Srecko Sostar

5 hours ago, Witness said:

I lived several years in the redwoods, miles up the coast from this park. My husband worked in maintaining their habitat, while making it accessible for all to enjoy. My children played under the protective canopy of these giants ruling the skies, and walked their nourishing streams that meandered and flowed gently among their roots.

This is amazing. Wonderful place and time you had.

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

Are Elders supposed to be lawyers? No!

This have interesting connotations. But according to the role assigned to them by the JW organization, they should be: shepherds who take care of all the needs of their flock, investigators, prosecutors, defenders and judges in cases of "wrongdoings" made by flock.  It would be to much to expect from them to be lawyers too. :))

2 hours ago, Thinking said:

True I took the bait and opened that link that started this fiasco...more fool me and a lesson learned to a degree.

Dear Thinking, in this few days you participated with 10 posts/comments about same event. And now you concluded how you are in some sort of regret for opening "that link" and involved yourself in "this fiasco". Why do you think how speaking about such issue is your or our "fiasco"? Do you feel need for repentance because you involved yourself into this? Do you need to confess your "sin" about this to your elders in congregation? And to tell them how you are in virtual "inappropriate association with weak brothers and former members" ?

The exchange of experiences and opinions that take place here can be helpful in acquiring the skill of discerning truth, falsehood, and that between this two.

9 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

4 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Too often we focus on the accused and forget the other lives upended by this.

Until we see a conviction, we cannot assume that there were any.

I believe Ann O'Maly's viewpoint is of general value, and it does not target particular, this one, case.   

54 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

I use the understanding of scripture just like the Watchtower does.

Having in mind so many "doctrinal errors" produced in the WTJWorg "kitchen", this statement is not so shine to be proud about it and about parallel/similar spiritual voyage you and them have in Bible understanding.  

3 hours ago, Thinking said:

like a mob of gossipy old  women...

:))) is this "sexism" ?

3 hours ago, Anna said:

Whose Responsibility Is It? WT 97/8/15

"When elders learn about serious wrongdoing, they approach the individual involved to give needed help and correction. It is the elders’ responsibility to judge such ones inside the Christian congregation. Keeping a close watch on its spiritual condition, they assist and admonish anyone who is taking an unwise or wrong step.—1 Corinthians 5:12, 13; 2 Timothy 4:2; 1 Peter 5:1, 2.

But what if you are not an elder and you come to know about some serious wrongdoing on the part of another Christian? Guidelines are found in the Law that Jehovah gave to the nation of Israel. The Law stated that if a person was a witness to apostate acts, sedition, murder, or certain other serious crimes, it was his responsibility to report it and to testify to what he knew. Leviticus 5:1 states: “Now in case a soul sins in that he has heard public cursing and he is a witness or he has seen it or has come to know of it, if he does not report it, then he must answer for his error.”—Compare Deuteronomy 13:6-8; Esther 6:2; Proverbs 29:24".

Unfortunately, nowhere in this WT excerpt is there clear direction to whom this "serious wrongdoing" should be reported to.

The text from the magazine is written in a way that shows some ideas. Who should do what and why? It seeks to show the separation of "church from state", "spiritual from secular". And in this way, vague and unclear, the possibility is left for the organization, through other instructions, both public and only for the eyes of elders, to make rules and solutions in accordance with the circumstances and current framework of an event and time and internal policy. And in some situations to invoke the “rights” enjoyed by members of the clergy, the “sworn enemy” of God and Truth and God’s earthly organization i.e. WTJWorg.
From the parts of the text of the WT magazine you put, a difference is expressed in which it is clear that WTJWorg has what it claims it does not have. The existence of a class of clergy and laity. The text states that: "When elders learn about serious wrongdoing, they approach the individual ....  On contrary: But what if you are not an elder and you come to know about some serious wrongdoing ...The Law stated that if a person was a witness to apostate acts, sedition, murder, or certain other serious crimes, it was his responsibility to report it and to testify to what he knew.

Anna, I found answer on your dilemma. Text itself speaking about this context: Elders, not an elder, another Christian and then made comparison with guidance from  Old Israel Law.  Message is clear to whom JW member need to give report. It is also clear from other JW church teachings, and members in this way or another "know" answer, that they need to report matter to elders. Text said "Law" referring to Bible law. Next words are "serious wrongdoing" and especially "apostate act"  and "sedition". From this is very clear that State have nothing with doctrinal things and opposition inside religious organization. 

But writer of text mixing this part of "serious wrongdoing" with other serious things: murder, or certain other serious crimes,. This other things JW member is obligate to report also. To whom? To elders. Well, this WT text show complete "separation" from secular state and show how elders  have to deal not only with "sins" but also with "crimes" too. Text named that with wording "serious wrongdoings" and in numbering few of serious wrongdoings they put "murder" in it and "other serious crimes". This showing tendency that WTJWorg want to have complete power over JW people (and all other people in the future) to judge them not only for "spiritual transgressions",  but for all sort of acts that are known from human history. 

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Is it my imagination or is there evidence that one Elder said that he would not go to the authorities even if a brother confessed to murder. 

I am not sure..., who said that?

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

But the CCJW do not follow scripture. Everything is kept hidden from the congregation. So how can Anna say that " A sin can be forgiven by the congregation, " when the congregation have no information. 

Yes, i understand. If elders make decision about, that sin is forgivable, than congregation follow direction.

7 hours ago, Anna said:

 A sin can be forgiven by the congregation, but the person still obviously has to be punished by secular authorities for the crime. I do know of an example, nothing to do with CSA but theft and fraud. My friend studied with the  man, and the man became JW.

Yes, thanks, i recall such examples from magazines, about people who done crime while was "worldly" people. But i was interested more about experiences about actual JW members who committed crime and how elders/congregation had deal with it.

3 minutes ago, Anna said:

Of course as has been mentioned many times, the two witness rule plays no role in whether someone goes to the authoroties or not. It is only for the congregation and for the handling of the sin aspect of the crime, not the crime itself.

Just for the sake of discussion.

If there is no confession of the defendant and if there are no two witnesses for a crime (not a sin) before the Court and if the Court convicts a JW member with prison time sentence, the question is: Can and on what basis a convicted JW member remain a member of the organization? May and on what basis be a Judicial Committee formed to discuss a convicted brother? Will he be expelled during his imprisonment or will JC summon him for questioning after serving his sentence? And similar. Perhaps you know some real life situations?

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Donald Trump

Yeah, how blessed people must be with their leaders, capitalist or communist :))

The Trump administration proposed rule changes that would allow shower heads to boost water pressure, after Trump repeatedly complained that bathroom fixtures do not work to his liking.

The Department of Energy plan followed comments from Trump last month at a White House event on rolling back regulations. He said he believed water does not come out fast enough from fixtures.

“So what do you do? You just stand there longer or you take a shower longer? Because my hair – I don’t know about you, but it has to be perfect. Perfect,” he said.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/12/us-shower-pressure-trump-hair-water

10 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Before anyone here sells anyone short, there is no right or wrong answer

10 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Scriptural point is, we obey all authorities, but when those authorities are just doing things the right things for the greater “good” of the people.

10 hours ago, César Chávez said:

When government does a census, what is the government ideology behind that census taking?

10 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Therefore, it would be a personal choice if a person lives in a geographical area where government injustice is plainly seen. Does that make that person extreme? NO!

10 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Is it wrong to take a census? No, when it doesn’t undermine the will of God.

7 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Add to that the census which is of a similar nature to calling for the tax, calling for fear, or compliance, honour, etc.  We are in no position to look into their minds to see what they are using the taxes for or what they are going to achieve with the census.  It is their right to call for it if they wish.

 And that is all I am going to say about that.

CC for sure made interesting points on subject. But, because many of you are part of JW congregation, you are under pressure. From one side WTJWorg doctrine is about how members have to be complete "neutral" toward "worldly things" and to not even express personal opinions about secular subjects. Because that is not of your "concern", that is what belong to "worldly people". JW members don't want to be involved, nor intellectually neither physically in matters of this world. 

According to "official viewpoint" of WTJWorg, members are not allowed to participate in any "social improvement" or in any activity that is seen as "worldly activity" from perspective of JW doctrine and policy. On other side GB leadership  allowed participation of their own representatives in "worldly institution" aka OSCE and have some sort of political involvement and participation and contribution to this "old system of things" in "improving" political and civil freedoms. If we speaking about "human rights" or "civil rights" they are in fact "political rights", because secular governments create "politic /policy" which make it possible to have this and that "freedom" or "rights".

If JW members found his free will to agree or disagree with some movement of "secular authorities" (as CC recommended) than they are also entitled to agree and disagree with GB politics too. Because this both "authorities", one is "secular" and other is "spiritual" are in subject to same "supreme authority" of god, according to Bible interpretations. By obeying god instead/over "GB" or "secular government" JW people with own "free judgement" would/will be in better position to prove "neutrality" in next/greater sense of the meaning of that word - to be "independent" from influence of other people.   

8 hours ago, Rozz said:

The government uses the currency to do illegal and legal things that’s not Christians concern.

8 hours ago, Rozz said:

Until that time we remain obedient to the laws of the land as long as they don’t conflict with our God Jehovah

It is interesting how we sometimes put ourselves in contradictory positions. WTJWorg is expert on this field, and successfully teaching members how to act in that manner. 

The best example is "human rights". WTJWorg and CCJW are so fast to go to Courts and going against "governments" when some law of some land limits actions of WT organization. This particular "human right" is of "Christians concern" but in other cases it seems how other things are not of "Christian concerns" (for example ecology, poverty, social problems of many kinds, etc). Social activity to make this life and this world to be better is not of "Christian concern" because, as WTJWorg explained, this World is "sinking ship" and why to rescue what will sink?   

On contrary, whole world from Adam and Eve time is "sinking ship", so it is interesting that God find interest and have concern to save this "sinking" World from ruin.

On 8/14/2020 at 7:41 PM, Witness said:

Can our heart be manipulated by wickedness and the dominance of others?  Most certainly.

On 8/13/2020 at 11:03 PM, 4Jah2me said:

subservient = prepared to obey others unquestioningly.

Stanley Milgram's experiments and Asch’s paradigm explained and revealed us some interesting details how people in power and group influence can make us to do and think wrong.

On 8/16/2020 at 3:29 PM, 4Jah2me said:

The 42 months in Revelation 11:2 and 13:5 has been associated with the 42 different camps of Israel on their way to the promised land

What if 42 different GB sets, series of members have to be changed while in spiritual deserts on way to promise land :))

On 8/16/2020 at 3:29 PM, 4Jah2me said:

Like the Israelites who moved from place to place, the church also has not attained her permanent spiritual "land," but is still being taught, and led, often in a roundabout way, to her final destination, the promised "rest," and the eternal inheritance of the saints.

It is interesting. Well, IF WTJWorg consider themselves as "Israelite" on there way to Kingdom, it means how they are not in "spiritual paradise" today, but rather waking around in deserts of this world. :)) 

1 hour ago, Matthew9969 said:

My jw mom said she isn't going to fill it out because jw's are no part of this nation.

Sadly, her viewpoint is fanatical. Perhaps one of the questions will be: What religion do you belong to. Then she may not deny the truth, give a testimony, and say she is a JW. :))

7 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

There had been previous teaching in the CCJW that the Apostles had been resurrected already, but now by studying the scriptures we can see that is not true. So please explain how the Kingdom started to rule in 1914 ?  It is God's Kingdom, with Christ as the King, but there seems to be no one else ruling it at this time ? 

7 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Apostles are still asleep in the grave. We have learnt that they will be resurrected at the same time that the living Anointed will be 'transformed' from human to spirit. 

If 144000 are "Kings" and "Priests", than Kingdom which started in 33 or in 1914 is not complete or legal enough without all "governors" as members of government or administration. If Jesus is able, entitled to make decisions and to rule without 144000 now, today, than he is capable to doing this in the future too. In that respect 144000 is not necessary to participate in administration in the "heaven" or on the "earth".

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

Jesus told his disciples to 'Keep on the watch' and God's written word recorded that.

"Keep on the watch" is the best advice, for so many things (everything) in the people's life. 

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

So maybe the Org needs to downshift completely earthwide, if the 'end' is so near.

In the past WTJWorg said how time will come when "preaching" will be stopped, just before Armageddon. But it was never said, as i can recall, how Covid 19 or similar "unconscious" cause/condition (wars, famines, earthquakes, etc.) would do that.

Soon Jehovah will decide to stop the preaching of the good news and “the end” will come. (Matthew 24:14) - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102015149

Of course, WT publish company using word "soon" so often and for few things about "the end" of the World, for decades, almost for whole century and half, in fact. Well, we have almost dubious situation about claim how GB/FDS in WTJWorg is God's Spoke Person here on Earth who is sole "channel" in warning people to "keep on watch", as they claim.

But this sort of "keep on watch" is/was inside WTJWorg interpretations what this Jesus' words supposedly have to mean and when meaning of this words is at "right place" and in "right time". And they (GB) failed so many times. If GB is only spoke person for god on earth, than this mean how JHVH decision about moment when "preaching will stop" shall come from GB. But they not sending such direct message. Mass sale of real estate can be sort of "message"in that direction, but can be "announcement"  for something else too. Title of WT article down/below and WTJWorg moves are significant in current events about CSA.

Love People, Not Money and Possessions

 Secret 1

Love People, Not Money and Possessions

WHAT DOES THE BIBLE TEACH? “The love of money is a root of all sorts of injurious things.”—1 Timothy 6:10. - https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/wp20101101/Love-People-Not-Money-and-Possessions/

On 5/31/2020 at 6:40 PM, JJJ-AUSTRALIA said:

Deuteronomy 18:20-22

It seems that instructions are given here on how to discover the truth with a simple method. 

Look, wait and when enough time has passed the prophecy will be fulfilled or will not be fulfilled. So, when someone preaches “the end is near” or “the end is far,” don’t believe it. :)) 

When members of churches preaching "the end is near", "we are living in final part of last days" that is good because we, who live now have good chance to see how their "prophecy" falls, collapses .... again.  

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

did God speak "directly" to the people or did he speak to Moses personally.

Please, define "directly" and define "personally". What this mean to you? Or/and to JW religion interpretation. Is it your and JW official interpretation the same? 

18 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Where in scripture do you find God spoke directly to the people?

Do you try to make joke of me or of yourself? :))

21 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Where in scripture can I find Jesus had no interaction with Rome and its laws?

We two, both have interactions here. Does this mean how you have intend to "replace" me with someone else? Who said Jesus had no "interactions" with people and institutions around him? :)) 

31 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Have you fully understood what that secular structure entails?

Perhaps not, but my position in that issue does not diminish the stated fact about other issue - secular structure, namely Court, asked WTJWorg for documents about CSA, and GB decided to not give documentation and help victims to find some sort of "justice and truth".