Srecko Sostar

The time test is one way things are revealed. Inside years and decades when other following their conduct and imitate their decisions, many are affected with things that much later will be found as wrong. But that is the price we all pays no matter what it is about. Exceptional mental effort is required to constantly re-examine one's own and others' opinions, ideas, beliefs, rules, doctrines. That is hard to achieve and I think we rarely succeed in that. And we need more time. That is why we have success only at periodic intervals. :))

JW's Judicial Committees is formed after elders came to knowledge about some wrongs that was done inside congregations. We making focus here on "doctrinal wrongs" made by members. In this logic every Committee have purpose and they gathered for one purpose. To correct member or to exclude him. JC working by The Book. These are: Bible, WT publications, internal Letters and Manuals and are powered with elders experience and motivations and outside influence coming from other prominent persons. JW's who lived in period when, for example, human organ transplantation had been considered as "sin" against Bible and God and "deserved" disfellowshipping of "wrongdoers", that would mean, from their (elders of those time) standpoint and view, how JC made "justified decision" in "given frames". But, spiritual and doctrinal "frames" are relative. It had been relative in the past, and they are relative today too. Because of enough experience about this, JW elders who serve in JC must be wiser and more discreet. And if they must dfd somebody let that be for really rudimentary, basic things and not about "quarrels over words and customs" aka about things, doctrines that no one not know for sure, but all only speculate how something maybe looks like. Should we judge and blame elders who acted according to false knowledge, err instructions and deceived "sound mind"? We can do that. Because they put their trust in other human, WT Top Management aka Directors later called GB and not JHVH and Jesus as they claimed and taught members from stage. On other hand ...., Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be[a] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[b] loosed in heaven." ..... also sounds very stretched just as a idea that elders are appointed by holy spirit. Nevertheless, we still have what Jehovah’s Word says about proper conduct and how matters should be decided. We can, in effect, determine what has already been decided on a matter in the heavens. Admittedly, due to human imperfections, mistakes in judgment are made at times, but this only emphasizes even more the need to adhere closely to the instructions in Jehovah’s Word in handling matters so as to be assured that what is decided is what has already been decided in heaven. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1981092 According to this, if WT elders, who acted in all past period of time and who acting today, under temporary "given frames" knew/know what was already been decided on a matter in the heavens because they have guidance of holy spirit than our discussion will be useful to only few who is in dilemma about elder's decision making process. :))

Thanks for respond. I can't take this explanation to be useful in defending Malenfant reasoning. After he told how no one in congregations knows who of anointed really received heavenly calling (congregants can only assume, guess and speculate, with visual observation, with the help of literal sight, how individuals who partaking symbols possibly have heavenly calling, as he explained) he went beyond own reasoning and conclusion and presentation about issue, and made second guess, thesis about same subject. In his next demonstration about same class, 144000 kings and priests who are all equal in this position before god, he put his personal (or small group) opinion above general, official doctrine presented few seconds before. It is known how WTJWorg published how some anointed are emotionally and mentally imbalanced, ill and partaking in symbols. And by that concluding how god will not choose such individual. But Malenfant stated how this relationship is of personal relationship and very private matter. Well, who we are to interfere if god want few "crazy" people to go to heaven??!! On other hand, when you said:... and that might be a little difficult if for example someone who has obvious mental problems claims to be anointed. However, it should be a lot easier if that person is of sound mind. If we are able to detect who is with mental problems and who have sound mind, it can be useful. But, what sort of mind (person) would/will devil use more for his purpose to deceive humankind with false doctrines? "Sound mind" or "mentally and emotionally disturbed mind"?? I am pretty sure in your answer :))

Malenfant: ".....after all JHVH has blessed them, they fulfill Bible prophecy about FDS. There are certain things that we acquire knowledge about and were convinced of. We see JHVH favor on them, we have no doubt that JHVH blessing is upon their effort to take of the domestic and provide spiritual food all of us. But there's something we don't know. We have nothing to do with the final sealing. That is a personal thing that take place between individual and JHVH god and ..... that's what we're told and that's what we understand ..." Listen what words he used to prove the subject: after all, they fulfill prophecy, were convinced of, we have no doubt that JHVH is upon their effort, that's what we're told and that's what we understand. Empty proves for spiritual blind mind to be convinced into deception, again.

I mean - precisely! Please accept my apologize for grammar error

Yes @Witness , you do preciously*, exactly summarized in a few words main message that this JW elder send to JW people. No one else of "anointed" around the world is/represents nothing in WTJWorg, but only few of them in GB behaves as head of Organization and elevates themselves above all other anointed in the Body. It seems they acting as Head of Body or at least as the Neck (as in joke, man is head of his wife but she is the neck who rotate head )) PS * precisely!

As @JW Insider emphasized about reasonableness, i would look at Jesus words and on practicing his words with little caution. Pharisees commanded not to work on Sabbath, for example. .... Well, Jesus done the opposite and he did not participate in do all the things they tell you.

It seems how WT Society have only one group of "anointed generation", and that is present GB. In his morning worship talk Mr. Malenfant explained this: "we don't need to know all names of the anointed on earth today, .... ... in our congregations we see the emblems being passed and we can see individuals partaking in ... ...it would be pointless to try and ascertain who among God's servants will eventually be part of 144000. The final judgement and sealing of the anointed is very private matter between JHVH and individual anointed ones...... .. and i might also add at this point. Even though we don't know about that personal relationship that comes about, we don't experience it ourselves, but we are convinced, for example, that the members of the GB have the heavenly calling." Mr Malenfant is person who can control his curiosity about things no one knows, not even he, but it seems how he knows all about that personal relationship and very private matter that supposedly exist between GB members and JHVH. :))) and he try to manipulate audience with this "confidential information".

It is possible, and not only very possible, but Elijah (Jonah, Jeremiah and Job too) asking god for death, because of depressed state of mind (Samson, Saul, Saul's arms bearer and Ahitofel succeeded in suicide wish. Even people, whose we do not perhaps consider as "mentally ill, diseased" or "spiritually weak" as faithful god's servants, showed exactly that, mental illness. Wishing to be dead is not what "normal" people ask for. What situations in life can bring that even "normal" and faithful religious individual (JW's or any other believer) come to "mental imbalance"? One of reason is/can be Flip-Flop with religious doctrines inside WTJWorg, for sure. After 40 years in WTJWorg it is not of surprise that i am just one of many (JW) ex-JW who was thought by WT Educational System to not going into the wisdom of these ("worldly") world and avoid anything that is opposite of Bible teachings. Bear in mind that i had been connected with JW church (as many other JW's) through my parents from earliest childhood. According to that, i stayed ignorant about many things, not just about governmental system :))))

Mental illnesses are also called mental disorders. They are extremely common in the population. Australia and US 1 of 5 live with mental illness, globally 1 of 10. https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/mental-illness https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/mental-illness.shtml https://ourworldindata.org/mental-health List of disorders is long. https://www.verywellmind.com/a-list-of-psychological-disorders-2794776 There are nearly 300 mental disorders listed in the DSM-5 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders). This is a handbook used by health professionals to help identify and diagnose mental illness. - https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/types-of-mental-illness 1) Does "free will", as gift from god or as our imagined concept, contribute to this problem, cause it? Always present problem of what we want and wish on one side and what we may, must and should on another. 2) Is Gospel sort of magnet for "disturbed and imbalanced" people, if we have in mind who, what sort of people Jesus called and expected to follow Him (people who are rejected from society, who "suffered" )? 3) Does, whether JW's who left WTJWorg are good material to be more imbalanced and have mental issues? Or Organization as complete/ finalized system created individuals who would/will be "lost" without Organization? ......etc.

As individuals they are accountable not as a group. Well, JTR is right in his conclusion for a very long time :))

You have fine sense for humor. Our only goal here is to rise numbers of Member's Total Reputation, and best way for that, according to Forum, is to up-vote or like someone's comment. :))))

You made here excellently important point. Claims in WT publications said how Jesus and JHVH made examination and had chosen Them in 1919. WT members in those time, and members today have only such claims in publications at which they can put their trust. If Jesus and JHVH were involved than holy spirit was also involved in this appointed of anointed in WT Society. By all what is visible in Bible records we can conclude how people who claiming their appointed was done by those 3 are in dangerous position if holy spirit was not involved and if it is involved in process of appointing then or any time later. If holy spirit had nothing with their appointing than GB and all FDS inside WT Society speaking lies or if they are self deceived that makes them false teachers. If holy spirit did had something with past appointing of people in 1919, that not automatically making all who came later (after 1919) in WT Society to be also "appointed" and "chosen" by holy spirit. Because, it is well known how looked past hierarchic and how looks today this hierarchy in management of Organization. We see how elders are appointed, if they fulfilling some obligated recommendations according to some Bible verses. In such cases humans are those who making observation and recommendation and put individual on position. Holy spirit is not involved in that process, but elders in particular area/congregation. People who take symbols considers themselves as "anointed". Here we have another, different situation. People around this individuals are able to make conclusion about them primary on visible fact how they eat bread and drink red wine. But that also not making some individual to be really "anointed". Well, if GB siting on "Moses chair", because they participate in symbols, that not automatically makes them to be appointed by holy spirit, but can make them guilty before holy spirit. My business is not to remove them from "chair", but to not believe in every spirit who speaking "amazing things".

If Moses made only that one famous mistake, i would expect from God to forgive him, and not in the future time, after/with Resurrection, but in the very moment in the past. Perhaps God thought how Moses need extra lesson. It is interesting how You made conclusion, about GB, how they making similar mistakes as Moses, but not deserve immediate punishment as in his case. Does this mean how GB never was and never will make such sort of "mistake" and will enter into Promised Land despite those "mistakes"? What makes GB's and Moses's mistakes to be so different and not calls for same sort of treatment, not calls for using same Principles ??

Perhaps same treatment and attitude was used by Kremlin about JW letters ? ... I gather that they receive a steady stream of these from ones who indicate from their very first words that they are unhinged. For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1 21 What if Jan Kosonen's "foolishness" is wisdom of God?

"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” - Mat 19:9 "But I tell you, everyone who looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." - Mat 5:28 Now, we have a little problem. WTJWorg forget to put meaning of what adultery is from Mat 5.28 definition, "looks at woman with lust" .... is already adultery. Or we can expand application on each and every, on woman who looks on man, or on one homosexual/lesbian who looks on other heterosexual person or on another homosexual/lesbian person with lust. Well, WTJworg definition of "por.nei'a" is not perfect, it is with a significant disadvantage. "Unlawful sexual intercourse" or por.nei'a, according to Jesus, is "looks with lust". Taken from this, husband and wife just need to see, to prove to self, how some of them has/had that "looks with lust" and is free to divorce and to remarry. :))

I am not historian neither someone who read lot of history book. I am only aware of fact how all past time world's powers and few modern countries been or are sort of liberators for one people and oppressors for other people, for other countries.

Old Testament (Jew Law) promote few sorts of slavery, males (men) as owners of females (women) wars for land, superiority of one nation (ethnic and religious belonging, common among all nations until today). As any other nation old Jew nation have had good and bad things to show us. Their patriarchal system was customary for those time. Even Jesus, as i used Bible verse before, said - Jesus said: “Whoever divorces his wife...". Here is notable to see how man is in position to decide about divorce of his wife. Wife is not in position to divorce her husband. Law established this order. Wife is in possession of her husband, and not conversely. Well yes, we have old and new philosophy. :)) Perhaps all people are equal before God. But women are not equal before/with men :)))

This is just one of few questions, and not rightly addressed to/for me, but for You too. Issue of "acceptance" and "beliefs" in/about religious matters, here, is in focus, of course. Individual inner sense, feeling about past events and records about such events is question or decision for individual to make. Something about issues we put in focus, is not reasonable to put as black and white format, and to say how not accepting your's beliefs is wrong. If i would say how i am fully accept Jesus and Gospel, that doesn't mean how in the same time i have to accept WTJWorg and GB doctrines, because of their claim how only they "have the truth" about Jesus and Gospel. :)) ..... and exactly that is the question you have to deal with.

https://www.lansingstar.com/news-archive/11090-local-farmers-concerned-about-kingdom-farm-sale

What ever would be object/subject of our looking .... we are able to make that particular look to be sin of various gradation and intensity . Well, as imperfect or perfect human we shall be involved in particular situation and be in deep .....

You strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel Jesus said: “Whoever divorces his wife, except on the ground of fornication [porneia, gross sexual immorality], and marries another commits adultery.” (Matt. 19:9) - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1980570 One of problem here in verse is patriarchal look on world. Men are first and above women and above anything else. I don't know did Jesus really told this or not. If He is, i don't know why He said it this way and what sort of implications and complications would be if two married people make agreement and each go own way to form new family or new marriage with or without children. Because if two stay in problematic marriage there is also implications and complications.... for the rest of their life. Jesus entering completely new view on life and religion. I would expect from Him to understand all sort of problems and deviations and Bethel's PilowGate Instructions and examples in which human directives adding to world's injustice and tragedy ....inside "His" church. I guess, male people masturbated, was homosexuals and practice sodomy, in His time too, so how come to that, that He didn't mentioned nothing about such situations, that GB Helpers needed to add appendix and upgrade Master's teaching? Jesus was aware, i guess, how women in His time was dependable on men's world, in many aspects including financial dependence. But, whether He would heal on Saturday or not? Would Jesus give advice and recommendation to sister in congregation how she should stay in marriage with sodomite husband or just separate and be alone and miserable for rest of her life?? Or would He encourage her to pray more and preach more and be regular on every meeting and all problem will gone?? Would Solomon say; bring me a sword and i will cut it into two peaces, a piece for each one of you?

... i agree completely :)) ... my ideas are imperfect !

Humans, not only You, but every of us, many times contradicting to themselves. If you want to be submissive to your leaders, than there is no place for "exploring new ideas", because you have to wait for new ideas coming from GB and Helpers. What you teach is not your ideas, but GB ideas. If you "chat" about "improper ideas" with others you are walking "around the edge", according to JW publications. "Causing division" is something normal according to Jesus, because he told how His teaching will cause family members to be apart, to renounce and to hate, according to Matt 10 and Luke 14.

I suppose how private activity of giving gifts is "normal", with or without signature. GB members representing Private Company, an Organization with millions of members. But most of all they said how they representing and mediating between JHVH, Jesus and JW members. In this aspect, all their activity is not just "normal activity", because they working on behalf of WTJWorg, and all their decisions and behavior, private and public, have to be looked through another glasses.