Srecko Sostar

Please, define "directly" and define "personally". What this mean to you? Or/and to JW religion interpretation. Is it your and JW official interpretation the same?

Do you try to make joke of me or of yourself? :)) We two, both have interactions here. Does this mean how you have intend to "replace" me with someone else? Who said Jesus had no "interactions" with people and institutions around him? :)) Perhaps not, but my position in that issue does not diminish the stated fact about other issue - secular structure, namely Court, asked WTJWorg for documents about CSA, and GB decided to not give documentation and help victims to find some sort of "justice and truth".

People were thirsty and needed water, and they asked for water. They asked for water from Moses as God representative on Earth. In Bible there are a verses that said how we can ask from Father whatever we want and He will give us. Perhaps something else was behind Moses statement and his fear for life. Or as chapter 16 said; In this way I will test them and see whether they will follow my instructions. This testings (of people and leadership) of all sorts are very common and often in Bible. Preach me more about this and "earthly spiritual power". Not so sure what is issue here, because of my English. Jesus said that he has nothing with this world. In that respect Jesus done nothing to "superseded" Roman power. Roman power belonged to "secular authorities" as God's servant, so i don't see what and why Jesus would have to done to "supersede" Roman or any other secular government in past or even today. Today, these "secular governments" doing same task as in the past, when Epistle to the Romans was written. Another issue is "theocratic government". Very good. Then why WTJWorg GB with own "theocratic structure of power" are not in subjection to "secular structure of power" and give CSA documentation to the Courts and other Institutions that investigate this problem, this crime (Australian Branch is exception)?

I think how "papers and administration" are complicated almost everywhere in the world. :)) From this, should we, could we conclude how Bible is not enough for WTJWorg Administration today, to manage things about "God's earthly mountain-like organization" on 1st century Christian Congregation foundation and example?? And next, if "inspired by holy spirit" was only thing what make 1st century Christian Congregation to be successful and according to God's will and inside Jesus' teachings, don't we have problem today, because people in Management of this organization (GB+Helpers+Lawyers+Elders) are just "guided by spirit"?? According to WT publications "guided by spirit" means plenty of err doctrines and instructions. If we add, as you said; complexity internally, modern society is a lot more complex, cannot organize things the same way, would be inefficient today - what guaranties JW members have that their's organization is in harmony with principles established by Jesus and how this modern organization is copy-paste (type-antitype) of 1st Congregation as role model, despite fact how all was drastically changed after almost 2000 years? Do not forget how 1st Congregation made, not just mistakes in teachings and guiding members, but ended in apostasy. If these happened to people who was "inspired by spirit", how much worst it can be for people who are lower on that "spiritual scale" - namely "guided by spirit"?

Perhaps CC would say how this part, of WTJWorg you explained me, is just "visual effect" :))

Does Father need your "monthly report", for example? Or is it just "visual effect" in mind of former members?

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." To continue; why WTJWorg need to have enormous numbers of rules, instructions and various policies, similar to Old Law that Jesus put out of power? Little and big WTJWorg "laws". Jesus made "simplified edition" and "Jesus Law" said this: “Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ” - Gal 6:2. (To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.- 1 Cor 9:21) Most Bible teachers understand the law of Christ to be what Christ stated were the greatest commandments in Mark 12:28–31, “‘Which commandment is the most important of all?’ Jesus answered, ‘The most important is, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.” The second is this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” There is no other commandment greater than these.’” Well again, have to ask: why WTJWorg need to have massive organizational structure (half religious and half secular) with hierarchy and all various departments, when Jesus ask from his followers only to "Carry each other’s burdens"??!! :))

And you are sure that WT with GB listens Christ in all things, little and big? Please, we need to separate "inspired Word of God" from "uninspired human organization structure". How you can came to idea that "perfect word" created "imperfect organization"? Bible is "relatively" "perfect", because it is given to "imperfect human". What imperfect human can do with perfect words? They would not be able to understand "perfect language". In that respect Bible is something "perfect" to people, humankind in particular periods of time. But many things in Bible are not "perfect" any more. For example does it "Perfect Law" in time of Moses given to old Israel, is "perfect" for people today, for JW members today??!! No, it is not. And JW's proves that every single day, because they not living by "perfect Words" written in The Law. Even God himself "destroyed" His own "perfect words" and replaced it with Jesus's Teachings. And you are ready to believe, with millions of JW's, how WTJWorg is divine structure similar to Old Israel? If you want to be Jesus's follower, disciple you will recognize how Jesus did not support nothing similar to Old Jew "Theocracy".

Dear @The Librarian you make little confusion by removing some posts under new topic. Title: When i strongly criticize WTJWorg + GB + Helpers, why is this same to you as criticizing God? is part of my comment in responding to @César Chávez and it is not topic made by @Arauna. What do you suggest? Topic can be interesting for discussion and perhaps people would like to participate.

What was the idea behind Paul's ideology? Was it for those that wanted to keep the point of view of the Pharisees, or was it to agree those that objected to sound doctrine should continue in their own path. I guess how idea behind Moses's, John the Baptist's, or Paul's ideology or first Christian's people is Holy Spirit. JW people accepts idea how holy spirit is behind their speech, letters, deeds. But GB said how you all who belong to united worldwide congregation of JW's are just "guided by spirit", but not "filled or inspired by spirit". In the same time you all, as leaders and members, continue to claim how all what you teach is and must be "the truth". The truth that can be err, wrong, that need clarifications, that have to be changed because of misconceptions and wrong interpretations, and so on and so on. First of all, WTJWorg idea how "guided by spirit" is different of "to be inspired or "to be filled by spirit" is missed conception. All three expressions are same in meaning. Manifestations "of spirit" can be various. But JW's wrongly accept idea how "to be inspired" meaning miraculous work, for example speaking in tongues, or prophesied, or healing, or walking on water etc. Even more, JW's think how only text that is written and is part of Bible is only what was "inspired". And how only "spiritual doctrine" belong to thing that is, can be "inspired", and how all that finished in 1st century. GB invented conception how "guided by spirit" gives them permission for wrong and err doctrines and instructions that leads millions of people. But in the same time said how GB is FDS and only, sole "channel" in the World who giving "Truth" to the people. Because, as they explained, "inspired by spirit" means "infallibility". :)) ... and on other hand "guided by spirit" means "fallibility". :)) And how no one is "guilty" for "imperfect spiritual food" on "JHVH table" today. No one in GB. But JW members are "guilty" for wrong understanding of wrong doctrine (misunderstanding of wrong doctrines). :)) Exodus 35:30-35 Then Moses said to the sons of Israel, “See, the Lord has called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. And He has filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding and in knowledge and in all craftsmanship; to make designs for working in gold and in silver and in bronze, and in the cutting of stones for settings and in the carving of wood, so as to perform in every inventive work. He also has put in his heart to teach, both he and Oholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan. He has filled them with skill to perform every work of an engraver and of a designer and of an embroiderer, in blue and in purple and in scarlet material, and in fine linen, and of a weaver, as performers of every work and makers of design These verses confirms view how influence of HS on people can not be limited on things that GB want to limit as HS scope of action in limited particular time periods. In the past or today. Actual member or former member or not member at all .... Judge is impartial. :)) When it comes to spiritual unity, yes! However, when a member resorts to sin on their own, what part of Christ body do you wish for them to be attached to? Does, this mean you are "guilty" for humanities pedophiles?. Please, in what kind of "spiritual unity " you are in, with JW pedophiles ? Remember that my comment was about "collective" - So you are in favor of a collective approach? Well, your "collective unity" is good until something wrong happened. Even GB don't want "collective responsibility" for CSA cases. They said how that is act of "individual member". And sending WT lawyers to defend WTJWorg before Court on this issue. GB don't want to "bear the guilt of your brother who is a pedophile" , nor literally neither spiritually, but it seems you are ready.

Paul speaks of the rebellion of the Levites against Moses and Aaron. So it is a struggle for supremacy within the hierarchy. With this example, Paul speaks to the Corinthians who rebel against the counsel and teachings that Paul taught the congregation in Corinth. We can see a parallel because some were against Paul as an “apostle”. What does this have to do with those JW or ex-JW who do not want to listen/obey to today's "apostles", who are constantly changing their own teachings? WT+GB+Helpers+WT lawyers spiritual and physical deeds are revealed by their own actions. Nobody "slender" them. Well, why you find yourself fit to judge me or someone else, than? Or, you think how only certain people in WT have privilege to judge other people in and out side WTJWorg, and how that certain individuals are in Top Management of your organization? So you are in favor of a collective approach? Are you willing to bear the guilt of your brother who is a pedophile? Are you ready to bear the guilt of your elders and lawyers lying before a secular court and uses deception to cover up the real situation? Do you want to be judged for what you did not do? I know of only one man who took the sins of all others and died for it. Are you ready to do the same? :))

In ex-YU some of people who listened JW preaching used to say how Jesus was first communist. Communism (from Latin communis, 'common, universal')[1][2] is a philosophical, social, political, economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of a communist society, namely a socioeconomic order structured upon the ideas of common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money[3][4] and the state.[5][6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

In communist YU under Tito (the "best" communism of all types that was mentioned here :)), there was saying: You can not pay me so little, how little work I can do

I am not "commanding" neither God nor GB, nor JW's. "condemn" - to criticize something or someone strongly, usually for moral reasons: -https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/condemn When i strongly criticize WTJWorg + GB + Helpers, why is this same to you as criticizing God? I am not "demanding" nothing from you, JW's or God. And i would add, i don't expecting nothing from all of you. And as you say God is God. Who am i to demand or expect that God have to adjust His act with my feelings and thoughts? :))

As i can recall Bible text, God has never forbidden people to express to him their questions, feelings, dilemmas, anger, disappointments, irrationality or their madness, ...etc. Well, conclusion is obvious. You are not entitled to forbid or judge things which God allows people. :))

Regular or not, WT and other sister companies under GB directive are mix of many various entities in various forms of existence: IT company, Building company, Charity, Educational system, Religion, Civil participant for human and religious (political) rights in secular bodies, Financial company for collecting and multiplying money, and perhaps more. Yes, WT is specific formation with "Priests and Kings" who wish and hope to take rulership over the Earth aka power over humankind.

Sorry, i am not follow you. Prosecutor's perspective? I made quotes from article that described Court ruling, decisions and explanations, and nothing from prosecutor or his perspective. WT lawyer who defended Organization made "perspectives" and Court made "perspectives". With or without understanding, WT lawyers often undermine the truth. With or without scripture. With or without WT published material as "prove", WT Society want to act as theocratic state inside secular state. One popular Bible verse for that, for sure is, when 1st century followers were advised and recommended to go to elder's court of justice and not to secular courts, for their rights or because of lawsuits against fellow Christians. According to WT doctrines and policies, all elders are "equipped" to deal with all and every situation that can happen in "spiritual paradise" aka Organization aka JW Congregation. They formed "Judicial Committees" and other elder's bodies to fulfill various tasks in such process and proceeding. The existence of a "keepers"-brothers who monitoring (don't know English terminology in JW congregation, servant service, stewards or so) at meetings and congresses speaks of such a similarity too. Similarity is visible.

If God already see "harvest" in someone, than all this passed (and future) times of examinations, trials, sufferings, misery, exams, tests, right and wrong truths, punishments from god or human, remorse and/or stubbornness for an act done or not done, calling people to join this or that church, searching for answers, fear of the future and fear of god’s final judgment, fear of disappointing god ...etc. are unnecessary. Almost vast of time. But God is eternal, He has all time. Here we have question; Did god knew what will happen with Adam and Eve? And WTJWorg answer how god didn't want to go and look for their future because He respects free will and don't want enters someone’s privacy... ??!! Perhaps we all are part of "experiment"? :))

Article quote: A new Supreme Court ruling that Jehovah’s Witnesses are free to banish and shun any member they wish, regardless of how they decide to do it, offers a powerful precedent for religious independence in Canada. I would like to direct your attention how Court in Canada confirmed what WT lawyer David Gnam in UK tried to hide: JW's shun any member they wish. WT lawyer claimed before Court how: Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t use the word “shun” or “shunning”. But this Court in Canada told The Truth, JW's not only using word shun, but have all rights to practice shunning over members (or ex members) they wish. - WTJWorg are so satisfied to use double measures in various court cases, and have no problem about own hypocrisy. Shameful! Article continue: The top court’s decision rejects that view, bluntly refers to his “sinful” behaviour, and says it has no business making legal decisions about it. At issue were two episodes of drunkenness, one in which Wall “verbally abused” his wife, for which he was not “sufficiently repentant,” according to court records. I don't clearly see how two episodes of drunkenness, one in which Wall “verbally abused” his wife is not something that can be interesting to police or social service or some other civil service in state. Drunkenness and abusing other people is something that is punishable in most countries. In his case somebody reported him to JW elders and not to secular authority for his "sinful behavior". If JW church have right, according to Canadian Supreme Court, to make decisions how they will "punish" "sinful behavior" of member, what is that different when some other church doing same according to their "religious beliefs", because as article say: But the Supreme Court has now said once and for all that the courts ought not to interfere in religious discipline. Well, what is this different to "religious discipline", for example, to cut hand of thief or to stone adulteress because of their "sin" -The top court’s decision rejects that view, bluntly refers to his “sinful” behaviour, and says it has no business making legal decisions about it. But all "civilized world" looks with disapproval when this sort of punishment is common practice in some societies. :))

Please CC, as usual i put in question people. People who claims that they working God's job and will on Earth. But also, we are entitled to put some questions to God too. Clever or stupid, disturbing or suspicious, which question "God’s decisions" revealed in Bible. Revealed by writing hands of human and translated by human, with various interpretations made by human aka religious systems aka organized religions. Well, in all that i or somebody else not questioning God solely, but also or to be said, more than God we have to question human visions and interpretations of God, too. For sake of argument only, i will ask god again, why He need more time for "issues" about ... "can people rule without god?", "why does god allow evil?". ... for this questions has been answered by men (and angels) long before.

Don’t forget that most of the problems and injustices were done by those people who used God’s Word to “get others in order”. Self-righteous and zealous, always ready to trow "first stone".

By reading Paul's words, i would conclude how all that already happened in his time. Paul under inspiration wrote about him and some other people ( he said - "we") who will "survive presence". And after that "surviving" they will be "caught away in clouds". It is free to be conclude how Jesus "presence" happened in Paul's time. He, Paul, speaking about it as he and them (he said - "we") will participate in that going to Lord. He was "inspired" to tell this. Under "inspiration" he made prophecy and future event that is sure and that will affect "their" lives (his and people he told about as - "we"), and not about some other people lives 20 centuries later. And, of course, another detail we have to take in consideration. No matter is number "144 000" literal or symbolic, Christian congregation/s in 1st century for sure had more than 144 000 (anointed) followers of Jesus. ----------------------------- What is the meaning of this described event? This was literal and visible to physical eyes and happened before Paul's words. And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people. - Matt 27

All these decades in the Organization .... it has been constantly taught that the anointed began to be resurrected from 1914. And this as if they were all resurrected at the same time, and those who died after 1914 were also resurrected to life in heaven in moment of death. What was strange is Paul's words about "instantly change". No one in WTJWorg was never saw nothing like that from 1914 till today. Well, what really happened in 1914? Or any year before or after (Russell', Rutherford' etc. guessing)? Because, no JW anointed was not affected by the "change", which should be "seen" on the living anointed, it can easily be concluded that we do not live in time of parousia or in time of "parousia's interpretations". Once again, WT doctrines and interpretations are so problematic.

I personally never heard about such things. But it is possible that such decisions of the JW elders also happen.

Purpose of this Forum is unknown to me. Owners knows real meaning and reasons for existing. But I am glad to be user and participant in various topics, and can say, "Thanks" for this Forum. Of course that you are right when said how this Forum can "vanish into the abyss I don’t think they would miss it." if you ask WTJWorg. In fact they would be very happy to see this happen. Because our conversation challenging WT doctrines and revealing how this religion often manipulate with people's emotions and minds. And how they are ready to deceive and to change rhetoric when it is need. For example, Geoffrey Jackson, GB member aka Top Manager of Society, publicly claimed before ARC how they, GB, are not the only spokesperson for God on Earth. On other hand they teaching members how they have to obey GB in all instructions and follow the leadership of GB, because that is only way to survive Armageddon. I am almost surprised that you Tom gave such bad review about this Forum and tell others that they waste their time here on this Forum. Perhaps JWorg have some better "Forum"? I hope you would take participation there, in the same manner you doing here. :))