Srecko Sostar

40 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said:

I think if you guys want to see changes, it would take several million signatures from all countries you are located in, or a massive letter writing campaign like you  did with Russia.

.....or perhaps shareholders of WT Company can make some moves :)) 

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

This in itself is an assumption since 1919 reflects on the Bible Student Era and NOT JW's

According to WT publications JW's spiritual roots are from Abel, old Israel, first Christian congregation and then big jump to Russell and Bible Students ... till today :)))) How would JW's exist without Bible Student movement? JW's are legal successor of many things, including spiritual and material inheritance from Russell's child aka Bible Students later IBSA.

After Rutherford's takeover of Corporation he changed the name of the movement but with same Corporation mother.

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Anything before 1923 is considered public domain.

Anything what was published under the name of WT Corporation, before and after 1923, have to be questioned !! 

It is interesting to look at religious individuals and religious organizations who call for subjection on behalf secular authorities when that suites them (religious organization). But when not, they advocate for their religious rights and freedom of speech and loudly call for bible verse as explanation and justification of own disrespect and disobedience to secular laws in some other subject matter: "you must obey god more than men (secular authorities)". 

Obviously, in WTJWorg copyrights claims, main issue is not how to use and defend Trade and Copyrights laws in particular country, BUT The Company hard work to DEFEND WTJWorg Religious Teachings and Doctrines and Internal Policy that some other people found to be wrong or error or manipulation or not truth. 

Perhaps many of us/them are just, only ... Alien 

I am of the opinion that no non-JW or ex-JW, intends to use and presents WT published materials as their own. That is a ridiculous and impossible assumption. For everything that is used (in whole or in part) serves for a religious debate in which some advocate one opinion and others refute or ridicule it.

For the purpose of argumentation only: What reasonable person of the ranks of ex-JW would like to advocate the idea of FDS and GB since 1919 as his own? Intellectual property :)) and copyright. 

What ex-JW have intention to COPY / DUPLICATE such intellect? 

7 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Some of his comments and analyses of scripture echo what 'apostates' have banged on about for decades. I'm particularly thinking of his conclusion here:

"The “faithful and discreet slave” refers to any Christian who is
faithful and on the watch when Jesus comes as the judge in the
great tribulation. It does not refer to a class that gives spiritual
food during Christ’s presence." - p. 72.

 

It is interesting that some biblical passages are so “soft” that they can be shaped and reshaped so successfully. The existence of a large number of Christian interpretations and ideologies / religions proves this. 

5 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

@Srecko Sostar Naive? Possibly. I assume that his thinking is, if the GB rejects his approach, then at least he's abided by the direction in God's word and can take the moral/scriptural high ground, he has a clear conscience before God, etc. 

Naive, in sense: if he expecting, waiting for positive answer. 

In matter about his conscience, that is good biblical way how to deal with bro/sis.   

2 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

He says he approached the GB in the spirit of Matt. 18

It is sincerely naive approach. GB elders allow this sort of "communication" only at rank and file level for minor problems among congregants. But, even there, on this low ground field where ordinary members living, almost no one of JW's really understand how Mat 18 have to work when they are faced with internal problems. One reason for that is in elders who also not using Mat 18 with more understanding.

First obstacle is in gradation of "sins" as: "minor and gross". :))

On 5/1/2020 at 4:49 AM, Isabella said:

copyrights

I wonder this:

If all WT publications from past to the future is/are intellectual and material possession of The Company ... and each person who was, is and will be JW member need to have "Bible Study" BASED on WT publications, and to continue in this way ... WHO is owner of Member's  Faith and Beliefs .... BECAUSE he/she came to this Unique Faith and Beliefs ONLY because of studying and accepting Published Materials ??!! :))) 

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Of course. Obviously. What!—you think it is right that Christians should be followers of men? I think you mutter just for the sake of muttering.

God’s laws and principles are to be found in the Bible. That is where the guidance and boundaries are. That is where members are to go so as to grow spiritually. The hope is that they should grow to maturity, make decisions per God’s laws and principles, and do not just say, “What do you think, Srecko, so I can think just like you?”

Why do you think that i was "attack" your thought about:  Elders resist this because they are not trying to make their very own disciples. 

I didn't. It is just fine if they have this positive attitude. Nevertheless, if they have to be role-models of faith, to be imitated from non-elders members, than it can be said how there is a "little danger" of following the men. Even in general positive matters.

Because, i guess how every individual need to build own relation to god, and by that specific, individualized, original, unique way to god's hearth and friendship. I used word "friendship" purposely, because WT publication "pushing" this sort of relationship between members and god as something that have to be established. Of course, it is interesting to understand how god is in position to chose his friend, not we. Even in Abraham situation, he become His friend not because Abraham chose god, but opposite, god chose him. Also, between so many faithful people in the past, who loved god till death, only for one human is reported as been god's friend. (Do not confuse with idea: JHVH was Abraham's friend) ??!! Something to think about, isn't it? :)))  

Well, if somebody have ambition to not "follow" other individuals and/or organization, and/or elders in that organization, he/she have to establish specific "relationship" or if you like "friendship" with ONLY one person, or at least two; Jesus and JHVH. Because Jesus is the name given to people to get close to JHVH. Here we see another WTJWorg omission. They speaking about "friendship"  with JHVH, but "forget" to put Jesus in the center of searching. Because Jesus is The Way to Father.

You said well, elders are not worth to be followed, neither GB and WTJWorg. Because that is what is all about.  :))

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Elders resist this because they are not trying to make their very own disciples. 

I believe how more practical reason for such "resisting" would be in this: If you give advice to someone, you bear responsibility for content of advice if person implements it in own life situation and things go bad. 

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

seem to be saying that the W/t took it completely out of context, and that the statement was completely false. Is my assumption correct ?

Now the Organisation / Watchtower / CCJW / GB are supposed to be 'spirit directed' is this correct ?

If you add what TTH said to what you said then I cannot see any direction of Holy Spirit at all. 

It is possible to look on this and similar situations in WT history as in case below:

Mi·caiʹah then said: “Therefore, hear the word of Jehovah: I saw Jehovah sitting on his thronep and all the army of the heavens standing by him, to his right and to his left.q 20  Jehovah then said, ‘Who will fool Aʹhab, so that he will go up and fall at Raʹmoth-gilʹe·ad?’ And one was saying one thing while another said something else. 21  Then a spirit*r came forward and stood before Jehovah and said, ‘I will fool him.’ Jehovah asked him, ‘How will you do it?’ 22  He replied, ‘I will go out and become a deceptive spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’s So he said, ‘You will fool him, and what is more, you will be successful. Go out and do that.’

Even the most ignorant JW bible scholar could be able to understand this .... IF he apply it to themselves ---- JHVH already allowed deception on "chosen nation" before, why He could not do it again?

5 hours ago, Witness said:

comment reminds me of Satan’s ability to create counterfeits on all levels

Yes, and that is real danger. Because we can never be sure about ...

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

He was also quoted again here in the 1981 Kingdom book, just a year after the original quote:

*** kc chap. 14 p. 140 The King Reigns! ***
“THE GENERATION OF 1914”
  In a book of the above title, Robert Wohl “suggests that generations are not mathematically definable in terms of numbers of years, but cluster around major historical crises, of which the first world war is the supreme example.”—“The Economist,” March 15, 1980

"Generation" is cluster (of people) around major historical events.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

** w84 5/15 pp. 4-5 1914—The Generation That Will Not Pass Away ***
       In his book The Generation of 1914, professor of history Robert Wohl presents an unusual definition when he states: “A historical generation is not defined by its chronological limits or its borders. It is not a zone of dates . . . It is more like a magnetic field at the center of which lies an experience or a series of experiences. . . . What is essential to the formation of a generational consciousness is some common frame of reference that provides a sense of rupture with the past . . . This frame of reference is always derived from great historical events like wars, revolutions, plagues, famines, and economic crises.”
       From that point of view, the Great War of 1914-18 and its aftermath certainly formed a “frame of reference” to mark a generation.

"Historical generation" are people who have an experience or a series of experience.

In both examples we see how center of attention, limelight are not people but events or in Bible terminology "signs".

But, are they, "signs" in the eyes of the beholder trustful, reliable measure for conclusions? And as you mentioned before, what "signs" and events truly speaking? Are they beginning of start point or beginning of end point? Or, are they a means for help, for understanding  that it will become more difficult for each generation in each subsequent period marked by new and uncertain things, events, circumstances? 

Things can going from bad to worst, and they going in that direction for centuries. But also, we see how some things went from bad to better. It depends, all is in the eyes of beholder.     

Question is: Do they, as one group of people, who were part of some particular event or/and events that is of special significance for human, for nation, for individual (or for God) constitute "generation"? "Generation" in only one meaning and for only one purpose as WTJWorg done and still doing with "1914 Generation"?   

We could speak about specific event/s that marked some period of time, than that could include people of various ages and prominence/background, in one part of the world or on global scene. Biggest Tsunami in Philippine, biggest Hurricane in Florida, biggest earthquake in Croatia marks specific time period in particular part of world and by that particular people in that time frame when event occurred can be possible to put into "generation frame" as one of possible meaning according to Dictionaries. People of many various ages, nationality, ethnicity and religious, educational ... etc belongings, were part of one group of people (not generation in chronology sense) that were connected because of same, collective experience inside same event or inside same time frame . 

Perhaps using wording 1914 Generation (in various meaning and content, from: all people to wicked people to 144000 class to GB members) for this and such purpose (speaking about particular time period and events inside particular time frame) is not best choice and not describe real meaning and purpose.

Also, what is of main importance in connection to WTJWorg and Bible context. Their fixation on the year 1914 as start point of events and their fixation on particular people who was born in that year, who was old enough to saw that year events, who was part of something in that year, became Conceptual Problem for some time already. Only for that reason they came with "overlapping generation" . But, in fact they already accepted old meaning, from past till today, how generation, as term already means overlapping (b: a group of individuals born and living contemporaneously). In fact GB not invented nothing new but they just contributed to more confusion in already confusing doctrine and they try to stretch time frame little more, because narrow, strait life span of generation as partially biblical view is 70-80 years.  

 WTJWorg no longer have Basic 1914 Generation doctrine, because that doctrine, as religious truth, became religious lie. But they have need to continue with same wrong, err doctrine and continue with it. Lie with new wording - "overlapping generation". Since consumers in an OLG model are modeled as individuals who live for n periods (n ≥2), people born in n different periods (or n different generations) coexist in any given period t. While consumers die at the end of n periods, reproduction assures that there will be an infinite succession of consumers, each living for n periods. - https://www.encyclopedia.com/social-sciences/applied-and-social-sciences-magazines/overlapping-generations-model

For sure, WT doctrines Consumers coexist in any given period. ;)))

I would look on their religious problem with this thoughts. If they are enough aware how wrong they are and they were all this paste decades after 1914 generation died and not see fulfill about all promises that WT published, nowadays WT bible scholars and leaders missed opportunity and moment to throw away all that errors. And to purified themselves. But with upgrading old misconception they inherited from past leaders, they (today leadership) purposely entering into darker space. Why? Because of reason to justified old error they constructed new fixation with intention to cover old error. And such mental process with this sort of product from these individuals, made them to be religious fraudsters or liars.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

as a vital helper of the GB.

It is interesting to notice how WTJWorg Managers took bible terminology for Holy Spirit, that is "Helper", and transfer it to Humans who replaced HS and became Helpers for one part of "anointed" aka GB. When GB claim how not even they and no one else in JW chuch is "inspired" by HS, it is understandable why they need another sort of helping from "Helpers" who also have nothing with HS.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Shortly afterward, Cornelius, the “uncircumcised“  Roman Centurion, and those with him, received the anointing of Holy Spirit. (Acts 10:44,45)

After he received HS, with gift or gifts that is/are unknown to us because Bible not spoke about that, we also have no report did Cornelius became elder, missioner, member of Jerusalem Body, or member of some Christian "Branch Office" in other part of the world, left service in Roman army ... etc, etc.

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

it means that anyone born in the time of the 1914-generation is still part of the 1914-generation.

As far as I know (I do not know the exact history and origin of such a calculation) a period of one year or 12 months is the framework for measuring the term - generation. So, all persons born within those 12 months of a given year can be considered to be one (1) generation. Every person born after December 31st in a given year, becomes part of some other generation from the following year with the date of January 1. This is a normal and common understanding of the term generation. And it works still today between people with normal, common sense. :))) 
Everything else one wants to add as an explanation for the purpose of defending the idea of GB about the "overlapping generation" is nothing but religious entanglements that should support a failed organized-religious concept of a failed ideology that is still alive in WTJWorg.
Most here have finished high school. When you graduated, what generation of graduates were you? What generation of graduates do you still belong to today? To my generation, was born in 1961? Or my father generation who was born in 1923? ............. Or you belong to both (triple) generations of graduates in the same time because you were born in 1949? 

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Like...a smoke alarm?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Even the voice of S. Lett made me to visual his facial expressions ... it is impossible to erase picture of him giving the talk, ... must be some sort of OCD in my head :))))) 

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Many JWs here in UK are window cleaners. 

What? None of them making tents? :)))

On 5/11/2020 at 12:06 AM, Arauna said:

Paul made tents while preaching. He set a good example for all of us.

Would you give a guess, what would Paul doing today if he would be in JW congregation? What sort of job for living?

On 5/9/2020 at 4:16 AM, Arauna said:

I know of many older ones who have to work and pioneer - like Paul did.  They trust in jehovah.

On 5/9/2020 at 4:16 AM, Arauna said:

I read on this forum recently how you guys pulled brother Lett apart for owning a property which could be sold and used together with his pension when older. He was wise ...

If it is advice to be as Paul, ....than why all this people in WT branches living on other people money donations?!

Don't you think how your response on this ex pioneer letter is inappropriate. GB members, and Lett specifically, publicly asking for more donation, money. Why he and other in his team not get secular jobs and give money from own salaries?? That would be better way to show "trust" in JHVH. And not just better way, but according to "inspired" Paul Letters. Mr Lett TV preaching (call for money) is not "inspired", according to WT publications.

On 5/16/2020 at 12:32 AM, Anna said:

This could be the case, but it is difficult to imagine why Jehovah would pick someone who is crazy.

WT publications explained something about similar on "anointed". While they are on earth and imperfect as any other human, they would be able to understand, from heaven, same sort of people they used to be in the past. :))

On 5/16/2020 at 12:32 AM, Anna said:

So put those two together and we could understand why Malefant concluded that we can trust that the GB are of the anointed.

Malenfant sort and model of argumentation was for one purpose only,  to show how exclusively GB is "appointed for sure" and have something to say. Contrary, every other appointed JW member have to be in question and under suspicion about his "call".

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

When it comes to imitating their judgements, we should follow their lead depending on how well their conduct turns out. (Their "conduct" would include how their past judgments have turned out, including those temporary "frames.".)

The time test is one way things are revealed. Inside years and decades when other following their conduct and imitate their decisions, many are affected with things that much later will be found as wrong.

But that is the price we all pays no matter what it is about.

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

To the extent that they were not convinced in their own mind, then yes, they were potentially going against their own conscience.

Exceptional mental effort is required to constantly re-examine one's own and others' opinions, ideas, beliefs, rules, doctrines. That is hard to achieve and I think we rarely succeed in that. And we need more time. That is why we have success only at periodic intervals. :))

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

You already know that this is not done on purpose. It is done because the WT believes those teachings worth disfellowshipping over are both true and important. While there may be false or at least questionable teachings, the personz doing the disfellowshipping are sure they are performing a sacred service, rooting out apostates, etc.

47 minutes ago, Witness said:

JWI, these two sentences seem to be contradictory.  If disfellowshipping (judging, "killing" a servant of Christ) an individual is based on WT's "true and important" teachings being rejected (that turn out not to be true and important), then it is done on purpose. 

40 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

That's a stretch of logic. No one is saying that all DFs are done correctly, but you can't say that a mistake is done on purpose just because it turned out to be wrong. A teacher can mark a student wrong for spelling potato as potatoe, but that doesn't mean the teacher made the mistake on purpose. Disfellowshipping is not "killing." That's just another mistake, too. Jehovah sees the heart no matter what mistakes are made on earth.

JW's Judicial Committees is formed after elders came to knowledge about some wrongs that was done inside congregations. We making focus here on "doctrinal wrongs" made by members. In this logic every Committee have purpose and they gathered for one purpose. To correct  member or to exclude him.

JC working by The Book. These are: Bible, WT publications, internal Letters and Manuals and are powered with elders experience and motivations and outside influence coming from other prominent persons. 

JW's who lived in period when, for example, human organ transplantation had been considered as "sin" against Bible and God and "deserved" disfellowshipping of "wrongdoers", that would mean, from their (elders of those time) standpoint and view, how JC made "justified decision" in "given frames".

But, spiritual and doctrinal "frames" are relative. It had been relative in the past, and they are relative today too. Because of enough experience about this, JW elders who serve in JC must be wiser and more discreet. And if they must dfd somebody let that be for really rudimentary, basic things and not about "quarrels over words and customs" aka about things, doctrines that no one not know for sure, but all only speculate how something maybe looks like.

Should we judge and blame elders who acted according to false knowledge, err instructions and deceived "sound mind"? We can do that. Because they put their trust in other human, WT Top Management aka Directors later called GB and not JHVH and Jesus as they claimed and taught members from stage.  

On other hand ...., Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be^[a] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be^[b] loosed in heaven." ..... also sounds very stretched just as a idea that elders are appointed by holy spirit. 

Nevertheless, we still have what Jehovah’s Word says about proper conduct and how matters should be decided. We can, in effect, determine what has already been decided on a matter in the heavens. Admittedly, due to human imperfections, mistakes in judgment are made at times, but this only emphasizes even more the need to adhere closely to the instructions in Jehovah’s Word in handling matters so as to be assured that what is decided is what has already been decided in heaven. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1981092

According to this, if WT elders, who acted in all past period of time and who acting today, under temporary "given frames" knew/know what was already been decided on a matter in the heavens because they have guidance of holy spirit than our discussion will be useful to only few who is in dilemma about elder's decision making process. :))