Srecko Sostar

Apologize in advance for my ignorant participation :))

Perhaps it should be taken into account that numbers in the Bible often times (if not always) have a symbolic meaning. Even when they are literally expressed in physical life (e.g. 12 tribes of Israel).
Number seven and number ten are full of symbolism, so the same could be said for number 70 (7x10=70). Seven representing perfection and ten representing completeness.

Well, slavery and the uninhabited land and the influence of Babylon on the enslaved people and lands were to reach their fullness (of course that is relative fullness*) according to God’s prophecy. The limitation and narrowness of God’s plans, we makes in our understanding, described in the biblical books (prophetic and others) means that a way of answering is sought in a way that may mean partially or completely wrong conclusions.

* relative in a sense that is visible in claim made in OT how "God's Law and Covenant are perfect and will last forever". But we see how that is relative in terms of "Jesus' teachings or law and new covenant". So, it seems how nothing is perfect and forever, not even if it is from God himself. Forms and shapes, they change their appearance. Perhaps something else is worth to be called "forever" and that such a journey is of our interest. The goal is not to get to the place but to travel. :))

17 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Our publications indicate that in relation to God's people Babylon became the World Power in 607 BCE with the overthrow of the Judean Monarchy.

This remind me on WTJorg interpretations about geographic relationship between God’s people Israel and Jerusalem as central place for worship, and their enemies and conquerors. The danger to Jerusalem, it seems, has always come from the "North."
God's WTJWorg central organization/place for worship is located in NY Headquarter. There is "JHVH spiritual throne" established in "parousia frame terminology" in 1919, so to speak . In the "North" position is Canada, Alaska and Greenland. I am "waiting" for "interpretations" about this significant momentum. Perhaps some "second fulfillment" is involved? :))

5 hours ago, AlanF said:

Thirdly, It will prove that some time before the end of A.D. 1914 the last member of the divinely recognized Church of Christ, the "royal priesthood," "the body of Christ," will be glorified with the Head; because every member is to reign with Christ, being a joint-heir with him of the Kingdom, and it cannot be fully "set up" without every member.

5 hours ago, AlanF said:

until the full number from among the Gentiles, who are to be members of the body or bride of Christ, would be fully selected.

According to this Bible Students understanding, Kingdom can't be established without full number of members. Sounds logic. But according to JW after Russell, Kingdom is established without Memorial Partakers Worldwide: 21,182 - https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/2020-service-year-report/2020-grand-totals/ Let us say how this 21,182 are not correct number because many of them are "mentally and emotionally unbalanced", but at least 8 (GB members) of them have to be "true". How ever you take, Kingdom can not be established without full number of kings and priests. From this logic or line of evidence, 1914 failed again. :))

5 hours ago, AlanF said:

it crushes and scatters the "powers that be" -- civil and ecclesiastical -- iron and clay.

"old light" :))) 

...... and now "new light"; America is iron, citizens (people) inside are clay because they want "civil rights". By this, WT Lawyers who fights for civil rights are "clay" that makes America weak. But Trump want to see America to be Great again. 

For a long time, Jehovah’s servants have wanted to understand what the feet of the image mean. Daniel 2:41 shows that the feet made of iron mixed with clay are one “kingdom,” not many. So we can understand that the clay means that something in the Anglo-American World Power makes it weaker than the Roman Empire, which was described as legs made of solid iron. Daniel’s prophecy says that the clay means “the offspring of mankind,” or the common people. (Daniel 2:43) People have weakened the Anglo-American World Power when they have fought to have civil rights, to have more rights at their workplace, and even to become independent nations. The common people make it difficult for this world power to be strong like iron. People have different political ideas. And when a leader wins an election by only a few votes, he does not have enough authority to do what he promised to do. Daniel said: “The kingdom will partly prove to be strong and will partly prove to be fragile.”—Daniel 2:42; 2 Timothy 3:1-3. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/402012443

5 hours ago, AlanF said:

If our vision be unobstructed by prejudice, when we get the telescope of God's Word rightly adjusted we may see with clearness

1912 edition was full of hopes ..... and vain thoughts about own future in period to 1914/1915. And also nothing similar has changed in WTJWorg since then. Same prejudice and obstructed "visions". 

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Satan can be an angel of light -because deceit comes in all kind of forms.  A polite man can be one who speaks his own thoughts - not that of Jehovah.  

Nice does not mean good!  Remember that!  I prefer someone who is honest and maybe unpleasant - because I may not be ready to hear the truth!  and I know what I am dealing with.  Model behavior  can be misleading!

I agree and disagree in the same time. :))

1 hour ago, Ann O'Maly said:

It's also important to note that Brown put the beginning of the time period to Nebuchadnezzar's first regnal year in 604 BCE.

Perhaps it was mentioned before in another topic, but i am fascinated how WTJWorg authors of their book "Let your Kingdom come" use common terminology to discredit others who have opposing views. They said: 

From a secular viewpoint, such lines of evidence might seem to establish the Neo-Babylonian chronology with Nebuchadnezzar’s 18th year (and the destruction of Jerusalem) in 587/6 B.C.E. However, no historian can deny the possibility that the present picture of Babylonian history might be misleading or in error. It is known, for example, that ancient priests and kings sometimes altered records for their own purposes. Or, even if the discovered evidence is accurate, it might be misinterpreted by modern scholars or be incomplete so that yet undiscovered material could drastically alter the chronology of the period.

If we want to do this, we can very easily use all these specific terms to describe the way many biblical scholars in WTJWorg work when interpreting Biblical history and the alleged "prophecies" that have "second fulfillment".

54 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Or, why not advance from several mistakes to less mistakes? We are not supposed to look for "True Anointed" because this would make us followers of men. Do you assume that Paul and Peter were "True Anointed"? If so, remember that persons in the Christian congregation were NOT supposed to follow them. Peter and Paul and others made serious mistakes. This is why the only "True Anointed" we follow is Jesus Christ.

Anointed or not, nobody is worth to be "followed" in this Organizational/Religious sense we speaking about, no matter where they or we are in this particular moment. GB and Elders, they seek to be obeyed. If you obey them than you in same moment "follow them". 

And they ask that from members although they give the wrong/err instructions and teachings. And (many or few times) they are aware that they are giving bad and wrong instructions. 

If we are not supposed to follow "Paul and Peter", why JW's looking on GB and Elders with exactly such undesirable mind and heart attitudes ?

12 hours ago, Anna said:

Whether that is a reasonable conclusion or not I don't know. What might make it more convincing is if the Bible anywhere else uses something bad, to illustrate something good.  Anyone?

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I don't think that you would have that much trouble finding various and sundry things in the Bible that could be rationalized as "bad" but ultimately represent something "good." More to the point, Cyrus and Nebuchadnezzar were both "tools" in Jehovah's hand as he allowed them to advance their beastly rule for their own motives, but their beastly motives served Jehovah's purpose at the time.

Let us dwell first on earthly activities. If someone wants to retaliate, execute a sentence, or simply evict someone from their homes, who will they use for the task? Will someone gather cattle breeders, farmers, tailors and musicians, give them a sword in their hands and say; Go and drive them all out or kill them if need be, all over there in that place because they are evil !?

It would be a poorly planned "punitive expedition." But if for this "bloody, rude, ruthless, and filthy work" you choose men who are skilled in arms, who are paid for slaughter, who obey every command without any remorse, then the task will be accomplished.

Let us now turn to Bible's visions of "punishments over the wicked." In the past as Bible described, God used his own worshipers and/or people of other nations and religions to carry out a massacre of “evil ones”. Sometimes angels were involved or miracles.

The prevailing view today is that God will no longer use his own people in enforcing his “court decisions,” but that someone else will do it for them, that is, the “warrior angels” . This “warrior angels” practice sword and war skills for millions of years, so to speak. They do everything JW members shouldn't. JW's are not even allowed to learn self-defense techniques, that's how far GB go in their instructions. But according to A. Morris they can rejoice at the death of an apostate aka ex-JW. This way they can at least somewhat indulge in "evil and primitive instincts" :))

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But this particular dream about a tree had created a special problem for Witnesses

I think, it was not this particular "dream" that caused problem, but ideas how that dream must be "prophecy for 1914".  

5 hours ago, Outta Here said:

So the purpose of Nebuchadnezzar's dream as a way of highlighting that no government, good or bad, can rule without Gods sanction

This can be very clear and sufficient explanation or lesson given to people. Let us put aside another problem on, why god allows bad governments to be long-lived.

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

There's a difference between hating a person and hating the actions and behavior that person demonstrates. If you haven't figured out Jesus words by now with loving thy enemy, it doesn't mean what you think it means. 

That just means to stay away from such a bad actor, so you don't become corrupted and receive bad influence. So, your Morris illustration is as false as you are in that regard.

difference between hating a person and hating the actions and behavior that person demonstrates

Aha, that is what JW video instruct JW member: Mother don't hate dfd daughter but she hates picking up a ringing phone :))

"Morris illustration" is an example of what should be avoided at all costs. What would it be: Jesus was a weak teacher to Morris? Or did Morris learn nothing from Jesus?

We two, are on safe "social distance". I will not be influenced by you, and you will not by me. So, we just "chat" about doctrines and interpretations...and show to known and unknown readers of our posts where we are in a "stream of thoughts and ideas". Is this ok with you?

4 minutes ago, Anna said:

You are reading too much into it.

It can be. The same can be said for WTJWorg "bible scholars" :)) who dealing with the possible interpretations (hidden messages aka second fulfillment) of biblical verses. 

There is no independent support for the tradition in Daniel of Nebuchadnezzar’s seven years’ madness, and the story probably arose from a fanciful later interpretation of texts concerned with events under Nabonidus, who showed apparent eccentricity in deserting Babylon for a decade to live in Arabia. -https://www.britannica.com/biography/Nebuchadnezzar-II

Perhaps, some of you will have time to deal with this quote.

34 minutes ago, Anna said:

Reasonably, it is understood that Neb did not represent Jehovah, but rulership.

How is possible that Babylonian empire, throne and king who are full of religious doctrines and secular ideas that are in opposition to JHVH can REPRESENT His RULERSHIP?  

41 minutes ago, Anna said:

it was only an  illustration of rulership that was represented through the kings that "sat on Jehovah's throne". Some of those kings became bad, so obviously they did not literally represent Jehovah, but it was known by all that they "sat on Jehovah's throne".

You mean like, GB sitting on JHVH throne, in sense to represent JHVH's will today? If they are or become bad JHVH will removed them by some secular power? In local or global way? In local way, Russia acted under JHVH will to remove some bad elements in Russian WT Branch? And what is next? On global scale Gog of Magog will also done JHVH will? Who can "put own hand in fire" to claim how GB in WTJWorg is not under same judgement as those old kings in Jerusalem ??

9 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Srecko, stupid are the ones who think he is not. Remember, most of his up-votes are from apostates like you. How about being coherent with your post for a change. Look at who he is citing with. Alanf, an ex-witness that doesn't understand history no better than JWinisder. O'Maly that doesn't understand how the ancients used astronomical signs, yet, they are hell-bent in supporting each other, just like you, John, and witness are hellbent in shaming God and Christ by your attitude and behavior in following the actions of men, rather than wanting to understand scripture the right way.

Therefore, read your own words on how scary it is not to understand your own words with your own behavior!

Okay, I can be stupid, because that's how you think of me. No big deal. But I wonder if giving down-vote for someone else’s comments is following Jesus ’example? You know what i mean, in style, love your enemies?  

GB member A. Morris, your human leader, claims that ex-JWs are apostates and that apostates are enemies. And he said how happy he is because all apostates will be dead soon. But he forgot to mention "his Leader Jesus" who says opposite; love your enemies.

:))

If you have time, send message to A. Morris with Bible verses:

Do not rejoice when your enemy falls,
And do not let your heart rejoice when he stumbles,
Otherwise, the Lord will see and be displeased,
And turn His anger away from him. 

6 hours ago, scholar JW said:

JW Insider

Are you an apostate?

:))) Stupid and scary at the same time.

If WTJWorg looks for parallel interpretation and making claim how "the dream" is illustration for God's Kingdom, than GB need to face the fact that they are actually claiming that God went mad at one point and was left without power over the Earth.

Cameron: That’s all right. The Bible shows that Nebuchadnezzar lost his sanity, evidently for seven years. During that time, he was unable to rule as king. But at the end of the seven times, Nebuchadnezzar regained his sanity and started ruling again. *

Jon: OK, I’m with you so far. But what does all of this have to do with God’s Kingdom and the year 1914?

Cameron: In a nutshell, this prophecy has two fulfillments. The first fulfillment happened when King Nebuchadnezzar’s rulership was interrupted. The second fulfillment involved an interruption of God’s rulership. So it is this second fulfillment that is related to God’s Kingdom.

Nebuchadnezzar = JHVH 

JHVH Kingdom stopped to be (World's) Ultimate Power in 607 BCE, because of .....,  caused by...., lets read how Cameron explained this: 

Cameron: In Bible times, the Israelite kings who ruled in Jerusalem were said to sit on “Jehovah’s throne.” * They represented God in governing his people. So the rulership of those kings  was really an expression of God’s rulership. In time, however, most of those kings became disobedient to God and most of their subjects followed suit. Because of the Israelites’ disobedience, God allowed them to be conquered by the Babylonians in 607 B.C.E. From that time on, no more kings represented Jehovah in Jerusalem. In that sense, then, God’s rulership was interrupted. Are you with me so far?

Kings in Jerusalem = JHVH, But they were conquered by Nebuchadnezzar = JHVH.

Disobedient Kings, Jerusalem = Disobedient JHVH conquered by Mad Nebuchadnezzar = Mad JHVH.

Are you still with Cameron so far? :))

Another thing is for massive consideration. If by any chance JHVH lost his power over Earth in 607 BCE than he also lost his power over Heaven too, because of same reason, and that is his "madness", what ever that could be.

If, by WTJWorg interpretations, JHVH regained his Power in 1914 CE, than question is; Who gave to Jesus Whole Power on Heaven and Earth in 33 CE ??? 

58 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Then you are as ignorant as your apostate friends here.

No, no Cesar. I would put, all this about us, people and our faiths and our hopes and our beliefs and our disappointments in few words:

We all are fragile.   

7 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

e) 180 elephants

180 / 360° =0,5 * 30 =  15°

:)) Right?

Don't ask me why 0,5*30 is necessary formula to get 15!! :))

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Imagine that! The Jewish calendar went so far as to name one of their months "Tammuz." That's like Christians using names like Thursday for Thor, Wednesday for Woden, Augustus [Ceasar] for August, etc. In fact, when we say that the Memorial of Jesus' Death is Nisan 14, instead of Abib 14, we are using the Babylonian influenced name for the first month, not the original Hebrew name for the same month, Abib.

As Jehovah’s servants, we are well-informed. We know why we believe and practice certain things and abstain from others. - https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/gods-love/celebrations-holidays-that-displease-god/

Even so called Bible Scholars in WTJWorg are not well-informed or purposely circumvent/bypass other evidence or downplay existing information and omit it or misrepresent them. 

Can a student be bigger than a teacher? The average JW does not have the capacity to adequately deal with a wealth of information (like the ones you provided from Insight). Also in some countries JW people have not Insight or other books on own language (Croatian for example).
Only above-average individuals within the JW population can enter the sources (and other books) from which the citation is quoted. To read and connect with understanding. Time and effort are necessary.

Take for example the idea that JW should avoid anything that has “pagan origins”. JW don't celebrate Jesus's  Birthday but have no problem to have weeding rings and celebrate Marriage-day. Weeding rings have some pagan origins and celebrating marriage anniversary gives "glory" to couple of human, not Creator. It is absurd not to celebrate the birth of the man who brought you salvation, but it is quite normal to celebrate the “birth” of marriage. :)))

The official website of the Jewish community in Croatia states that the Jerusalem Temple was destroyed 586 BCE. It is to be expected that Jews know their history better than JW.

Or are Jews also inclined to revise their past like WTJWorg? 

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

I do not have a doctorate - thanks to Jehovah. I do not tolerate the corrupting influence of self-importance.  I worked with about a hundred PHD persons when I was the PR for 13 museums. ... that was enough to open my eyes.  The same  petty and scholarly egotism was something which I also saw between silly opera singers when I worked in this field.

Yea, humans are the same everywhere...... they lift themselves up and pretend to all they are important because of what their job is.  Having a PHD allows them to understand ALL things in life perfectly -  better than lowly sheeple.  They are their job.  (Just like multi-billionaires think they have the right of their money  to decide the future of the world.) 

I must say I was not impressed with PHDs in Theology, especially those who wrote dissertations about "freedom fighters in the bible" or moses stealing ideas from sumerians.....and there are some other fields of science which I do not believe are scientific at all but closer to a blind religion with peers which act more like high priests of a cult. 

So miss o'Malley....... instead of asking if someone has a PHD, why do you rather not ask if they truly understand the ransom sacrifice of Jesus christ and where jehovah fits into this.  I think this may teuly give them a better chance of receiving everlasting life more than a misleading PHD. 

Jesus came for the lowly - not for those in the higher echelons of society. It was the higher society which rejected jesus and the truth.

Since this is supposed to be a bible forum I think that PHDs are not a criteria here. 

What JHVH have with your reasoning and decisions about PHD? Bible interpretations made by other humans and by reader himself bring people (believers) to this or that conclusion and decision.... about "higher education". Under influence of WTJWorg, JW members (most of them) making  decision to reject "higher education". That is their choice and their right for decision making. But please, do not put "burden of responsibility" on God, as he have something with WTJWorg interpretations on Bible text. 

WTJWorg has been proving to be an unreliable source for 140 years already. Because of that i completely agree with your statement how: Yea, humans are the same everywhere...... they lift themselves up and pretend to all they are important because of what their job is.

WTJWorg has been pretending that they are God's Sole Chanel aka FDS who spreading "truth". And in same time, after cornered because of so many nonsense in teachings, they came out with "we are imperfect". Everybody knows that they are "imperfect". What is so spectacular with that fact, and to put such "revelation" on JWTV or in own publications??!! 

Such a statement is not an admission of one's own mistake and stupidity. Such a statement is a hoax and distraction from the real situation in the WTJWorg Organization.

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

Does this bring them in line for life under Jehovah's government?  Definitely not.

"Anthony Morris effect" 

Dear Arauna, you are definitely under strong influence of JW Broadcasting (in the harmony with Anthony Morris' "spirit") and that will not bring you nothing positive and good.   

9 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Numbered witnesses here. Not all that say they are, aren't. You should know the difference by now.

GB member Anthony Morris and his followers are of those, for sure. His "hatred speech" on JWTV is well known.

Question is: Why haven't you seen the "difference by now"? :))

When people on this Forum go beyond decency and consideration because they are emotional in the passion of arguing, then throwing each other up with “strong” expressions has its fun side that can be tolerated to some degree. However, when a member of the Governing Body of an International Organization makes Public Announcements and Instructions, for JW and non-JW listeners, in which he incites intolerance and hatred towards those who expose the Theological and Business manipulations of WTJWorg, then it can hardly be attributed to a duel between several members of one Forum like this.

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

Stop trying to defend something you are clueless about.

About "back stage" interactions between JW members and Forum members ? Or about WTJWorg doctrinal  subjects? :))

7 hours ago, César Chávez said:

I hope people see the hypocrisy with people that are allowed to be that abusive, and how people like you respond in kind with a soft tone.

Yet, some call this site a JW forum, please! It's no better than any other witness trash site.

Why you think that you have problem with @JW Insider kind tone? In my opinion JW Insider giving proper model of behavior and polite, decent treatment of all.

You speaking about "trash". And how this site is "trash". Come on! WTJWorg 140 years of human doctrines and instructions are in direct competition to any "trash forum".... and is winner. 

 WTJWorg doesn't use "indecent" terms, but it does use lies. So now, you please tell me what you're having trouble with? With f words?

And what do you have no problem with? With lies?

:))

On 12/22/2020 at 5:57 PM, JW Insider said:

Christian Greek Scriptures are wonderfully beneficial for ALL.

...including non-JW people, too, i guess. :))

Is Bible, or some part of Bible, is OT, is NT, as Scriptures  or as Promise addressed for this or that people, it is a matter of (human) perspective and intention of Author and/or authors. I will not go in that issue, because not feel that i can defend any position. :))

inherit verb (FROM DEAD PERSON) - https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/inherit

1) to receive money, a house, etc. from someone after they have died

inherit verb (QUALITY)

2) to be born with the same physical or mental characteristics as one of your parents or grandparents: 

inherit verb (PROBLEM)

3) to begin to have responsibility for a problem or situation that previously existed or belonged to another person:

If I may, I would use this logic. According to the Biblical text from Genesis, and the interpretations of many religious people, God created man on Earth and for Earth. So, man and every next offspring, has a natural right to live on Earth, to use the Earth and to keep the Earth for himself and for others after him. The Earth, as a Planet, cannot be "inherited" in some legal sense, based on ownership of the Earth by our predecessors or by somebody else (Jesus, Angels, 144000 etc). The Earth is given as a gift to use, based on Genesis book.

Do those who "inherit" the Earth also "inherit" life, temporary life, life until they die, eternal life, immortal life? From whom they (people of all sort, JW earth class, JW heaven class, etc) "inherit" something from this we numbered? Or, is such a life a gift, a reward, or something else?

In order for someone to be able to “inherit” (in any sense of the word, literally and figuratively) land (Earth), he needs life. Without life man becomes earth (dust) and thus he alone becomes the object (dust) of inheritance for someone else. :))

Blessed are the meek,  for they will inherit the earth. Mat 5

In this Jesus' sermon, he don't said how "144000" and "great multitude" in Revelation will inherit the Earth.  No, he said how "meek" will inherit the earth. Also he didn't made claim how "144000" or "great multitude" are meek, as WTJWorg articles suggested. In fact, authors of those magazines created the image, premise that Jesus “heirs” would "inherit" the Earth because they are Jesus’ heirs. And Jesus' heirs are meek, not because they are meek in themselves, but because they are Jesus’ heirs. Circular Reasoning or something like that, i guess.

And, they are "heirs" because they have a hope to be with Jesus in Heaven :)) as they explained/justified their "1919 appointments" in old WT magazines. This was "proof" as well as "self made claim" that Jesus saw how "only they spoke the truth in period from 1914 to 1919." :)) That also proved to be incorrect, as we today clearly see all this and that.

Jesus told how God want to see all sort of (meek) people to be saved (and live on Earth, i guess)

5 hours ago, César Chávez said:

When has the Watchtower given you that permission or to incoherent ex-witnesses like Srecko, AlanF, John Butler, so forth and so on. How about none scholars like Ann O'Maly, to publish they're works?

WTJWorg GB+Helpers+Elders claims how they are "guided" by holy spirit. GB claims how they are "God's Channel" for spreading God's teachings and instructions, and how they are "God's Spokesperson" here on Earth. In this in mind, i think how all so called "spiritual food" published in any way, on paper or electronically, is not WTJWorg property at all. It is from God Himself. :)) according to their claims. ;)))

If you want to believe in such questionable claims, of course!! :)))

But JW members do believe!!

GB need to prove how every word written and every word spoken is PROPERTY of GOD, as if He is The SOURCE, for such "spiritual food".  Because, only in that way, we can discuss about "The Truth". That is (to prove) terribly hard task. It is much easier to them to prove this silly claims before JW members. 

But GB will never try to prove such claim before a "secular court". Because it is IMPOSSIBLE!!! So, only what they can defend, before courts, is their "right" for "intellectual property" of men maid doctrines!!!.

Also, God never said we have to ask for permission anybody, not God not GB or WTJWorg Company. 

Of course WTJWorg lawyers have different opinion on this issue  :)))))))))))))))))))))))) 

19 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

some things are blocked from UK viewing. 

Same for Croatia (or Europe, in fact).

19 hours ago, Witness said:

one of the prominent governing body members.  Not really sure what that means.

They all are "prominent" but one is more "prominent", and not just "prominent" :)))