Srecko Sostar

Yeah, small country with diversity of climates, terrain configurations, mountains, lowland, sea, and more :). We are, most often, short with time, life time, money, willingness to do changes, preoccupied with worries and with a uniformed everyday life.

For sake of discussion. Old Jew Law written by Moses consisted of many legal acts, paragraphs. People who were supposed to deal with the problems of the nation and individuals needed to have a very good knowledge of the law and how the law should be applied in a particular case. So, it is normal to accept the reality of the fact that such "spiritual leaders" were in a way "lawyers", because a deep knowledge and understanding of the law, and its application, meant one thing: the implementation, the administration of justice. What kind of "spiritual leaders" would be those who do not know the law and all the applications of the paragraph in that law. So, “spiritual leaders” had to study, think, and discuss the law with themselves and with other “spiritual leaders”. Therefore, we can conclude that these people were forerunner, part of a system, called today by a special vocabulary - “lawyers”. "Biblical legislation," both that of the past and that which is related to Christianity, is based on "spirituality." This would mean that “spiritual leaders” do not have one role, for example to deal with questions of celebrated birthdays, holidays, whether 144,000 is a literal or symbolic number, whether a Christian is allowed to have a tattoo, whether Michael is Jesus Christ or not, and so on. “Spiritual leaders” prescribe and enforce decisions about the behavior of their members. The behavior of the members is sometimes inconsistent with the "biblical legislation", and sometimes it is also inconsistent with the "secular" legislation. “Spiritual leaders” should be well acquainted with both types of legislation. For “secular” legislation is related to God’s decision, and explained in Romans 13. For the same reason both classes of people, “spiritual leaders” and “church members” must submit to “secular” legislation. And “spiritual leaders” since they are “leaders” to their “members,” then they must guide them not only through “biblical legislation” but also “secular” legislation. That means being a “leader”.

This is amazing. Wonderful place and time you had.

This have interesting connotations. But according to the role assigned to them by the JW organization, they should be: shepherds who take care of all the needs of their flock, investigators, prosecutors, defenders and judges in cases of "wrongdoings" made by flock. It would be to much to expect from them to be lawyers too. :))

Dear Thinking, in this few days you participated with 10 posts/comments about same event. And now you concluded how you are in some sort of regret for opening "that link" and involved yourself in "this fiasco". Why do you think how speaking about such issue is your or our "fiasco"? Do you feel need for repentance because you involved yourself into this? Do you need to confess your "sin" about this to your elders in congregation? And to tell them how you are in virtual "inappropriate association with weak brothers and former members" ? The exchange of experiences and opinions that take place here can be helpful in acquiring the skill of discerning truth, falsehood, and that between this two.

Until we see a conviction, we cannot assume that there were any. I believe Ann O'Maly's viewpoint is of general value, and it does not target particular, this one, case.

Having in mind so many "doctrinal errors" produced in the WTJWorg "kitchen", this statement is not so shine to be proud about it and about parallel/similar spiritual voyage you and them have in Bible understanding.

:))) is this "sexism" ?

The text from the magazine is written in a way that shows some ideas. Who should do what and why? It seeks to show the separation of "church from state", "spiritual from secular". And in this way, vague and unclear, the possibility is left for the organization, through other instructions, both public and only for the eyes of elders, to make rules and solutions in accordance with the circumstances and current framework of an event and time and internal policy. And in some situations to invoke the “rights” enjoyed by members of the clergy, the “sworn enemy” of God and Truth and God’s earthly organization i.e. WTJWorg. From the parts of the text of the WT magazine you put, a difference is expressed in which it is clear that WTJWorg has what it claims it does not have. The existence of a class of clergy and laity. The text states that: "When elders learn about serious wrongdoing, they approach the individual .... On contrary: But what if you are not an elder and you come to know about some serious wrongdoing ...The Law stated that if a person was a witness to apostate acts, sedition, murder, or certain other serious crimes, it was his responsibility to report it and to testify to what he knew. Anna, I found answer on your dilemma. Text itself speaking about this context: Elders, not an elder, another Christian and then made comparison with guidance from Old Israel Law. Message is clear to whom JW member need to give report. It is also clear from other JW church teachings, and members in this way or another "know" answer, that they need to report matter to elders. Text said "Law" referring to Bible law. Next words are "serious wrongdoing" and especially "apostate act" and "sedition". From this is very clear that State have nothing with doctrinal things and opposition inside religious organization. But writer of text mixing this part of "serious wrongdoing" with other serious things: murder, or certain other serious crimes,. This other things JW member is obligate to report also. To whom? To elders. Well, this WT text show complete "separation" from secular state and show how elders have to deal not only with "sins" but also with "crimes" too. Text named that with wording "serious wrongdoings" and in numbering few of serious wrongdoings they put "murder" in it and "other serious crimes". This showing tendency that WTJWorg want to have complete power over JW people (and all other people in the future) to judge them not only for "spiritual transgressions", but for all sort of acts that are known from human history.

I am not sure..., who said that?

Yes, i understand. If elders make decision about, that sin is forgivable, than congregation follow direction.

Yes, thanks, i recall such examples from magazines, about people who done crime while was "worldly" people. But i was interested more about experiences about actual JW members who committed crime and how elders/congregation had deal with it.

Just for the sake of discussion. If there is no confession of the defendant and if there are no two witnesses for a crime (not a sin) before the Court and if the Court convicts a JW member with prison time sentence, the question is: Can and on what basis a convicted JW member remain a member of the organization? May and on what basis be a Judicial Committee formed to discuss a convicted brother? Will he be expelled during his imprisonment or will JC summon him for questioning after serving his sentence? And similar. Perhaps you know some real life situations?

Yeah, how blessed people must be with their leaders, capitalist or communist :)) The Trump administration proposed rule changes that would allow shower heads to boost water pressure, after Trump repeatedly complained that bathroom fixtures do not work to his liking. The Department of Energy plan followed comments from Trump last month at a White House event on rolling back regulations. He said he believed water does not come out fast enough from fixtures. “So what do you do? You just stand there longer or you take a shower longer? Because my hair – I don’t know about you, but it has to be perfect. Perfect,” he said. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/12/us-shower-pressure-trump-hair-water

CC for sure made interesting points on subject. But, because many of you are part of JW congregation, you are under pressure. From one side WTJWorg doctrine is about how members have to be complete "neutral" toward "worldly things" and to not even express personal opinions about secular subjects. Because that is not of your "concern", that is what belong to "worldly people". JW members don't want to be involved, nor intellectually neither physically in matters of this world. According to "official viewpoint" of WTJWorg, members are not allowed to participate in any "social improvement" or in any activity that is seen as "worldly activity" from perspective of JW doctrine and policy. On other side GB leadership allowed participation of their own representatives in "worldly institution" aka OSCE and have some sort of political involvement and participation and contribution to this "old system of things" in "improving" political and civil freedoms. If we speaking about "human rights" or "civil rights" they are in fact "political rights", because secular governments create "politic /policy" which make it possible to have this and that "freedom" or "rights". If JW members found his free will to agree or disagree with some movement of "secular authorities" (as CC recommended) than they are also entitled to agree and disagree with GB politics too. Because this both "authorities", one is "secular" and other is "spiritual" are in subject to same "supreme authority" of god, according to Bible interpretations. By obeying god instead/over "GB" or "secular government" JW people with own "free judgement" would/will be in better position to prove "neutrality" in next/greater sense of the meaning of that word - to be "independent" from influence of other people.

It is interesting how we sometimes put ourselves in contradictory positions. WTJWorg is expert on this field, and successfully teaching members how to act in that manner. The best example is "human rights". WTJWorg and CCJW are so fast to go to Courts and going against "governments" when some law of some land limits actions of WT organization. This particular "human right" is of "Christians concern" but in other cases it seems how other things are not of "Christian concerns" (for example ecology, poverty, social problems of many kinds, etc). Social activity to make this life and this world to be better is not of "Christian concern" because, as WTJWorg explained, this World is "sinking ship" and why to rescue what will sink? On contrary, whole world from Adam and Eve time is "sinking ship", so it is interesting that God find interest and have concern to save this "sinking" World from ruin.

Stanley Milgram's experiments and Asch’s paradigm explained and revealed us some interesting details how people in power and group influence can make us to do and think wrong.

What if 42 different GB sets, series of members have to be changed while in spiritual deserts on way to promise land :))

It is interesting. Well, IF WTJWorg consider themselves as "Israelite" on there way to Kingdom, it means how they are not in "spiritual paradise" today, but rather waking around in deserts of this world. :))

Sadly, her viewpoint is fanatical. Perhaps one of the questions will be: What religion do you belong to. Then she may not deny the truth, give a testimony, and say she is a JW. :))

If 144000 are "Kings" and "Priests", than Kingdom which started in 33 or in 1914 is not complete or legal enough without all "governors" as members of government or administration. If Jesus is able, entitled to make decisions and to rule without 144000 now, today, than he is capable to doing this in the future too. In that respect 144000 is not necessary to participate in administration in the "heaven" or on the "earth".

"Keep on the watch" is the best advice, for so many things (everything) in the people's life. In the past WTJWorg said how time will come when "preaching" will be stopped, just before Armageddon. But it was never said, as i can recall, how Covid 19 or similar "unconscious" cause/condition (wars, famines, earthquakes, etc.) would do that. Soon Jehovah will decide to stop the preaching of the good news and “the end” will come. (Matthew 24:14) - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102015149 Of course, WT publish company using word "soon" so often and for few things about "the end" of the World, for decades, almost for whole century and half, in fact. Well, we have almost dubious situation about claim how GB/FDS in WTJWorg is God's Spoke Person here on Earth who is sole "channel" in warning people to "keep on watch", as they claim. But this sort of "keep on watch" is/was inside WTJWorg interpretations what this Jesus' words supposedly have to mean and when meaning of this words is at "right place" and in "right time". And they (GB) failed so many times. If GB is only spoke person for god on earth, than this mean how JHVH decision about moment when "preaching will stop" shall come from GB. But they not sending such direct message. Mass sale of real estate can be sort of "message"in that direction, but can be "announcement" for something else too. Title of WT article down/below and WTJWorg moves are significant in current events about CSA. Love People, Not Money and Possessions Secret 1 Love People, Not Money and Possessions WHAT DOES THE BIBLE TEACH? “The love of money is a root of all sorts of injurious things.”—1 Timothy 6:10. - https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/wp20101101/Love-People-Not-Money-and-Possessions/

It seems that instructions are given here on how to discover the truth with a simple method. Look, wait and when enough time has passed the prophecy will be fulfilled or will not be fulfilled. So, when someone preaches “the end is near” or “the end is far,” don’t believe it. :)) When members of churches preaching "the end is near", "we are living in final part of last days" that is good because we, who live now have good chance to see how their "prophecy" falls, collapses .... again.