Srecko Sostar

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Yet, destroying extraneous notes is (and often should be) common practice in organizations of all types, so that the findings are highlighted, not the messy process.

If "messy" process lead to "right" findings that would be sort of miracle. A chaotic sequence of events consequently produces harmony.  :)) Sometimes it could be possible, but each and every time?

The destruction of the notes must be supervised and there must be exact instructions as to what is being destroyed and after how long time. Some notes, especially those explaining why and how the members of the legal (judicial) committee came to extremely important findings and conclusions should have a very long lifespan in some cases forever (or as long as the parties involved are alive). Especially when it comes to cases that are legally punishable.

Elders received, as i can conclude from general understanding, directive from Bethel, Legal Department or some other WT Deportment, you would know better, to destroy some sort of notes about this and that subject. But all those elders, they do not know what the regulations and procedures are when extracting and destroying archival and registry material. I am very sure they making big mistakes in this matter.   

45 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The case with Gnam above is not nearly as serious as others, even compared to examples of other Watchtower lawyers in the U.S. But I don't condone such dishonesty, even in small amounts. In my opinion Mr. David Gnam is dishonest here, and therefore a wrongdoer, and very likely an unrepentant wrongdoer. I don't think he should be disbarred, but he should not be used by the Watchtower Society in any way unless he is ready to be honest.

I haven't any information, knowledge or assumption are dishonesty of WT lawyers known to those who arrange their services before Court process. But, WTJWorg people, individuals who hired lawyers, they are certainly well acquainted with the main elements that their lawyer will use as a defense. Because of this premonition, the responsible people in the WT who deal with legal matters have a great responsibility. 

But because of the frequent practice of WT lawyers to deceive, present half-truths and obscure reality, I think that such JW individuals who hire lawyers (JW lawyers and non-JW lawyers) belong to the same described group from your comment..... And all that is possible with donated money, money that comes from various JW members, from old/young and not wealthy, from children. How sad. How very sad!

5 minutes ago, Arauna said:

You are the one who mentioned that people cannot drink a beer together etc. It is so harsh... well this is why I used the example of a child being put in time-out.  If you are in time-out... take the discipline of Jehovah and start to serve him again. Do not let your pride get the better of you.

Thanks for your good intentions about me, but i ask, kindly request you again, to read my "questionable" comments, more carefully.  

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

YOUR words are so twisted  - no logic. You do not see anything wrong with your reasoning?  

You are like a person who tells a child NOT to do something because it is bad....it will hurt his brother and himself......you will put them in time-out... for punishment. Then when the child deliberately does it …… you put him in time-out and he screams as if you are murdering him..... He plays the victim and gets attention by playing the victim.  He is so stubborn he does not calm down and think about what he did...…...so you feel ashamed for the discipline and take him out of time-out …..without the child ever learning that  there are consequences to his dangerous behavior and disobedience. (I have seen kids like this many times in my life - uncontrollable, especially in shops - because they have never had proper consequences for bad behavior). Then when these children turn out to be irresponsible as adults ….. because they are adults now they now become innocent? They have rights to break gods laws?  or do they need Jehovah's discipline if they want to serve him.... Or does Jehovah not discipline those he loves? 

Hebrews 12: “My son, do not belittle the discipline from Jehovah, nor give up when you are corrected by him; ⁶  for those whom Jehovah loves he disciplines, in fact, scourges everyone whom he receives as a son.”  ⁷  You need to endure as part of your discipline.God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?" 

Most JWs know there is consequences to a pattern of dangerous spiritual behavior.  They KNOW the consequences but are not prepared to take the time-out.  To humbly attend meetings will get them back on a path to reinstatement but NO their sensitive egos and rights are more important that serving Jehovah. They howl and scream like a stubborn child and publicly call the JWs and GB cruel etc.   Their stubbornness does not bring them favor with Jehovah or teach them respect or obedience to Jehovah's laws.  They apply the laws of Jehovah in the way their own DESIRES dictate.... then they howl in public how bad JWs are.... when we are the ones strictly adhering to the dictates of the very one (Jehovah) they claim to serve.

 

Dear Arauna, i didn't comment this aspect of WT policies about why dfd is part of JW faith. And i wouldn't.

I simply and clearly put on daylight what and how WT Lawyer doing in Court in his/their attempt to defend Image of religious "mountain-like organization", before secular authorities and before  other "sister's religious" organizations, representatives who attended court process.                

I think that your comment have to be a addressed to Mr. David Gnam !  

8 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t use the word “shun” or “shunning”. 

Is this "twisting or lying" ?? 

Watch the video Loyally Uphold Jehovah’s Judgments—Shun Unrepentant Wrongdoers, and then answer the following questions: - https://www.jw.org/en/library/jw-meeting-workbook/september-2017-mwb/meeting-schedule-sept18-24/loyal-when-relative-disfellowshipped/

Is strict avoidance really necessary? Yes, for several reasons. - https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/gods-love/disfellowshipped-person/

Synonyms for avoidance

Synonyms: cop-out, dodging, ducking, eluding, elusion, escape, eschewal, eschewing, evasion, out, shaking, shunning - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/avoidance

You may want to know the outcome of the court case involving a woman who was upset because former acquaintances would not converse with her after she chose to reject the faith, disassociating herself from the congregation.

¹⁷ Before the case went to trial, a federal district court summarily granted judgment against her. That judgment was based on the concept that courts do not get involved in church disciplinary matters. She then appealed. The unanimous judgment of the federal court of appeals* was based on broader grounds of First Amendment (of the U.S. Constitution) rights: “Because the practice of shunning is a part of the faith of the Jehovah’s Witness, we find that the ‘free exercise’ provision of the United States Constitution . . . precludes [her] from prevailing. The defendants have a constitutionally protected privilege to engage in the practice of shunning. Accordingly, we affirm” the earlier judgment of the district court.

¹⁸ The court opinion continued: “Shunning is a practice engaged in by Jehovah’s Witnesses pursuant to their interpretation of canonical text, ... - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1988287#h=51

Please, dear JW defenders, Do you really need to defend WT lawyer Mr David Gnam twisting, lying on Court?

9 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Of course, I understand this to be your personal opinion. An opinion gathered by a wrong perspective and attitude toward an organization you now feel compelled to discredit. We can all do that as a matter of opinion. However, scripture does point out how dangerous and destructive those personal points of view can be to God himself.

WT Lawyer Mr. David Gnam: 

 “Disfellowship” literally means “no further spiritual fellowship” with the individual. […] The nature of the relationship, then, of a disfellowshipped person is not completely shunned. The disfellowshipped person is able to come into the congregation meetings, they’re able to attend in the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah’s Witnesses, they’re able to sit wherever they like, they can sing the spiritual songs with the congregation.

Well, this is full of contradiction or, as you would say, this is so "twisted". If dfd person comes to KH, sit there and sing with JW who are not dfd, how this is not "spiritual fellowship"? They siting and singing together "spiritual songs".

And now, one more "twisted reality is this". If such dfd individual and his JW brothers want to go to drink glass of beer after "siting and singing together in KH" would that be OK according to WT Lawyer, according to WT publications, according to you?? Because if they go in pub and siting and drinking beer together that is not against genuine WT Lawyer explanation -  “Disfellowship” literally means “no further spiritual fellowship” with the individual.  Because if they drink a beer or coffee together, what "spiritual component" existing in that?? Perhaps that would be "social component"? But as we all know very well "socializing with dfd or non-JW person" outside of JW "spiritual activity" (that is preaching and Bible study, meetings in KH), that would be FORBIDDEN, sinful BEHAVIOR in JW church,  according to WT publications and according JW elders interpretations.

Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t use the word “shun” or “shunning”. 

Is this "twisting or lying" ?? 

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

Another error I just noticed is the "twisting of Bro Jackson's" words to the ARC.

Who did it? Me? Where please? I thing how i didn't mention GJ in this topic. 

And please, i never twisting other people words. If i comment their quotes that is not "twisting" :))

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

How can one be so obtuse as Srecko?

Don't worry, Tom. I know my very short and very simple comment hurts, but the pain will pass.  

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Sometimes all you have to do with a statement like that from the Glock is to show a little flexibility.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

"But we are acting against Jehovah’s purpose if we do not obey the faithful and discreet slave or if we choose to obey only what we think is important. And if we act against Jehovah’s purpose, we cannot be his friends. In the next article, we will talk about some situations that give us the opportunity to show if we are obedient. The decisions we make in these situations will show if we have entered into God’s rest."  WT 11/7/15 p. 21

FLEXIBILITY vs OBEY

:)))

17 minutes ago, Witness said:

JWs speak of Christ, but attribute salvation to an organization.

Yes, i also see this as problem. No religious organization, in this case a Christian, can provide complete and accurate knowledge and explanations of biblical events or of Jesus. When a believer realizes that his or her affiliation with a particular church does not provide “salvation,” it should help him or her build a “spiritual” rather than a “literal” faith.

In fact, WTJWorg also argues that baptism alone (baptism as a JW member) does not ensure the survival of Armageddon or the resurrection. Therefore, WTJWorg is a source of contradiction, not only in this topic; salvation is possible only in a JW organization, but also in many other doctrines.
Once more. All changes in the teachings and interpretations of the biblical text, as well as interpretations of dogmas in the teachings of the JW organization, then "clarifications" and "new light", can in no way be a guarantee to JW believers that their "salvation" is possible only in this "organization".

Reassure yourself that "my organization" has the highest number of correct teachings than any other organization, it can not be guarantee for "salvation". Did Jesus say anywhere that one's affiliation with a particular church would be crucial in separating "sheep from goats" in Judgement Day?.

10 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Google are telling me this forum is 'Not Secure' and keep giving my red triangle warnings.

Me too. Can somebody explain why?

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

The last I looked, the Watchtower GB do not purposely oppose Gods will or commands.

It seems, sounds good ... from your perspective. And it is reflection of your "faith" and "trust" in God and GB. I can't and don't want join you in such evaluation of GB work. I want to believe in human sincerity and from that point i am ready to believe how many JW people also not purposely oppose God's will. Nevertheless, their or mine "beliefs" does not nullify reality how people, generally, oppose God's will, purposely or unintentionally. Result of both "motives" is/are ........ bad  consequences. With that consequences are; years or decades of wrong, err doctrines, teachings, directives, deeds, words and emotions. And all that is, religiously said, false worship. Well, purposely or not, false worship IS false worship. And WT printed tons of magazines, books and public talks about it, not showing any "mercy" to those other who not worshiping God in "proper" aka JW way of worship. WT publication criticized and judged not only other religion's doctrines but also behavior of their's members.

When WT Management  in past or today, aka GB+Helpers, speaking how this or that doctrine and interpretation and instruction is "God's thought" or "Jesus's thought" or "biblically grounded" and after they denied it and replaced with "new divine thoughts", what is that? Opposing God? Opposing sound mind? Fooling God? Opposing XY, etc? 

Dr Furuli will need to live with their own past and with their own future. And find something to stay "alive".

Thanks for respond and thoughts.  

27 minutes ago, Anna said:

When people no longer want to live as Jehovah's Witnesses, for whatever reason, and an opportunity presents itself where they feel justified in leaving, then they will eagerly grab that opportunity. Very often this has nothing to do with any actual "truth" or "facts" but everything to do with that person's attitude and desire to do what they want. With the internet, these opportunities present themselves much more frequently and readily than in the past. There have always been opposers, but now they are finding more of a voice than they ever had before....

This is partially correct, but not for all who left JW church. In videos from ex-JW i heard some of them complaining how they were not been able to celebrate Christmas or birthdays. I don’t go into the theological justification of their demands, but I don’t think it’s something that should be crucial to leaving or staying in the organization.

There are so many other “details, bigger and smaller that should decide someone’s departure. Many things have been discussed at this Forum and, you will agree with me, they go far beyond, outweigh the issue of celebrating birthdays. It is possible that in some people there may be some individual trigger to change the state of feelings about the organization. But that moment when that happens is just a continuation of a process that has been in that individual’s subconscious and consciousness for a long/longer time. It doesn’t happen “overnight”, that decision is not impulsive. 

I observed the children of one mother in the former congregation. Teenagers. As they grew older and reached adulthood, their attitude toward belonging to the JW changed. The eldest sister left JW immediately after coming of age. The younger sisters soon after one by one also left the organization. I guess, I'm actually sure, that they didn't have problems with purely theological dilemmas or what the leadership of the organization was like, but with personal freedoms and pressures from mothers and elders (they were forbidden to associate with their father who was excluded many years ago and I think it was trigger for their decisions).

This example, about issue of (MUST) shunning own dfd father was too much for them. And their reaction was completely  natural and normal. WT JWorg and lawyer in video presented showed double face, showed hypocrisy. And want to look good in front of "secular", "worldly" people. They want to hold Image of Organization. And that "detail" is also "trigger" for some JW people to "come out of her" aka organization.

10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Wait till you see what’s coming your way soon. 

If he was committing perjury, he would be disbarred. Wait till you see if that happens before you crow. He just said something you did not like, which is not the same as “committing perjury.”

Mr Tom, the Author of two books, did you watch this short video? Do you read WT publication?

If your answer is yes, than please repent for your bad comment. :)) 

9 hours ago, Anna said:

10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I thought the point I was making is that he could have chosen a different word and thus prevent this thread from coming into existence. Isn’t that your point as well?

Certainly. But now I do wonder why Br. Glock said what he said. Is there a feeling that the GB's trust worthiness is under fire and is it gaining some success?

Br. Glock can't prevent nor fix damage GB + Helpers and WT Lawyers doing for very long time. 

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

15 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

we have to follow governmental direction. And what  is the point of your illustration?

For your information - the GB closed our meetings BEFORE government regulation. So GB had caution and respect for life and most assuredly prayed to Jehovah for direction.  

Dear Arauna, you misquoted, used my quote out of context. You didn't QUOTE my FULL SENTENCE. It would be better to quote whole sentence or paragraph. :)) Thanks in advance!

In general context, we have to follow governmental direction based on Romans 13 regulation or principle or command if you wish.

In critical thinking context, we have to interrogate, to question and to check many things that comes from "higher instance", secular or religious, because of  historically proven reasons.

Well, to go back on your comment, again. It is out of question, or it is not issue, did GB made good/bad decision about Covid 19, before or after government regulation. After all, GB did, i guess, collected health and medicine information from secular sources aka science (virologists, experts in the field of public health, institutions dealing with the study of infections etc) In this context, GB made decisions not on "spiritual" facts or possibilities revealed in Bible, but based on existing secular knowledge about Covid 19. When medical experts found more about disease, GB will also know more. NOT vice versa. Croatian crisis headquarters made better decisions at first, than many other governments and they made it BEFORE many others. Well, what that have to prove? Who has decided before, to close all public meetings ? GB or Croatian crisis headquarter ? :))

7 hours ago, César Chávez said:

So what you are saying, the Apostles had no authority to invoke the word of God, even though Jesus commissioned them to do just that? When Moses struck the rock, was Moses alone or was he in front of the people. Maybe you can clarify your position. 

Now, didn't Jesus separate church and state? What do you suppose Jesus was talking about when he mentioned "Give Caesar what is Caesars" Was Caesar a Sanhedrin or a man of state? Now think about Hebrews  13:17. What err do you see when someone from the ORG questions a leaders actions that has no basis for it, just outside influence and speculation. Does that not mean, that person is putting themselves in Moses chair? 

Why would that be presumptive? Their actions are signaling to others, they have the right to complain just like Furuli did. Was he correct to do that? NO! Since God's Holy Spirit would not have been with such a divisive person. 

People can "invoke" whatever they want in "proving" their position on something. A reference to a “higher instance” does not mean that the higher instance approves a “lower instance” on every or all doctrine, instruction, directive and policy. That is what i saying.

7 minutes ago, Anna said:

 I don't think science has anything to do with Br. Glock's use of the word "proof'

Perhaps br. Glock is "Bible scholar", a person who has studied a subject for a long time and knows a lot about it, an intelligent and well-educated person who knows a particular subject very well.

In that context he should be aware of using particular words and their meanings, in/for his talk .

10 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

3 hours ago, Anna said:

But my point was that just because someone does something right, is it proof of Jehovah's backing? And what if we do something that turns out to be wrong advice, as the GB has admitted (because they are fallible and can err) does that mean this is proof they do not have Jehovah's backing? I think it was just a really bad choice of words

Then it simply means, people that err with this standard of assumption has not fully understood the GB and the actions of the apostles. Agreeing with former members would not be, good advice or a good observation. Those that do so are asking for perfection of others, when those should start with themselves first.

I think that main problem all religion have, and JW too, is in this: People who lead a religion invoke God’s authority for every word they utter in front of people. GB is among the same class. When GB stops claiming that both, correct and false doctrines and instructions came from God, then they may be closer to God and  "truth".

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The reason that the GB can say ‘follow the direction of secular authority’ and still have that count as spiritual guidance is that (with some exaggeration) JWs can do it, and non-believers cannot.

School Principal in my work place also said to all employee stuff, we have to follow governmental direction. And what  is the point of your illustration?

I can easily, just for you, make connection between "direction of secular authority" and "spiritual guidance" WITHOUT any sort of religious organization and their leaders, in this case GB.

Please go to Romans chapter 13, and you will be able to understand what ties exists between God and "secular authority". God is Spirit and he put "servant with sword" to be HIS servant. I think that is some "spiritual" connections in question, that exists between them. God calls secular authorities as His servant. GB said how they are also God's "servant". 

According to Bible text God have servants all over the Earth. And some are atheists, some are religious, some are agnostics ..., What sort of ties people can have with God, but "spiritual" ? GB are not in some "privileged" position as mere "servants" in comparison to other God's "servants". Because they all are just "servants", and if God want to give his spirit, sorry, guidance, to some other "servants", who are GB to contradict God’s will ??!!

2 hours ago, Anna said:

I completely agree with you. Just today I read this quote: "Basically, we're seeing what happened in New York back in March, except it's happening in multiple metropolitan areas of the country," said Dr. Leana Wen, an emergency physician and public health professor at George Washington University. And we don't have the political will and the public willingness to impose the shutdowns as we did back in March." 

As i understand some comments from few of you, you say how GB made and making Independent decisions on Covid 19 and directs how JW members will behave in their spiritual activity, no matter what secular authorities say. If world leaders don't have the political will and the public willingness to impose the shutdowns as we did back in March, do you suggest or give idea how JW will stay in "lock-down" ie  not have public meetings, conventions, door to door or street service etc? Will GB not join "relaxed measures"? Or do you think how they think that is safer for members to "stay at home"?  

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Just as a side point;  I thought the talk had an irrelevant title, "do not lie" yet it had nothing to do with counsel about how we should avoid lying to oneanother but everything to do with how others lie, and how we should avoid them....

As i understand title of his speech was, "Protect yourself from lies". In JW world, lies are, exists only outside "spiritual borders". Well JW members are safe, they just need not to open TV or surfing web, and all "truths" will stay safe and sound. :))

51 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Here is a statement from Harry Cheadle, in NewRepublic.com: “The current moment [of responding to Covid 19] is demonstrating just how far away we are from being able to come together to solve a planetary crisis. The pandemic is a test, and we’re failing it.”

Again:  As described previously in the Newsroom section of jw.org, the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses was monitoring the situation and providing direction to all congregations in harmony with the recommendations from authorities.- https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=covid+19

This means, if world leaders failed in "planetary crisis", than GB failed with them too. :)) Nothing about motives. GB made simple copy paste of information about pandemic from secular sources and with or without some own colors forward instructions. 

59 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Witnesses have the ability to yield. They don’t insist on their own way. They do not have to “question authority” on every piddly little thing. They trust leadership.

Yes, GB leaders put in question ARC and Australian Government call for cooperation only. Or Courts in US by refusing product documents. Or victims of CSA. Or, own past doctrines they put in question too. Many other things they do not put in question.

JW members, they not put in question how trustful GB are, and they not put donation money in question, selling KH is not reason to question ..., 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I saw that Srecko

So many Sreckos in a single comment from you. Woo factor at work? :))

1 hour ago, Anna said:

So it's no so much that God is giving separate info to GB, anyone has access to the Bible, the same info, but it's more like the GB are paying attention to it and applying it, and urging us to do the same because many in the world are not.

As described previously in the Newsroom section of jw.org, the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses was monitoring the situation and providing direction to all congregations in harmony with the recommendations from authorities.- https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=covid+19

Source of knowledge and direction is in "worldly" institutions, wisdom and common sense, and it is funny to put this on "religious and spiritual level" as GB Helper was done by conclusion: .... is just another proof that Jehovah is with the Governing Body."

That GB Helper, for example, said: "GB recommended to all brothers and sister; Drink Aloe Vera 10 times a day and you will be cured and will not be ill from Covid 19 because we and HS found that is best for all of us.", .... that would be another proof who is with GB. According to w13 11/15 20, GB instructions have to be "unique" and "may not appear practical from a human standpoint".  :)) and that would give "proof" to JW's how JHVH "backing" GB in their decisions.

:))) little fun and irony 

38 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Change ‘proof’ to ‘another indication’ and the whole problem goes away.

39 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

As a result of the GB’s direction, we are all skewed to be COVID 19-cautious.

39 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

3-fold advice cord of 1) love of neighbor, 2) obey secular authorities, and 3) don’t be casual about this virus

No.1 and No.2 originated from Bible, and not from GB. No.3 is general statement, nothing unique.   

40 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I don’t know how serious the virus is in the greater scheme of things,

Agree!

41 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It may just be that we are soon to experience another application of ‘Go, my people, enter your inner rooms,

Application was already done at world scale and was instruction made not from God, Bible or GB, but from "secular authorities". They told people to stay at home, in Croatia and in many other countries. :)) Another application..... only for JW members??

34 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

The GB and it's Org agrees with God's word in the Bible on some things, so they get some things right, but it still does not PROVE that God is with them. 

Yes. That is the point.

In the video Brother Glockentin says:

"The good guidance from Jehovah's Organization during this pandemic is just another proof that Jehovah is with the Governing Body."

In my opinion, this GB Helper didn't take in consideration one famous and simple Jesus' quote, God giving sun and rain to wicked and to righteous.

In this verse we see how God is impartial. He see humans as own children, no matter of their own partiality and belongings. In "spirit" of these verse we can see also little further, an interesting messages.

a) How every individual will have His blessings about every good thing and effort for good he has, and                          b) How God will not stop you in your intentions, no matter are they good or bad    

Well, GB Helper has wrong perception about his own position and position of Institution, he represents, before God. 

Why would God give "separate and advanced knowledge" about Covid 19 to GB?, but left in "dark" whole secular world? Do you remember?  "Sun and rain" illustration !?