Srecko Sostar

23 hours ago, Witness said:

For truth has stumbled in the public square

This is amazing description. "The Truth", the WT's "truth" has stumbled.

Can we expect...., can the truth be expected to stumble?

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill

If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything. - Mark Twain

We are either in the process of resisting God's truth or in the process of being shaped and molded by his truth. - Charles Stanley

Learn what is true in order to do what is right. - Thomas Huxley
 

Let me show you this video which I think has a few very important things for life, not only for JW members but also others who have dedicated their lives to some ideals and ideas.

Many readers of the WT magazine are aware that the interpretation of Romans chapter 13 verse 1, (also with 2-4 context),  changed in JW theology.
It was once thought that the "superior authorities" were: YHVH, Christ and earthly representatives in the form of elders, that is, governing body. These are called "theocratic superior authority".

"The above quotations from Paul’s letter to the Romans could never have applied to the political powers of Caesar’s world as wrongly claimed by the clergy of Christendom. The Caesars of this world have never demonstrated by their deeds that they are ‘God’s ministers to you for good’. Rather, exactly to the contrary, the Caesars have done evil by persecuting God’s faithful servants." - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1952443

I found 3 changes about this doctrine.

Under Russell and up to 1929 WT understand that this is about secular authority.  “Evil as these Gentile governments have been, they were permitted or “ordained of God” for a wise purpose. (Rom. 13:1)” Studies In the Scriptures Series I - The Divine Plan of the Ages p.250

Under Rutherford explanation has changed. From 1929 to 1962 they believed this: “The instruction of the thirteenth chapter of Romans has long been misapplied. The improper application has really been the basis for the false doctrine of the “divine right of kings” or rulers to rule and oppress the people. The apostle is, in substance, telling the members of the church that they should always be obedient to God, and that the motive for such obedience must be love for God and a delight in doing’ his will.” Watchtower 1929 Jun 1 p.163.

In 1962, under Knorr, the Society returned to the original position of Russell. A statement in Babylon the Great Has Fallen! God’s Kingdom Rules! page 548 indicated there was a change in understanding. And, “For some years, until 1962, Jehovah’s Witnesses held that the superior authorities were Jehovah God and Christ Jesus. However, in line with Proverbs 4:18, light increased, and this view was adjusted.” Watchtower 1990 Nov 1 p.11.  It seems how WT organization was left the spiritual “light” received through Russell and "sank" into doctrinal "darkness" for some 33 years. And than they didn't find "new light", but old Russell's doctrine which they reintroduced into the belief system as a “new light”.

What this introduction have with Management Records Doctrine/Instruction for elders? Whatever the interpretation of these biblical passages from Romans chapter 13, the fact is one: GB and the elders are disobedient to the "superior authority." In fact, they create an internal administrative system to avoid responsibility for their decisions and for their actions. No matter what the topic is.

In 1:57 of video JW elder Shawn Bartlett mentioned one "company" and circumstances about it in the past. This shows how WT is not honest Corporation. Please pay attention on this example and other reasons about "devil" and "legal matters" he made in video to show elders on this seminar why they need to destroy data.

Shawn Bartlett, the records management overseer for the Jehovah's Witnesses, explains the organization's new record-keeping policies during a 2017 seminar..webp

1 hour ago, Witness said:

refrigerator

This reminded me on tropical disaster in Philippine in 2014. i think. And JWorg video showed one JW family who, instead of food, were put WT publications in it.    

David Splane's "spiritual food" have elements of contradiction and is questionable as advice (for simple members).

In the meantime, world's sellout of WT properties, real estates is enough to ensure a good life for the top administration for quite some time to come, even with less donations. 

Unfortunately, GB has enough money not to worry about it at the moment. They are now concerned about the possibility of losing influence, managing (corporate governance the flock) the herd.

When they have to hide in basements (because they expect a future attack by Gog from Magog) it (Zoom and similar digital connections) could be a communication link.

For now (despite the Covid), people still want to see and socialize in physical form.

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But what impression? Why do you think she wasn't interested? Maybe she wrote the speech and already knew the contents? Maybe she is purposely distracting to lessen the impact? Maybe she is CIA, Falun Gong, CCP, hungry?

I seem to have failed to write the word — perhaps, and than this or that. Perhaps she was late due to traffic jam.

3 hours ago, Anna said:

And then there there this statement to the UN by Hamid Sabi. @JW Insider how credible do you see this as?

 

In 1:18 , that scene make first impression on me when i saw it --- Lady spent some time in shopping and returned with full bag of food (grocery and similar) because she didn't find interest to listen some speakers and some themes.

Anna, sorry for interruption, but that was stronger than me.  

2 hours ago, Witness said:

To create the discrepancy between both “preaching” efforts, requires Satan to magnify not only the lie, but the manner in which it is spread. (Matt 7:15,22; 24:24) 

2 hours ago, Witness said:

Whereas truth is pure, not needing regulations, rules and ‘tampering’, to make it palatable by men, to spread it. (James 1:17; Col 2:8, 20-23) The only effort needed, is the love of truth. It does not need massive visual aids to convince the hearer, that it is truth.  It doesn’t need the corporate legal watchdog to preserve it. 

Excellently said!

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If they were as hung up on money as you insist, they would NOT want members to simplify and work less hours.

What you said have logic. But also, if existing members will work more hour in "field service", logically, God will give blessing and more new members will come. And new members will give donations too. With bigger number of members organization will be blessed with more donations. If 8 million members give $1 every week that is $8 million. IF 20 mil members is involved in donation that is $20 mill every week. :)) 

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

So you think I cannot think for myself - think again.  

No, i said something else. That is, we have to be more careful about what we hear and read and to use more/extra caution about people who openly call their members that they should/need to TRUST THEM (aka GB), and, in fact, only them.

Please, you are intellectually enough strong and i am surprised, in a sad way, that you "interpreted" my words in a way you did.  

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

We are still living in the real world

In a "real word" people should be careful and have critical thinking about "food" placed/offered by their leaders. Leaders in WTJWorg are not completely honest in their intentions and plans. Their theological doctrines and other maneuvers in the “real world,” past and present, are proof that they cannot be trusted.

3 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Croatia is catholic.

Perhaps some of this will be interesting to read.

Croatia is secular state. All religions in Croatia (including JW) are separated and have autonomy.  The Republic of Croatia can be classified as a country in which between the church and state, practices the model of separation and cooperation, ie cooperation between religious communities and State.

The Croatian Constitution stipulates that all religious communities are separate from the state and equal before the law.

The legal status of the Catholic Church in Croatia is based on agreements between the Holy See and
Of the Republic of Croatia which, as international agreements, are legally above the laws of the Republic of Croatia. The model that was originally set for the Catholic Church was later applied to all other religious communities. 

Religious communities in the Republic of Croatia can be divided into five types:

1. The Catholic Church, whose position is regulated by international treaties and which has a special,
sui generis status within the Croatian legal system and to which, to the greatest extent, no applies ZPVZ (Law on the Legal Status of Religious Communities)
2. religious communities that have signed special agreements with the state
3. registered religious communities
4. unregistered religious communities that have the legal form of religious associations, the so-called
emerging religious communities
5. unregistered religious communities that do not even have the legal form of religious associations 

Financing of religious communities in the Republic of Croatia as a model of financing directly from the state
budget is finally regulated by the Agreements between the Holy See and the Republic of Croatia, the Act
on the legal status of religious communities and special agreements concluded by religious communities with
Republic of Croatia.

- google translation, part of Croatian Law on the Legal Status of Religious Communities

I do not know the status of the JW church in Croatia on this issue.

Article 17

(1) A religious community acquires funds:

- income from its property,

- from the profits of companies which hold shares or stakes,

- performing charitable, educational, cultural, artistic or other general useful activities, and selling religious publications or souvenirs,

- from the provision of religious services,

- from inheritance and gifts,

- from voluntary contributions (in money, services or works) of natural and legal persons.

(2) Religious communities shall be granted funds from the state budget, the annual amount of which shall be determined depending on the type and significance of its religious buildings (cultural, historical, artistic, etc.), and on the activities of the religious community in educational, social and health care. and the cultural field and its contribution to national culture, as well as the humanitarian and community service of the religious community.

(3) Dedicated support may be granted to a religious community from the state budget and the budget of local self-government units and the budget of regional self-government units, especially for the construction and renovation of religious community facilities.

7 hours ago, César Chávez said:

It was okay for Catholics and Protestants to use general population taxes for their churches, but now, Watchtower Nordic haters have a problem with the Watchtower applying for grants. 2 Corinthians 11:8-9

I would like to understand something. Does JW members pay "church tax" in Sweden, Norway or in any other country? How many JWs declare themselves to be a member of a JW church during a census in a country, so that "church taxes" could be levied on that basis? How many countries in the world collect "church taxes"? Is tax money from a believer who is a Catholic given only to the Catholic Church or part of the money is given to other churches? Would JW members agree to have part of their “church tax” be used to support some other “Christian or non-Christian” church? Is it the logic of paying a “church tax”, that members of a particular church support only their own church through the money thus collected, or the state funds all religions? If JW members will pay "church tax" for their own church, will GB be reduced or stop asking for voluntary contributions from their brothers an sisters?

About 2 Corinthians 11:8-9. "I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you".

I think that you misunderstand wording "robbed other churches". Other churches, Paul was talking, are not "worldly churches" of opposite denominations to his church. He speak about "first church" in various places. So, he "robbed" own, fellow, poor or rich, brothers and sisters.  

I suppose that "unrighteous wealth" should be achieved by working with one's own hands, "by the sweat of your brow", and not by suing  in the courts. :))

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The only verb that has probably been added is “demand.”

Jehovas vittnen kräver 25 miljoner av staten

Synonymer till kräva - https://www.synonymer.se/sv-syn/kräva

subst.

(zool.) säcklik del av matstrupe (hos fåglar), matstrupssäck

verb

1. fordra, begära, yrka på, påyrka, äska, framföra krav på; tarva, behöva, erfordra, framtvinga, göra nödvändig

2. infordra, utkräva, avkräva, avfordra

3. kosta, skörda

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

No part of the world but demanding the world's money.

Money is strong magnet and people rarely can resist at his call. 

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

The CCJW shouldn't want money from the country.  Jesus and the Apostles didn't ask for money from the Jews or the Romans.

Neither religion is no longer what it used to be. :))

google translation from article in Sweden, - https://www.expressen.se/dinapengar/jehovas-vittnen-kraver-25-miljoner-av-staten/

25 000 000 SEK = cca 2.400.000,00 EUR (2.800.000,00 US Dollar)

Jehovah's Witnesses demand 25 million from the state

Published 9 Jul 2020 at 17.00

Jehovah's Witnesses have been denied state funding for several years. 

Last year, the government overturned the decision - and now the organization is demanding SEK 25 million in compensation. 

After being denied state subsidies twelve years in a row, the government last year approved the organization as eligible to receive grants for denominations. 

The reason was a ruling by the Supreme Administrative Court which ruled that the practices of Jehovah's Witnesses - such as denying blood transfusions - do not in themselves constitute sufficient grounds for denying state subsidies. 

Requires SEK 25 million

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that their rights under the European Convention have been violated. 

Jehovah's Witnesses are now applying for damages of nearly 25 million in compensation for the years without support, as evidenced by documents produced by News Agency Siren. 

The claim, which has been sent to the Chancellor of Justice, applies to both financial and non-pecuniary damage. Jehovah's Witnesses also include legal costs to claim their case.

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

My accusations against the GB are that they made up rules which caused Paedophiles to be kept hidden within the CCJW or Watchtower (as you like to call it).  That the GB and their Lawyers are still withholding the Database, in America, containing over 20 years worth of accusations of Child Sexual Abuse, therefore the people kept hidden in that Database cannot be brought to justice and the Victims cannot find peace. 

My accusation against the GB is they do not want to pay compensation to Victims of CSA even when it has been proven that the Elders were following the rules made up by the GB. And that it was the rules made up by the GB that allowed the Paedophiles to continue to molest children.

Good points. WTJWorg made excuses that they have no "institutional settings" for redress scheme in Australia. Also they have no "institutional settings" to announce public apologize for wrongs they done in handling CSA or any other cases. Shameful explanation.

If JW organization is not able to make "institutional settings" that missing now, it is fascinating to hear that this modern, advanced organization with so many Departments and Helpers is not ready and in capacity, competence to produce settings for victims, own members and former members. Such massive and global administration, supposedly backed by God and founded on spiritual values are not ready to face this need. Funny.  

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

If someone cheated me out of my money? Would I go through great lengths to retrieve it? If it was a brother, would I allow myself to be wronged? 

Please, if you like to share with us here, what are your answers on your own questions?

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

1 Timothy 5

Please, what standards JW elders or you will put on issue of helping widows? How would you/them determine "real widows", would you put some income census, number of minor or adult children, area of living, governmental programs etc. Would you at all involved "secular legislation" into this congregational matter? Because you try so hard to separate "secular and spiritual organizations", church and state. 

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

you cannot make secular decisions based on scripture

???? really? :)))

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

no more than secular authority can't make a decision of someone's spirituality based on secular law. 

???? really? 

Spirituality means different things to different people. For some, it's primarily about a belief in God and active participation in organized religion. For others, it's about non-religious experiences that help them get in touch with their spiritual selves through quiet reflection, time in nature, private prayer, yoga, or meditation.

Many people identify as spiritual but not religious: With a few exceptions, the percentage of adults who identify as religious in many industrialized countries is declining, while remaining generally high in less developed nations. Even as religious affiliation decreases, though, a sense of spiritual identification could remain steady or even increase. -https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/basics/spirituality

When secular laws speaking about moral standards and ethic than it is about spiritual life of particular society. With this context, secular authority is able to make conclusions and decisions about someone's spirituality.

9 hours ago, César Chávez said:

1 Corinthians 6:1

Lawsuits Among Believers

6 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6 But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers!

7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

What "spiritual leaders" need to be, to have to be classified as competent to judge trivial cases? What are "trivial cases" is about? Murder? Child molestation? No matter are cases "trivial" or not, "spiritual leaders", as Paul gave idea, have to be "competent to judge". To be competent, one need to be educated and experienced in using this education and knowledge of specific subjects that including people and things.

Even over, Paul gave strong suggestion how to deal with "internal lawsuits" without so called "legislative" of any sort, "biblical" or "secular". Give up of your rights and give up of compensation for damage from your "brother". Whether WTJWorg and their spiritual leaders give up of "their rights" from "secular authorities"? Whether any JW member should give up and cancel any damage made by "worldly people"? Paul gave "principle idea". To give up and to be "wronged" and "cheated". If JW member are ready to behave in such manner inside own society of fellow witnesses, how more JW member should show same "faith" in front of "unbelievers"? Matt 5 said: 

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

9 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Mark 12:17

And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Jesus and God were/are "heavenly authority" who put Romans on position of power. And they put them on that position according to "heavenly legislative", if we can said this way. We can assume how God expecting from people to learn and understand "divine law". Why any would think how God, who put them on position of "secular authority" to correct and punish all people, not just "worldly" people but also "christian people" aka JW members, would not be interested that people learn about "secular law" too? Because "secular law" is from God, according to Romans 13. If "secular authority" have legalism and legality established by God himself, than their "laws" have it too. :))

With Jesus you put focus, it is obvious how he, as "spiritual leader", knew what "secular law" said about taxes or any other legal issue. It is clear from what he said that people need to know what "belong" to Caesar for purpose of knowledge and for purpose to be able to give obligated things to "secular authority". 

And for the sake of "balance", God gave people possibility to act according to "personal conscience". And to obey or disobey all sort of regulations, inside "biblical legislation" or inside "secular legislation". This is sort of first "human right" from time of Adam and Eve.

Of course, we need to be in reality and said this too. All this 3 sort of instruments; divine, secular and inside law are susceptible to spoilage.

And because of that, speaking from position of "faith", God in his grace was, is and will help all sort of people according to his judgement.   

So many things are "relative" and our/mine theological discussion too. :))    

1 hour ago, Witness said:

I wish everyone could witness the majesty of a redwood tree, and of a grove of the giants.  

What is pretty incredible, is that your small country, Croatia, has an abundance of National Parks from what I understand.  Pictures I have seen of their beauty,  are awesome.  🙂

Yeah, small country with diversity of climates, terrain configurations, mountains, lowland, sea, and more :).

We are, most often, short with time, life time, money, willingness to do changes, preoccupied with worries and with a uniformed everyday life.  

6 hours ago, César Chávez said:

No spiritual leader should be a lawyer when it comes to spiritual things.

For sake of discussion. Old Jew Law written by Moses consisted of many legal acts, paragraphs. People who were supposed to deal with the problems of the nation and individuals needed to have a very good knowledge of the law and how the law should be applied in a particular case. So, it is normal to accept the reality of the fact that such "spiritual leaders" were in a way "lawyers", because a deep knowledge and understanding of the law, and its application, meant one thing: the implementation, the administration of justice.

What kind of "spiritual leaders" would be those who do not know the law and all the applications of the paragraph in that law. So, “spiritual leaders” had to study, think, and discuss the law with themselves and with other “spiritual leaders”. Therefore, we can conclude that these people were forerunner, part of a system, called today by a special vocabulary - “lawyers”.

"Biblical legislation," both that of the past and that which is related to Christianity, is based on "spirituality." This would mean that “spiritual leaders” do not have one role, for example to deal with questions of celebrated birthdays, holidays, whether 144,000 is a literal or symbolic number, whether a Christian is allowed to have a tattoo, whether Michael is Jesus Christ or not, and so on. “Spiritual leaders” prescribe and enforce decisions about the behavior of their members.

The behavior of the members is sometimes inconsistent with the "biblical legislation", and sometimes it is also inconsistent with the "secular" legislation. “Spiritual leaders” should be well acquainted with both types of legislation. For “secular” legislation is related to God’s decision, and explained in Romans 13. For the same reason both classes of people, “spiritual leaders” and “church members” must submit to “secular” legislation. And “spiritual leaders” since they are “leaders” to their “members,” then they must guide them not only through “biblical legislation” but also “secular” legislation. That means being a “leader”.