Srecko Sostar

19 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You’ve got to be kidding me!

No Tom. I tried to show how our "courage" to do "right thing" depending and/or not depending on external and internal "threats". 

@TrueTomHarley

... thanks for long post. Praiseworthy and worthy to imitate, try to follow an example, every example that respects and saves lives. 

It is unfortunate that, we humans, have lost our inner feelings for right and wrong, and that/how belonging to something (religion, politics, philosophy, etc.) becomes a method by which certain good values are achieved or which lead to the opposite side, to the side of evil.

Let us not forget that many who were willing to sacrifice themselves in this way for others, perhaps, in another circumstance, are willing to do something that nullifies their great sacrifice they have made. Imagine, I'm hiding a JW brother or a non-JW person from the massacre yesterday .... and today I completely ignore (shun) on the road someone who has stopped being a JW brother for some reason. Or even more frighteningly, consciously or unconsciously, JW’s brother supports wrong instructions regarding how to deal with cases of pedophilia. And how the victims of pedophilia “die” because no one has “hidden” them from the villains and from those who have allowed evil to continue to happen.
So Tom, it should be said that JW’s have shown courage in Nazi Germany and Rwanda. But it should also be said that the JWs did not really express themselves in “peacetime” in “their own country, the homeland, which is called Spiritual Paradise” when victims of CSA call for help and only few try to help them .... and many others could not or would not hear their voice because of the great noise of those who shouted, "We are the best religion." 

6 minutes ago, Arauna said:

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

marriage celebration? When, where and how

the bride of Christ will join the groom in heaven - this takes place before Armageddon because they will assist Jesus during Armageddon. 

Will you enjoy, will you be "Invited", to be able to be "Happy", as Revelation said ?

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I would have pointed out that if we were really doing what Abraham did when he said then, that we should be questioning this judgment, just as Abraham did. Perhaps that is one of the lessons. If we truly want to be God's friend then we should be ready to "argue" with Him. We should question the numbers, as Abraham did. We should question the sense of justice, as Abraham did. Ultimately, we would never question Jehovah's judgment after the fact, but we should always be thinking and questioning what justice should look like before the fact. It is important that we try to understand Jehovah's justice as best we can.

Agree. But we have to be careful and sensitive. JHVH is much more understandable than GB. You can argue and question with JHVH, but do not dare doing that with GB :))))

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Involved in that battle will be all intelligent creatures, seen and unseen.—Rev. 11:17; Isa. 9:6, AS; 2 Cor. 4:4.

This quote from WT magazine that including "all intelligent creatures, seen and unseen" and Bible verses that i looked at have nothing to support each other. Did i missed something while reading?

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

22 hours ago, César Chávez said:

I don't recall were a witness defines the survival percentage of 99.9% when there is over 8 million witnesses and about as much interested people.

*** w58 6/1 p. 330 Why Dedicate Ourselves to God? ***
Yes, all such would foolishly ignore the instruction Book of their Maker and his “traffic laws” for living. And yet that is the very course that more than 99.9 percent of earth’s population

*** w55 11/1 p. 648 Using Wisely the Reduced Time Left ***
Time spent in trying to accumulate wealth, fame or power or in trying to perpetuate this old system of things is wasted, and that is what more than 99.9 per cent of this earth’s population are doing.

Of course, we don't know. CC has pointed out before that he thinks most Witnesses are not true Witnesses, with true faith. He has also made statements that question faith and loyalty of elders and ministerial servants. So perhaps the percentage of actual survivors is much lower than .1 percent from CC's perspective.

Excellent!  

On 7/21/2020 at 5:25 PM, Anna said:

Insight Volume 2 p. 169-170: This Kingdom is of greater proportions and bigger dimensions than “the kingdom of the Son of his love,” spoken of at Colossians 1:13. “

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

On the issue of when Jesus sat down in his Kingdom, this also seems pretty obvious from the scriptures. Jesus is called "king of kings" in the first century. Immediately after his resurrection, Jesus said that "ALL authority" had bee given to him in heaven and on earth.

(Matthew 28:18) . . .“All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

Trying to minimize this kingdom authority in the first century appears to take away from the scriptures. In the scriptures, Jesus is already "crowned" in the first century.

20 minutes ago, Arauna said:

31 minutes ago, Witness said:

It helps to understand the meaning of Sheol, Hades, the abyss, the “pit”; which are all indicating the realm of spiritual darkness – the realm of “not perceiving”. 

you clump all these concepts together as if they are one concept. they are not - so I do not agree with you.

:)))) Bible is massive and long context.

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

 And he tells me, “Write: Happy are those invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.”

Are you or some other JW's invited to the evening meal, marriage celebration? When, where and how? Literally or symbolically? How looks interpretation/s? And what Bible verses supports this sort of interpretations?

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Not according to WT doctrine of a battle to ensue 1,000 years into the “paradise”.  No matter how much one loves God now, they will have another event of destruction to face.  What a lie. 

I don’t know how a JW can say that through obedience and baptism into the organization, salvation can be obtained, and “everlasting life” will be received, through that obedience to its direction…when it is the same organization that also tells you Satan will be “let loose” from the abyss one thousand years into the period of “everlasting life”.   If this WAS truth, NO JW should teach another person that they can receive everlasting life through the organization, because your prospects of surviving Satan’s DECEITFUL tactics are rather slim. (Rev 20:7-10; 1 Pet 5:8)  Do you truly believe you are guaranteed everlasting life by “sticking close” to the organization?

 

What is everlasting life? 

“The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.”  1 John 2:17

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”  John 3:16

Excellent point!

According to WTJWorg theology, people would need to prove their faithfulness twice. As imperfect humans and than again as perfect humans ?? Does God need this "proof of fidelity and obeying" or Organization? 

In fact, according to quote you put from WT magazine, Organization aka New York Headquarter (who will be in New World as Main Administration of Jesus Kingdom, perhaps this new facilities was built to survive Armageddon :))))  need constant attestation from members now and in New System.  

Man maid religion, for sure.

religion = a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

Definition: A form of worship. It includes a system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices; these may be personal, or they may be advocated by an organization. Usually religion involves belief in God or in a number of gods; or it treats humans, objects, desires, or forces as objects of worship. Much religion is based on human study of nature; there is also revealed religion. There is true religion and false. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989261

Perhaps, after all, "spiritual food" from "JHVH table" is not free and available "for all people". 

WTJWorg is Company. Everything has to be paid for there. Either with voluntary contributions and work or through lawsuits. And "free speech issue" is something reserved only for WT lawyers to defend on courts. :))

Imagine Jesus which would not allow others to quote, cited him without his permission. Can you? Should you?

And GB+Helpers (with WT lawyers) should be role models to others (JW members first) to imitate their faith and works ... in suing other people because they replay (copy-paste) so-called  "Jesus's teaching" ??  :))

25 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“Is it only Jehovah’s Witnesses who will be saved?” someone asked my daughter, a need-greater. “Well—I’m not Jesus, and I don’t know,” she replied.

This is witty answer. I believe how more JW's try answer this way, because of need to give answer that is more acceptable for non-JW people. In fact, i think 70%-80% of JW's thinks how only JW will be saved.   

25 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

” After Armageddon, (let us assume that I find myself on the other side of it)

Oh Man, you need more faith :))

25 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The issue is do people prefer government by God or government by men.

People prefer government that not gives promises only :))

25 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The GB would be negligent to not continually stress the place of safety and call attention to verses that indicate you’d better be there. They would be negligent to not urge those there to prioritize their lives so as to join Christ in saying “Come,” They have not been negligent. Imitate them, says 2 Thess 3:7-9. Imitate their faith, says Heb 13:17, a faith that has manifested itself as deeds, because faith without works is dead.

Faith without works is dead .... as same as works with faith can be rejected. Bible speaking about it too. 

6 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Even in peacetime. My town did a heavy spray for mosquitoes a couple years ago, and estimated that hundreds of thousands of mosquitoes died. We probably won't find out for 15 years how it affected humans.

I am signing a lot, many petitions on Lady Freethinker page. Humans are brutal. Disgustingly brutal!! 

https://ladyfreethinker.org/sign-justice-for-kitten-stolen-from-porch-and-drenched-in-poisonous-bug-spray/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Man’s disobedience in Eden did not bring death to animals—they had been living and dying and many forms becoming extinct for thousands of years before man’s creation. The new world will eliminate the effects of Adam’s disobedience, but that does not concern animal death.

Out of detail did animals eat each other before Adam and Eve creation, or will they do it again in New World and after, it seems how this World living in two parallel reality. People got imperfection and living "imperfect life in imperfect World, after "sin". But animal continued to live as "perfect creatures" in own spiritual and literal "paradise" until now, but in dangerous from human.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Jehovah is only a god of life..... He never planned for any to die.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Yes, adam knew what is was to return to dust because animals did die.  They were not created to live forever.

------------------------------------------------------

Next issue:

39 minutes ago, Arauna said:

The test at end of 1000 years will truly test human's loyalty as perfect individuals

As i mentioned before, about testing, we have interesting Bible report. About testing human. One test was in Garden with Tree, Adam and Eve. Next testing, according to WTJWorg is at the end of Jesus Kingdom. 

Here we have 2 Divine Testing and only humans are included. Nothing about "spiritual beings". But as Bible said rebellion started with angels, not human. Well, is "perfection" of human Adam and Eve, and "perfection" of people at the end of 1000 years "smaller" than "perfection" of angels which have never been tested and never will, because Bible said nothing about it?   

7 hours ago, Anna said:

One question I do have though. If death will be "destroyed" i.e. hurled into the lake of fire, does that mean death will no longer exist? 

As JWI said, we can see how there are several causes of death that we (humans) experienced. Perhaps those sort of "deaths" will be "destroyed". 

14 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Satan is the originator (father) of death.

I am not aware of such Bible verses. Perhaps "father of lie" and "murderer"?

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Srecko, on your point of death never existing. I would think from the creation of animal life, that death existed. Animals dying naturally or being killed by other animals. Otherwise the earth would have become overpopulated with animals. And i think later Adam and Eve would have seen animal death so as to know what death was.

Universe is full of moments when "things" come to existence and after some time stop to exist. Stars are "dying" too. 

I don't know exactly what author of WT article meant when he wrote  death has never existed in heaven because if God created Universe as we know it today, death was always and is today and will be part of Creation and Universe, part of life. We can say how ... death was created, too. Death came into existence when "things" were created, from the moment they came into being.

On 7/14/2020 at 5:37 AM, Witness said:

Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."  John 14:23

Apologize for late reaction.

My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

I found this interesting. Many Christian religions, including JW teaching (about 144000) how people will go to heaven and how other Bible verses (e.g. John 14:2,3; Philip 3:14; ) "prove" that idea. 

But in same chapter John wrote Jesus quote about different idea. Father and Jesus will come to them (on Earth) and make their home with them (on Earth).

-----------------------------------------------------------

While searching for Bible verses i found another intriguing claim on JWorg web:

The Bible teaches that under the rule of God’s Kingdom, “death will be no more.” (Revelation 21:3, 4) This promise must apply to the earth, since death has never existed in heaven. - https://www.jw.org/hr/biblijska-ucenja/pitanja/tko-ide-na-nebo/

Here we have idea that presents how: since death has never existed in heaven. On what arguments author is able to made such claim? What Bible text speaking for or against this claim?

With this way established thesis, author made another conclusion and claim: This promise must apply to the earth, ...

Well, i found interesting how "death" is moving from one place to another. According to WTJWorg doctrine, Before Adam and Eve death never existed no where in Universe. In time of Adam and Eve, idea of death came to be possible reality (but only for earthly people on Earth) because of "fruit issue". Devil and his demons were making rebellion against God before "fruit tree issue" and before Adam and Eve rebellion, but there is no Bible text that speaking how God made any warning to angels as "free will individuals" (same as human on Earth) that they will be sentenced to death if they try to go against God's will, too. Because there is no Bible text about such warning, WTJWorg author of articles came to conclusion how  death has never existed in heaven.

But it seems how things will be different and death will be reality for angels and "heaven". Because somehow God and Jesus will "kill/destroy" devil and his demons. And even more, quote in WTJWorg publication call for Revelation book: The Bible teaches that under the rule of God’s Kingdom, “death will be no more.”

Well, it seems, we shall have opposite situation in the future. "Death" will be removed from Earth to Heaven, on place where death has never existed. Sad days are expected for "Heaven". 

Another thing is also interesting: If God found appropriate to put test on first human with "fruit tree issue", is it possible that there is (or is not) a similar test for heavenly angels who came to existence by a same sort of creative act. Free will is free will, same for spirit and for flesh. Perfect or imperfect, you as free will individual can create problems. Bible reports said so.

If God decided to put "fruit tree issue" test on human only and nothing like that for angels, than some question coming. 

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

You are denying all the scriptures in the bible which refers to this.  So you are deliberately obtuse.  you are saying God is making an abnormal rule......You talk like an atheist. Why should I take you seriously when you do not take the bible seriously.  You say you accept the bible …… but only the parts you like.

Please, if i omitted to put Bible verse/s to bake my opinion, would you be so kind to put: 

Bible verse/s that clearly said

1) how you have to shun dfd family member who don't living under same roof with faithful family members?

and Bible verse that clearly said

2) how you can talk with dfd family member who living under same roof with faithful family members?

If you would not be able to provide such scriptures than i will politely ask you to not make claim how i am person who denying scriptures (in fact scriptures that not exist in reality). Only existing thing is WTJWorg extended interpretations of Bible verses.

PS Your and WTJWorg extended interpretations are so similar with examples of Jew who want to be very strict and righteous about Law which forbade working on Sabbath. And They made explanations with long list of what work is and what work is not. :)))

2 hours ago, Anna said:

I think this has been discussed somewhere before, that in fact Gnam's claim was correct, that is, in the context of a family member living at home, which would naturally apply to husband and wife, and any children that were currently a part of the household. But, the claim was deceptive because it did not clarify this, and allowed for the assumption that the topic included ANY family member living inside or outside the home, in other words in a broad sense, which is how most people view "family". 

Of course !! Every "normal worldly human" have no specific reason to understand and to accept JW abnormal rule that makes separation and difference about family member who living in house, out house, in a basement or on first floor, near house or on other planet. Family member is family member, alive or dead, JW or non-JW or ex-JW.

The National Secular Society has urged Britain's charity regulators to ensure the restructuring of Jehovah's Witnesses (JW) charities does not obstruct victims of child abuse from claiming compensation.

The NSS has raised the issue with the Charity Commission for England and Wales and the Scottish charity regulator, OSCR, after a report on BBC Radio 4's Sunday programme this week.

The programme reported that the church is selling off substantial amounts of property and land that it owns. As part of a significant restructuring of the organisation, each congregation is being asked to dissolve its charitable status and merge – along with its assets – with the Kingdom Hall Trust.

The trust is a registered charity whose aims include being a "custodian trustee holding title to freehold and leasehold properties acquired as places of worship".

The assets mentioned on the Sunday programme included kingdom halls, which are used for worship and meetings.

An abuse survivor and lawyers who spoke to the programme expressed concern that such a restructuring could leave JW charities unable to pay potential liabilities.

A number of JW churches worldwide have been subject to investigations regarding their handling of sexual abuse allegations in recent years. In Australia, JW organisations have consolidated and sold properties worth millions of pounds amid a series of legal claims and a damning report from a royal commission.

NSS comment

NSS chief executive Stephen Evans said: "It is clearly not in the public interest for charities to be permitted to restructure in ways that may impede victims and survivors of abuse within these communities from claiming compensation.

"We therefore urge the Charity Commission to use all available powers to ensure that the restructuring of JW charities does not impede abuse victims' and survivors' ability to obtain settlements."

Jehovah's Witnesses and abuse in Britain

JW communities' handling of abuse allegations will come under increased scrutiny next month, when the Independent Inquiry on Child Sexual Abuse is due to conduct hearings on the issue.

In 2018 scores of alleged victims accused the JWs of a culture of cover-up of child sexual abuse. Earlier this year at least 20 former JWs launched legal action over abuse which they say they suffered.

In 2017 the Charity Commission severely criticised the New Moston Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses in Manchester over its handling of allegations of abuse.

And in 2016 the Supreme Court ruled that the Watch Tower and Bible Tract Society of Great Britain, which oversees JW congregations, couldn't prevent the commission from conducting an inquiry over its handling of abuse allegations.

This week's episode of the Sunday programme is available on the BBC website; listen from 5:20 to 21:45 for the relevant section.

part of text:

Collaboration between Church and state

The importance of collaboration between the Church and state is a fourth aspect covered in the Vademecum. It brings up, for example, that “even in cases where there is no explicit legal obligation to do so, the ecclesiastical authorities should make a report to the competent civil authorities if this is considered necessary to protect the person involved or other minors from the danger of further criminal acts.” In addition, it reiterates that “the investigation should be carried out with respect for the civil laws of each state”. - https://www.vaticannews.va/en/vatican-city/news/2020-07/vademecum-procedures-cases-sexual-abuse-minors-clergy.html

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

So your example is not proof of injustice and 'privilege' but proof of a sons cowardice to show integrity to snitch on buddies, which is as destructive as self-righteousness.

If we put this observation and conclusion on "next level", it is similar how elders showing "cowardice" and not reporting CSA to the ONLY AUTHORITY that is in charge to deal with CRIMES according to Romans 13 ... to the "secular authorities".

Well obviously , WTJWorg have problem in detecting what is "sin" and what is "crime".

17 minutes ago, Witness said:

Is the GB a composite "false prophet"?  Yep, and they make silly excuses for misleading millions with false predictions. 

I think how GB silly excuses going in this way: "we are rowing", "we are not inspired", we can err", "sometimes brothers and sisters who reading publications are overzealous, "apostles had wrong expectations so sometimes JW's have had wrong expectations", etc. 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

But the actual word "shun" disappeared from the website in 2019 (so far).

I think i would "agree" with GB who said how internet (in fact :)) JWorg official site and JW library), is very dangerous place for true Christians aka JW members. WTJWorg IT experts can remove "spiritual food" from your "table" (a well-laden table of nourishing spiritual food served at the right time.) which is coming "from JHVH through Jesus through GB" and make it to disappear. That it looks as if something has never even been spiritual food  available for hungry and thirsty individuals who are "poor in spirit" as Bible said. When "this generation" (people who have good memory and know what was before and what was after) pass, not one of JW member in the future will never know nothing about this and other "clarifications".  

Amazing thing, internet! A supreme means of deceiving, cheating the people. 

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

And these words do NOT  exist in our vocabulary. We use a different word which indicates that the person can still associate but without the privileges they had before.. So what part of this is hypocritical? The fact that you do not like that people do not have ALL the priviledged they had before?

Here you remind me of the parent who does not put the child in time-out as he said he would.  He still loves the child but the child needs consequences for actions taken....... 

I really don't get why you need to involve other people's, mine in this matter, emotions. I am speaking with you and other people here, not because i like you or not like you. We discuss, at the moment, about how WT lawyer represent your organization on what he use to "prove" your activity and practice. 

Your publications, edited, printed, published by WTJWorg and scattered with help of members and internet shows (i put some of them in previous comment) without any doubt that words "shun" and "shunning" are part of "clear language" in JW "spiritual paradise". Why you have need to contradict and deny it ?? It’s easier to admit and then we’ll start a new topic.   

7 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Now, the mix you point out is between "spiritual needs" and "personal life". .........Therefore, you need to justify your intent here.

WT Lawyer David Gnam explicit claim and argument in court is how the words “shun and shunning” do not exist in the vocabulary and practice of the JW church.

He mixing spiritual and personal needs/life, but that is not problem, because both is not separate. Must exist together . And i do not have to "justify" nothing about it because of same reasons.  

Siting near other persons and singing together with other persons (David Gnam statement) and much more than this two, belongs to that same category you named - "spiritual and personal". Why you need me to make "explanation" or "justification" on this?? I really don't understand.

What i "don't understand"  is, why lawyer David Gnam Exposé  on Court about JW religious beliefs and practice is opposite of what JW doing !!

7 hours ago, César Chávez said:

How would that be a contradiction of scripture. Explain?

As I mentioned before, in comment to Arauna, my primary response is about WT Lawyer and his false presentation of reality about dfd and shunning ! If you have something about it we can continue with conversation. Have no interest, temporary, arguing about this JW religious ideology and doctrine. Thanks!