Srecko Sostar

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

Exodus 17:4

People were thirsty and needed water, and they asked for water. They asked for water from Moses as God representative on Earth. In Bible there are a verses that said how we can ask from Father whatever we want and He will give us. Perhaps something else was behind Moses statement and his fear for life. Or as chapter 16 said; In this way I will test them and see whether they will follow my instructions. 

This testings (of people and leadership) of all sorts are very common and often in Bible.  

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

Then Jesus expands Gods earthy spiritual power to others

Preach me more about this and "earthly spiritual power".

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

At what point do you believe Jesus superseded the secular power of Rome that can be applied in today's world?

Not so sure what is issue here, because of my English. 

Jesus said that he has nothing with this world. In that respect Jesus done nothing to "superseded" Roman power. Roman power belonged to "secular authorities" as God's servant, so i don't see what and why Jesus would have to done to "supersede" Roman or any other secular government in past or even today.

Today, these "secular governments" doing same task as in the past, when Epistle to the Romans was written.

Another issue is "theocratic government".

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

The power and authority belongs to God. By questioning how earthly structure should be to satisfy the needs and wants of the people will ultimately be applied by God. That is accepted by a true Christian. Anyone questioning it is once again questioning God himself regardless if its from a point of view coming from the outside looking in, or from inside looking at it from a worldly perspective.

Very good. Then why WTJWorg GB with own "theocratic structure of power" are not in subjection to "secular structure of power" and give CSA documentation to the Courts and other Institutions that investigate this problem, this crime (Australian Branch is exception)?  

12 hours ago, Anna said:

... rules and regulations of the country. In America, it seems these are extra complex. 

I think how "papers and administration" are complicated almost everywhere in the world. :)) 

12 hours ago, Anna said:

Everything in the first century was so much simpler because there were not as many problems as we see in modern American society.

12 hours ago, Anna said:

As for the complexity internally, well don't forget modern society is a lot more complex. You cannot organize things the same way as in the first Century. What worked well then, would be inefficient today.

From this, should we, could we conclude how Bible is not enough for WTJWorg Administration today, to manage things about "God's earthly mountain-like organization" on 1st century Christian Congregation foundation and example??

And next, if "inspired by holy spirit" was only thing what make 1st century Christian Congregation to be successful and according to God's will and inside Jesus' teachings, don't we have problem today, because people in Management of this organization (GB+Helpers+Lawyers+Elders) are just "guided by spirit"?? According to WT publications "guided by spirit" means plenty of err doctrines and instructions.

If we add, as you said; complexity internally, modern society is a lot more complex,  cannot organize things the same way, would be inefficient today -  what guaranties JW members have that their's organization is in harmony with principles established by Jesus and how this modern organization is copy-paste (type-antitype) of 1st Congregation as role model, despite fact how all was drastically changed after almost 2000 years? Do not forget how 1st Congregation made, not just mistakes in teachings and guiding members, but ended in apostasy. If these happened to people who was "inspired by spirit", how much worst it can be for people who are lower on that "spiritual scale" - namely "guided by spirit"?

3 hours ago, Anna said:

The short answer: Because the HQ are in America.

The longer answer: In order to be legally established you have to comply with rules and regulations of the country. In America, it seems these are extra complex. 

Then also, because you are in America, you have to protect yourself legally, which means against potential lawsuits. America is the land of litigation. People here sue (and win) for the most ridiculous things. I know, I live here.

Everything in the first century was so much simpler because there were not as many problems as we see in modern American society. But even in the first century, the preaching work had to be legally established - Philippians 1:7.

As for the complexity internally, well don't forget modern society is a lot more complex. You cannot organize things the same way as in the first Century. What worked well then, would be inefficient today.

Perhaps CC would say how this part, of WTJWorg you explained me, is just  "visual effect" :))

4 hours ago, César Chávez said:

The GB don't burden themselves to the structure of man, but instill the value of our heavenly father.

Does Father need your "monthly report", for example? Or is it just "visual effect" in mind of former members?  

4 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Once again, the understanding of scripture with issues driven by outside influences become questionable when the ideology is taken out of context. Jesus was well versed in the ancient scrolls as well as the misapplication of Jewish laws. Therefore, to understand the difference, the right context of Matthew 5:17 needs to be applied.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

To continue; why WTJWorg need to have enormous numbers of rules, instructions and various policies, similar to Old Law that Jesus put out of power? Little and big WTJWorg "laws". Jesus made "simplified edition" and "Jesus Law" said this: “Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ” - Gal 6:2.  (To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.- 1 Cor 9:21)

Most Bible teachers understand the law of Christ to be what Christ stated were the greatest commandments in Mark 12:28–31, “‘Which commandment is the most important of all?’ Jesus answered, ‘The most important is, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.” The second is this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” There is no other commandment greater than these.’”

Well again, have to ask: why WTJWorg need to have massive organizational structure (half religious and half secular) with hierarchy and all various departments, when Jesus ask from his followers only to "Carry each other’s burdens"??!! :))

6 hours ago, César Chávez said:

What is true is, God will hold those accountable for not listening to Christ as the Watchtower does.

And you are sure that WT with GB listens Christ in all things, little and big? 

6 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Since the Watchtower structures itself is through the inspired word of God,

Please, we need to separate "inspired Word of God" from "uninspired human organization structure". How you can came to idea that "perfect word" created "imperfect organization"?

Bible is "relatively" "perfect", because it is given to "imperfect human". What imperfect human can do with perfect words? They would not be able to understand "perfect language". In that respect Bible is something "perfect" to people, humankind in particular periods of time. But many things in Bible are not "perfect" any more. For example does it "Perfect Law" in time of Moses given to old Israel, is "perfect" for people today, for JW members today??!! No, it is not. And JW's proves that every single day, because they not living by "perfect Words" written in The Law. Even God himself "destroyed" His own "perfect words" and replaced it with Jesus's Teachings.

And you are ready to believe, with millions of JW's, how WTJWorg is divine structure similar to Old Israel? If you want to be Jesus's follower, disciple you will recognize how Jesus did not support nothing similar to Old Jew "Theocracy".

Dear @The Librarian you make little confusion by removing some posts under new topic.  Title: When i strongly criticize WTJWorg + GB + Helpers, why is this same to you as criticizing God? is part of my comment in responding to @César Chávez and it is not topic made by @Arauna. 

What do you suggest? Topic can be interesting for discussion and perhaps people would like to participate.

5 hours ago, César Chávez said:

On 8/1/2020 at 5:12 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

What does this have to do with those JW or ex-JW who do not want to listen/obey to today's "apostles", who are constantly changing their own teachings?

What was the idea behind Paul's ideology? Was it for those that wanted to keep the point of view of the Pharisees, or was it to agree those that objected to sound doctrine should continue in their own path. 

I guess how idea behind Moses's, John the Baptist's, or Paul's ideology or first Christian's people is Holy Spirit. JW people accepts idea how holy spirit is behind their speech, letters, deeds. But GB said how you all who belong to united worldwide congregation of JW's are just "guided by spirit", but not "filled or inspired by spirit". In the same time you all, as leaders and members, continue to claim how all what you teach is and must be "the truth". The truth that can be err, wrong, that need clarifications, that have to be changed because of misconceptions and wrong interpretations, and so on and so on.

First of all, WTJWorg idea how "guided by spirit" is different of "to be inspired or "to be filled by spirit" is missed conception. All three expressions are same in meaning. Manifestations "of spirit" can be various. But JW's wrongly accept idea how "to be inspired" meaning miraculous work, for example speaking in tongues, or prophesied, or healing, or walking on water etc. Even more, JW's think how only text that is written and is part of Bible is only what was "inspired". And how only "spiritual doctrine" belong to thing that is, can be "inspired", and how all that finished in 1st century.  

GB invented conception how "guided by spirit" gives them permission for wrong and err doctrines and instructions that leads millions of people. But in the same time said how GB is FDS and only, sole "channel" in the World who giving "Truth" to the people. Because, as they explained, "inspired by spirit" means "infallibility". :)) ... and on other hand "guided by spirit" means "fallibility". :))

And how no one is "guilty" for "imperfect spiritual food" on "JHVH table" today. No one in GB. But JW members are "guilty" for wrong  understanding  of wrong doctrine (misunderstanding of wrong doctrines). :))

Exodus 35:30-35
Then Moses said to the sons of Israel, “See, the Lord has called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. And He has filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding and in knowledge and in all craftsmanship; to make designs for working in gold and in silver and in bronze, and in the cutting of stones for settings and in the carving of wood, so as to perform in every inventive work. He also has put in his heart to teach, both he and Oholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan. He has filled them with skill to perform every work of an engraver and of a designer and of an embroiderer, in blue and in purple and in scarlet material, and in fine linen, and of a weaver, as performers of every work and makers of design

These verses confirms view how influence of HS on people can not be limited on things that GB want to limit as HS scope of action in limited particular time periods. In the past or today. 

5 hours ago, César Chávez said:

I mentioned God is the one to judge you especially when you are a former member. What does scripture speak about that?

Actual member or former member or not member at all .... Judge is impartial. :))

5 hours ago, César Chávez said:

On 8/1/2020 at 5:12 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Are you willing to bear the guilt of your brother who is a pedophile? 

When it comes to spiritual unity, yes! However, when a member resorts to sin on their own, what part of Christ body do you wish for them to be attached to? Does, this mean you are "guilty" for humanities pedophiles?. 

Please, in what kind of "spiritual unity " you are in, with JW pedophiles ? Remember that my comment was about "collective" - 

On 8/1/2020 at 5:12 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

On 8/1/2020 at 2:42 AM, César Chávez said:

When you question one family member, you are questioning all the family as a whole.

So you are in favor of a collective approach? 

Well, your "collective unity" is good until something wrong happened. Even GB don't want "collective responsibility" for CSA cases. They said how that is act of "individual member". And sending WT lawyers to defend WTJWorg before Court on this issue. GB don't want to  "bear the guilt of your brother who is a pedophile" , nor literally neither spiritually, but it seems you are ready.  

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

1 Corinthians 10:10

Paul speaks of the rebellion of the Levites against Moses and Aaron. So it is a struggle for supremacy within the hierarchy. With this example, Paul speaks to the Corinthians who rebel against the counsel and teachings that Paul taught the congregation in Corinth. We can see a parallel because some were against Paul as an “apostle”.
What does this have to do with those JW or ex-JW who do not want to listen/obey to today's "apostles", who are constantly changing their own teachings?

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

James 4:11-12

WT+GB+Helpers+WT lawyers spiritual and physical deeds are revealed by their own actions. Nobody "slender" them. 

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Matthew 7:2

Well, why you find yourself fit to judge me or someone else, than? Or, you think how only certain people in WT have privilege to judge other people in and out side WTJWorg, and  how that certain individuals are in Top Management of your organization? 

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

When you question one family member, you are questioning all the family as a whole.

So you are in favor of a collective approach? 

Are you willing to bear the guilt of your brother who is a pedophile? Are you ready to bear the guilt of your elders and lawyers lying before a secular court and uses deception to cover up the real situation? Do you want to be judged for what you did not do?

I know of only one man who took the sins of all others and died for it. Are you ready to do the same? :))

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Actually, after communism fell in Eastern Europe, and Jehovah's Witnesses were free to preach and distribute literature, many householders would remark that the paradise illustrations reminded them of communist drawings. More recently, my mum gave the book "God's Kingdom Rules" to one of her studies (a lady in her 70's) and she did not like it at all. She said it was like reading a communist book. This is why in my earlier post I was careful to say that a totalitarian regime ran by imperfect beings is wrong. Most of us know that many of the communist ideologies are actually good, but of course imperfect man is not able to make them work, because man cannot rule over other men.

In ex-YU some of people who listened JW preaching used to say how Jesus was first communist.  

Communism (from Latin communis, 'common, universal')^[1][2] is a philosophical, social, political, economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of a communist society, namely a socioeconomic order structured upon the ideas of common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money^[3][4] and the state.^[5][6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

On 7/30/2020 at 4:06 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

“They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work” Is the expression I have heard of the Soviet Union.

In communist YU under Tito (the "best" communism of all types that was mentioned here :)), there was saying: You can not pay me so little, how little work I can do

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

However, you are not asking but commanding.

I am not "commanding" neither God nor GB, nor JW's.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

You are not asking, but condemning.

"condemn" - to criticize something or someone strongly, usually for moral reasons: -https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/condemn

When i strongly criticize WTJWorg + GB + Helpers, why is this same to you as criticizing God? 

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

You are not asking but demanding.

I am not "demanding" nothing from you, JW's or God. And i would add, i don't expecting nothing from all of you. And as you say God is God. Who am i to demand or expect that God have to adjust His act with my feelings and thoughts?

:))

20 hours ago, César Chávez said:

There's a difference Srecko when you ask a question of God for spiritual guidance and understanding. You are not doing that. You are questioning God himself on how his people should be no different from this wicked world by questioning Gods sovereignty. and telling him to make changes to suit you within modern times.

As i can recall Bible text, God has never forbidden people to express to him their questions, feelings, dilemmas, anger, disappointments, irrationality or their madness,  ...etc. 

Well, conclusion is obvious. You are not entitled to forbid or judge things which God allows people. :))

6 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Incorrect again, secular law wants to treat the Watchtower as a regular corporation just like you, former witnesses. That isn't going to happen, while God continues to be the instrument of our faith.

Regular or not, WT and other sister companies under GB directive are mix of many various entities in various forms of existence: IT company, Building company, Charity, Educational system, Religion, Civil participant for human and religious (political) rights in secular bodies, Financial company for collecting and multiplying money, and perhaps more.

Yes, WT is specific formation with "Priests and Kings" who wish and hope to take rulership over the Earth aka power over humankind. 

57 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Well, that's the prosecutor's perspective isn't it.

Sorry, i am not follow you. Prosecutor's perspective? I made quotes from article that described Court ruling, decisions and explanations, and nothing from prosecutor or his perspective. WT lawyer who defended Organization made "perspectives" and Court made "perspectives". 

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

They are supposed to undermine the truth, when they don't understand scripture law.

With or without understanding, WT lawyers often undermine the truth. 

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

Then you question the Watchtower bylaws as though they should be run like a government. Where in scripture can you "prove" such a notion?

With or without scripture. With or without WT published material as "prove", WT Society want to act as theocratic state inside secular state. One popular Bible verse for that, for sure is, when 1st century followers were advised and recommended to go to elder's court of justice and not to secular courts, for their rights or because of lawsuits against fellow Christians. According to WT doctrines and policies, all elders are "equipped" to deal with all and every situation that can happen in "spiritual paradise" aka Organization aka JW Congregation. They formed "Judicial Committees" and other elder's bodies to fulfill various tasks in such process and proceeding. The existence of a "keepers"-brothers who monitoring (don't know English terminology in JW congregation, servant service, stewards or so) at meetings and congresses speaks of such a similarity too. Similarity is visible. 

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

We live in "historical time" and must use concepts like "harvest time" "thousand year reign" "last days" "last hour" "times of the nations" (gentile times), "this generation." But Jehovah's thoughts are unimaginably higher than our thoughts, especially as he "knows the end from the beginning." Jesus knew the mind of his father, so some of his uses of terms will reflect this. Knowing the end from the beginning can include reading hearts in such a way that Jehovah can already see the "harvest" in someone, even during the "sowing" season. And from this perspective, multiple fulfillments of a prophecy can work out even if not all the details of one fulfillment would fit the next.

If God already see "harvest" in someone, than all this passed (and future) times of examinations, trials, sufferings, misery, exams, tests, right and wrong truths, punishments from god or human, remorse and/or stubbornness for an act done or not done, calling people to join this or that church, searching for answers, fear of the future and fear of god’s final judgment, fear of disappointing god ...etc. are unnecessary. Almost vast of time. But God is eternal, He has all time.

Here we have question; Did god knew what will happen with Adam and Eve? And WTJWorg answer how god didn't want to go and look for their future because He respects free will and don't want enters someone’s privacy... ??!! Perhaps we all are part of "experiment"? :))

6 hours ago, César Chávez said:

This was the same scheme used in Canada

Article quote:

A new Supreme Court ruling that Jehovah’s Witnesses are free to banish and shun any member they wish, regardless of how they decide to do it, offers a powerful precedent for religious independence in Canada.

I would like to direct your attention how Court in Canada confirmed what WT lawyer David Gnam in UK tried to hide: JW's shun any member they wish. WT lawyer claimed before Court how: Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t use the word “shun” or “shunning”.   But this Court in Canada told The Truth, JW's not only using word shun, but have all rights to practice shunning over members (or ex members) they wish. - 

WTJWorg are so satisfied to use double measures in various court cases, and have no problem about own hypocrisy. Shameful! 

Article continue:

The top court’s decision rejects that view, bluntly refers to his “sinful” behaviour, and says it has no business making legal decisions about it. At issue were two episodes of drunkenness, one in which Wall “verbally abused” his wife, for which he was not “sufficiently repentant,” according to court records.

I don't clearly see how two episodes of drunkenness, one in which Wall “verbally abused” his wife is not something that can be  interesting to police or social  service or some other civil service in state. Drunkenness and abusing other people is something that is punishable in most countries. In his case somebody reported him to JW elders and not to secular authority for his "sinful behavior". If JW church have right, according to Canadian Supreme Court, to make decisions how they will "punish" "sinful behavior" of member, what is that different when some other church doing same according to their "religious beliefs", because as article say: But the Supreme Court has now said once and for all that the courts ought not to interfere in religious discipline.

Well, what is this different to "religious discipline", for example, to cut hand of thief or to stone adulteress because of  their "sin" -The top court’s decision rejects that view, bluntly refers to his “sinful” behaviour, and says it has no business making legal decisions about it. 

But all "civilized world" looks with disapproval when this sort of punishment is common practice in some societies. :))

6 hours ago, César Chávez said:

As usual, you're saying God is wrong. I hate to be in your shoes! 😌

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Don’t forget that most of the problems and injustices were done by those people ...

Please CC, as usual i put in question people. People who claims that they working God's job and will on Earth.

But also, we are entitled to put some questions to God too. Clever or stupid, disturbing or suspicious, which question "God’s decisions" revealed in Bible. Revealed by writing hands of human and translated by human, with various interpretations made by human aka religious systems aka organized religions.

Well, in all that i or somebody else not questioning God solely, but also or to be said, more than God we have to question human visions and interpretations of God, too.  

For sake of argument only, i will ask god again, why He need more time for "issues" about ... "can people rule without god?", "why does god allow evil?". ... for this questions has been answered by men (and angels) long before. 

5 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Does this mean, God has never punished the unrepentant? Does this mean, the inspired word of God should not be used as an instrument of Gods stance against unrepentant and individuals that partake in worldly sin in order to keep Christ body and church clean? What is the point of keeping Christian ethics, if we are to accept being part of this world is a Christian, criteria?

Don’t forget that most of the problems and injustices were done by those people who used God’s Word to “get others in order”. Self-righteous and zealous, always ready to trow "first stone".

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)  For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death;16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

By reading Paul's words, i would conclude how all that already happened in his time. Paul under inspiration wrote about him and some other people ( he said - "we") who will "survive presence". And after that "surviving" they will be "caught away in clouds". It is free to be conclude how Jesus "presence" happened in Paul's time.

He, Paul, speaking about it as he and them (he said - "we") will participate in that going to Lord. He was "inspired" to tell this. Under "inspiration" he made prophecy and future event that is sure and that will affect "their" lives (his and people he told about as - "we"), and not about some other people lives 20 centuries later. 

And, of course, another detail we have to take in consideration. No matter is number "144 000" literal or symbolic, Christian congregation/s in 1st century for sure had more than 144 000 (anointed) followers of Jesus. 

-----------------------------

What is the meaning of this described event? This was literal and visible to physical eyes and happened before Paul's words.

And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.  At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split  and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people. - Matt 27 

8 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

So Paul said to "comfort one another" with these words that showed that no one would miss anything, because when the parousia arrives, the dead [anointed] will rise first, and then those who were still alive at the parousia would be instantly changed together at the same time. The timing would be so close that it would be as if all of them were meeting together "mid-air" to be with Christ forever from that point on. Paul was just trying to make it clear that no one would miss a thing.

All these decades in the Organization .... it has been constantly taught that the anointed began to be resurrected from 1914. And this as if they were all resurrected at the same time, and those who died after 1914 were also resurrected to life in heaven in moment of death. 

What was strange is Paul's words about "instantly change". No one in WTJWorg was never saw nothing like that from 1914 till today. Well, what really happened in 1914? Or any year before or after (Russell', Rutherford' etc. guessing)?

Because, no JW anointed was not affected by the "change", which should be "seen" on the living anointed, it can easily be concluded that we do not live in time of parousia or in time of "parousia's interpretations".

Once again, WT doctrines and interpretations are so problematic.

40 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said:

Wouldn't be the first time a jw woman got disfellowshipped for being raped.

I personally never heard about such things. But it is possible that such decisions of the JW elders also happen.

7 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

But what is the purpose of this forum? That varies in each person’s eyes. As far as the Witness organization Itself is concerned, it has no purpose at all and were it to vanish into the abyss I don’t think they would miss it.

Purpose of this Forum is unknown to me. Owners knows real meaning and reasons for existing.

But I am glad to be user and participant in various topics, and can say, "Thanks" for this Forum. 

Of course that you are right when said how this Forum can "vanish into the abyss I don’t think they would miss it." if you ask WTJWorg. In fact they would be very happy to see this happen. Because our conversation challenging WT doctrines and revealing how this religion often manipulate with people's emotions and minds. And how they are ready to deceive and to change rhetoric  when it is need. 

For example, Geoffrey Jackson, GB member aka Top Manager of Society, publicly claimed before ARC how they, GB, are not the only spokesperson for God on Earth. On other hand they teaching members how they have to obey  GB in all instructions and follow the leadership of GB, because that is only way to survive Armageddon. 

I am almost surprised that you Tom gave such bad review about this Forum and tell others that they waste their time here on this Forum.  Perhaps JWorg have some better "Forum"? I hope you would take participation there, in the same manner you doing here. :))

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

They are here to sow doubt, hate, and unbalance the weak.... and pick arguments with us to keep us from doing the more important stuff.... and get us to snap at each other.

I come here when I have excess time... and it does help me to keep sharp.... to personally think things through..... although there is no other benefit to me personally - arguing with spiritual renegades and self-righteous, clueless Pharisees that do not know much of the bible but constantly break others down to help further the goals of their father - John 8:44

* bold mine

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Consensual sex and then when you are found out you claim abuse?

Perhaps yes, perhaps no. It seems how you and elders have suspicion that she was sincere. 

Maybe elders would be do better to ask police about it before making decision that she is "harlot" or "adulteress".