israelites failed to allow themselves to be led by the Law to Christ ( Matthew 23:15; John 1:11 ). That is why Jehovah God rejected that nation and caused the birth of 'Israel of God'. In addition, he invited non-Jews to become full citizens of this new Israel ( Galatians 3:28; 6:16 ). - https://wol.jw.org/hr/wol/d/r19/lp-c/1995484

 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. ² God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew... - Rom 11

On 1/27/2021 at 5:53 PM, César Chávez said:

You need to update yourself. The objection is on the time given and the violation South Korea has now entered into.

It may be the same kind of problem WTJWorg has regarding the redress scheme in Australia. The Jehovah's Witnesses have refused to sign up, arguing the religion did not have the "institutional settings" needed to be covered by the scheme.

Perhaps South Korea, also, do not have "institutional settings" to please, to meet the requirements (scheme) of JW members about this issue.  

2 hours ago, Witness said:

If ANY JW truly loves God and Christ, that person would discern, that Wt’s leadership has transgressed the fulfillment of the law in Christ – adding to, and expecting obedience to, THEIR word – the word of men not inspired by Holy Spirit.

.... and expecting obedience to, THEIR word – the word of men not inspired by Holy Spirit.

This is so well said.
What parallel do I see with the words of the apostles, to obey God rather than men? To whom did the apostles not want to submit? They did not want to obey Sanhedrin and the elders of the Jewish people. To the spiritual leaders of their own people and religion.

Did the members of Sanhedrin claim to be inspired by God? Did Sanhedrin claim not to be inspired by God? GB claims that they are not inspired, but that they must be obeyed.
Religious people, JW also, accept the claim that the Bible is inspired by God. And this fact (that the Word is inspired by God) provides in itself proof that people should accept God's guidelines and be obedient to that very Word.

On the other hand, we have the fact that GB is not inspired (according to their own claims). And that fact ("we are not inspired") provides the basis for what the apostles claimed, Not to obey (GB) people who are not inspired by God, because their “commandments” (doctrines) are not God’s, but human’s.
Was everything the Sanhedrin taught wrong and contrary to God’s Law and Word? I don't think we could say anything like that. But still, the Sanhedrin and many religious leaders, the elders, violated God’s law and God’s word in many things. Both in word and in spirit. That is why it was justified for the apostles to oppose it.

Today JWs have a Biblical precedent from the book of Acts, to oppose their religious leaders (GB and elders) for the same reasons and in the same way as it was in the 1st century.

Can Acts 5 be identified with Romans 13?
In Acts it is allowed to oppose spiritual authorities. The Epistle to the Romans calls for obedience to secular authorities with no alternative.
But whatever we personally decide, every choice carries good and bad consequences. Each of our choices will make us stronger or weaker, that we are winners or losers, happy or unhappy. “As long as we’re alive nothing is lost,” one man said.

"Alternative service" in East Europe for JW's who refused go to military service.

If my memories serving me well, I heard that in Czechoslovakia (info from native bro and sis in Bratislava in the mid of 1980) they tell me how you can choose between going to prison for few years (and perhaps again if you refuse service after prison time) or going working to mine under contract, and have normal working time as all other civil person who are mine worker, going to home after work and so. Perhaps long life contract.

So, this "problem" in South Korea is just "piece of cake" :)))

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

You are not making yourself clear - what separation?

Separation between religious and political things and decisions in Old Israel.

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

You yourself said give to god what god requires..... but it seems that Caesar is more important to you because if Caesar requests you to disobey the law of god then you seem as though this carries more weight with you. 

Any case, it is discrimination if you target one group of people because of their religion. The government also has responsibility to uphold their own laws.  When Paul asked to go to Caesar - the governor did not decide  what he thinks is more important. No, he acted with fairness and saved Paul from the Pharisees by sending him to Caesar.

It is therefore not wrong to question if authorities are fulfilling the law accurately or being too lax on some people or too strict on others.

Sorry, you are wrong about premise that I am discriminator. Simply, i was raised from my childhood as part of JW Church and spend cca half of my life (it depend how long i will live ;)) ) as member of WTJWorg, and as such i can't speak in this way about Catholics or Adventists etc.   

Paul and Caesar example you brought is interesting. And it is different of what we have today as "politic" of WTJWorg and State Courts. As i can see, Paul preaching caused trouble to him. He made some activity in Temple and spoke about "new light" and against established priesthood. Reaction of people and establishment was expected. What he done? He tell few things that average JW's today will not tell as evidence for defending nor in every day life.

First thing. Paul said: I am a Roman! (Roman citizen), and by that identified self in a way that JW today not see themselves as important or even separated from this world who put nationality and nationalism as important (i am German, American, British etc). Paul done exactly opposite of JW members are thought today, to not put national belongings in first place. JW have to be neutral in such matters. They are "global citizens" not belong to any particular nation, but belong to New World Nation.

Second thing Paul done is his calling on his Higher Educational Level and belonging to Higher Class of Israel Society. He said, I am Pharisee!  Imagine, he openly said he is part of blamed group. Will JW today say,  Your Honor, I am professor (not janitor, so my words are important) and I am (ex) member of Catholic Priesthood.

Third thing.  Secular Courts don't want today to be involved in church theology and questions of church doctrines. And WTJWorg Lawyers using this very much and very good (in USA call for 1st Amendment, i guess). Well, Paul done opposite. He wanted  secular Judge to make decisions about religious questions. ;))  

Fourth thing. Paul didn't want go to Jerusalem Elders for jurisdiction process, but to secular, pagan Roman courts. Amazing. JW's today are instructed that all religious and even some secular questions need to be presented before Elders and GB Administration. And how it is shameful if they bring brother before "unbelievers". 

Please tell me, where and when we live today, and how Paul is role model for JW members in this matters?